EXPO Odds to be released this month!

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llamapacker

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I posted the following message at the end of Hawkeye's thread entitled "Request to MDF on behalf of SFW". As that thread has become quite long, I though I would share this information with everyone.
Bill
-----------

I recieved an e-mail today from Ryan Foutz of SFW. It read, in part:

"I appreciate your email & concern and wanted to let you know that Byron Bateman (SFW) & Miles Moretti (MDF) have agreed to place the Expo drawing odds for the past 5 years on the WHCE website. These should be on the Expo website within the next 2 weeks if not sooner at www.huntexpo.com (the new 2012 website is being put together and should be done with updated schedule, floor layout, entertainment, seminars etc.)

The drawing odds will be by hunt unit & by species."

Thank you Ryan and Miles for coming to this decision. Thank YOU Hawkeye for bird dogging this issue to a successful conclusion. I'm sure there will be some with trust issues until the data is released. To a certain degree, I am included in this group. I have faith the groups will do what they say on this issue. I am hopeful they won't try to obfuscate the odds by lumping archery with general rifle, premium, etc., but instead give us complete odds by hunt choice as broken down on the hunt application form. As I recall, there were approximately 92 different hunt choices on the application form (92 x $5 = $460. May not be exact, but I think this is close.). I am expecting to see the odds for each of these $5 hunt choices.

When SFW and MDF publishes these odds, my opinion of the organizations will rise, and I will consciously consider renewing memberships in these groups. Thanks again to Hawkeye and everyone who helped put the pressure on to get this data released.

Bill
 
Bill-

Thank you for the update. I had not heard that a decision was made. I am looking forward to seeing what information is posted and how it is compiled. If it were up to me, I would suggest something as simple as breaking down the various hunts by weapon and then posting (1) the total number of tags; (2) the total number of applicants; and (3) the actual drawing odds (e.g., 1 in 454). This is essentially what the DWR does. See http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/2010_biggame_odds.pdf

Thank you SFW and MDF for listening to the public on this issue. Some will gripe that this should have happened long ago but I believe in the old saying, "better late than never!"

I think this goes to show that we as hunters can make a difference and effect change if we will educate ourselves on the issues, work together, and follow through on issues even though change may not come quickly. Thank you to everyone who got involved.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Awesome. Great job J-Hawk, and way to stay on top of it. We all owe you.

It's about dang time. This stuff should have been available from day one. It's a dirty shame that it took so many man hours and so much complaining to get these groups to show their cards.
 
Great news and I hope things will start going in a positive direction because stuff that was on that other thread sure can't be doing either organization any good!
 
Great news. Props to Hawkeye and others for their diligent work on resolving this perplexing issue to the satisfaction of all.

Eldorado
 
I received a follow-up from Ryan with the following information:

"Right you are????they will be posted by Hunt unit, species with the odds being reflective like ?1 in 376????..it will be specific and have clarity so I think everyone will be satisfied.

Here is an example??..

Species Location Type Weapon Applicants Tags Odds 1 in:
Buck Deer Book Cliffs Limited Entry Any Weapon 6026 9 670


We are working on this and should have it out very soon."

I can't copy the table above accurately, but it will have all the information requested, and is everything I ever hoped for and expected. Excellent. In the above example, it shows 6,026 people applied for a Book Cliffs Limited Entry Any Weapon tag. They issued 9 of these tags, so the odds become 1:670. This is full transparency in my mind, and I will once again express my thanks to MDF and SFW for releasing this data. Thanks Ryan and thanks Hawkeye.

Bill
 
I just received an email from Eric Tycksen of MDF stating that MDF and SFW "are meeting on June 21st to finalize the decision on releasing the odds but I'm sure it will happen soon." It sounds like they are still working out the details but the odds will be made availble soon.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Hawkeye is like a God to us nobody hunters!

Thanks for all your time and effort for all of us that mean nothing to the big Con Org's.

Thanks llamapacker for your follow up validation!!

Robb
 
Well done Hawkeye!!! Too bad(yeah you knew it was coming) they didn't do this on there own from the start. Would have saved a lot of issues and hassles on their part!
 
oh wow, yes thanks, this is surely going to help wildlife, I am now going to sleep better knowing the odds of the expo tags will finally be posted, I have been waiting and loosing much sleep over this issue, but once we have the odds I will be able to sleep once again. Thanks for your effort to get this done, I sure wish more effort would be wasted on such an important issue. Lets not worry about why our deer herds are decreasing, why our predators are not being controlled better, and why we keep loosing mule deer hunting opportunity. Its like I stated in a RAC meeting once, we seem to have more public attend the mule deer agenda and put their $.02 in, but there is nobody that comes to the predator meetings, such as lions, bear to ask why we are not controlling some of the factors that are killing mule deer. I will state it again and houndsmen can hate me all they want, Yes Lions and Bear eat deer. Yes we have a bear problem, and Yes they eat fawns. Take the fawn stats. Cache area seems to have the best fawn survival rate, and look at their bear population, little to non bear. Look at book cliffs, Lasal, san juan elk ridge, fawn survival very little, bear population extremely high.
Anyway thanks for getting the expo draw odds though this will help our deer herds I am sure of it.
Yes I am having a bad day,.
 
+!

One of many factors keeping our fawn recruitment low. Along with highway mortality, habitat, and human pressure of many types. However, this effort to find reasons to harass some folks that are trying to do something to fix some of these pressures on our deer may cause some of these folks to stop trying. I believe this harassment will continue relentlessly , on some other front, until those that are trying find themselves spending more time responding to these kinds of demands rather than working to help wildlife. Which is of course the intent. How unfortunate and short sided.

Under current conditions, there is every reason to believe our mule deer herds will never recover. We allowed them to slip away in the late 1980's and nothing we've tried to do has brought them back and we continue to find ever reason under the sun to hold them down.

We will look back twenty years from now and see our public lands devoid of mule deer and we shall have far less hunting opportunity for our posterity and we shall have ourselves to thank.

There is no smoke hiding what this is effort is about. All this over drawing odds at some State hosted hunting celebration, I think will throw up.

What a miserable, sorry bunch we are.

DC
 
Deloss and Travis-

I can appreciate the fact that you two could care less about the actual drawing odds for the Expo or that this information was promised long ago. As I mentioned before, there are many people who have no interest in this information. There are also people who could care less what SFW and MDF do with the monies generated from conservation and convention permits because they either know the key individuals involved with these groups or they appreciate some the efforts and projects that these groups are involved in. To those of you who feel this way, more power to you.

I, however, feel differently and so do many others I have spoken with. In my mind, it comes down to a few basic principles. First, this information was promised long ago. I am happy that these groups are finally living up to commitments previously made. Second, these tags are a public resource and I think we as the hunting public have a right to this information. Third, there should be certain checks and balances and protections in place because these permits are a public resource. Increased transparency and accountability are a very good thing and will only increase the level of support and trust in these conservation groups. There is no reason why these groups cannot follow through on their comittment to release this information and still push forward with the many positive efforts they are engaged in.

If you think our request for information somehow makes us anti-hunting or anti-conservation then you are absolutely wrong. The key individuals who have been pushing this effort are committed hunters and outdoorsman who also believe in responsibility and accountability.

I hope this post does not make Deloss vomit again (twice in one morning). :)


Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
I am surprised this thread lasted a whole day until there was a complaint about SFW.

If you can do something better, do it!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-09-11 AT 12:42PM (MST)[p]TOPGUN More than bad hair, my friend. How about 25 years of indigestion. Truthful, I respect your passion and your support for sport hunting, wildlife and the life style. I've followed your posts and appreciated your PM's and recommendations for many months. I don't know you beyond your MM personality but based on my read of who you are and where your coming from I believe you might react to the over arching issues differently if you had lived in Utah's shoes for the last 30 years. Could be wrong and I could be reading you wrong, I don't think so.

Regarding vomiting again, I never enjoyed it the first time and twice in one morning is even more revolting.

Regarding what I care and don't care about. I care about everything affecting wildlife and the lifestyle. I care so damn much it makes me want to puke. I care about anything that effects public hunting and how hunting may or may not be effected in a negative or positive way. I care how individuals and groups push and pull the systems in the short term and even more concerned with long term consequence associated with the push and pull.

Some think what they are doing will have a positive over all effect regarding this particular issue, I disagree and I'm convinced it is having a negative short term effect and believe it will have far more negative long term effect.

Coercing people into a corner (a meeting) wherein the primary intent is to find an Achilles heel, rather than to garner knowledge or understanding, and after all is said and done finding the Expo drawing odds as the only issue of importance is more than disgusting. It's sickening. Claiming that your protecting the public, looking out for the sport, caring about transparency and integrity while masking other objectives and ambitions is, in my opinion, disingenuous at the very least.

Rather than just admitting they dislike what SFW and now MDF does or tries to do, or they don't like the personalities, or they don't the way SFW and now MDF received or rejected their personal wants or ideas, they resort to smoke and mirrors, claiming they like all the good things and are just wanting to correct some problems. Wrong, they want them gone. They want their ideas, methods, influence and personalities gone. After listening, reading and observing their behavior you can never convince me otherwise.

Let suppose they're successful and SFW and MDF pack up and go. Gone. Zero input, zero effort, zero impact. Not a ripple. Will these public guardians step up and fix our hunting/wildlife problems? Are these noble and idealistic demolition parties going to tear it done and rebuild it or just rip it down for the satisfaction of riping it down?

Are these the future leaders of our culture and our life style?

Yes, I throw up again as I read their justifications.

DC
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-09-11 AT 01:07PM (MST)[p]
2lumpy---Thank you for the compliments, Sir! I would have to say that all I can go by is what I read on the Forums and it does appear that Utah is one screwed up state when it comes to the F&G Dept, or whatever they call it there, from all the negative comments the Utah members post about the state's methods or lack of them for the most part. It sounds like Utah is more political in the wildlife scheme of things than any state I know of from what a lot of the members are saying and that is true of why our entire country is so screwed up. There are just too danged many people that are only looking out for themselves and want more power than are working for the good of all IMHO. Again, I don't know any of the members you are disgruntled with, just as I don't know you, but I hope you are incorrect in your assessment of their motives. I would like to think that all of us on this site are passionate lovers of wildlife, the outdoors and outdoor life style, even though there is a lot of polarity in what each of us thinks should be attempted or accomplished in order to pass what many have taken for granted on to future generations.
 
Could be. We do have much good things here too, our elk herds have flourished, turkeys have made a magnificent come back, we have had improving moose herds, growing mountain goat heads and struggling but improving sheep herds. So not everything is rotten in Denmark but we love our mule deer and we love to hunt them. For the last 60 years they have been the back bone of our hunting life style and our outdoor culture, almost irrational passion for mule deer hunting exists here. As the deer herd numbers have declined it has created gut wrenching struggles between the state agencies, the sportsmen, the landowners, the merchants, the politicians and everyone in between. As is human nature we all see things from our own perspectives and conflicts abound. Some take these opportunities to try to do good, some take these opportunities to do otherwise. Sorting it out is not easy and must be confusing for someone looking at if from a distance. Heaven knows, it confusing beyond belief for those of us that live in it.

Eastern and midwestern State have experienced a different pattern or so it seems. In the last 60 years, in the Eastern and midwestern States whitetail deer have come roaring back from the brink, providing more opportunity rather than shrinking opportunity, their battles have been quite different than ours as a result. However I see trends beginning in those States that may not be so great in the future either.

Our hunting culture is certainly worth holding on to not getting any easier, in my opinion.

DC
 
Good post that I can just about agree 100% with. The problems the mule deer is having is all over it's range and not just Utah, as I'm sure you're aware of. They are so different from the whitetails that can literally live in people's back yards and flourish that it's ridiculous. In fact, the whitetail deer is disliked by most passionate mule deer people I know and most would like to eliminate them completely. One lady rancher I talked to out in Wyoming is starting to be overrun with whitetails and antelope in the river bottom that she ranches to the point where she would like to kill every one of them to keep "her" mule deer thriving!
 
DeLoss-

I am not going to argue with you because it appears that you have already made up your mind that anyone who questions these groups or pushes for transparency and accountability are somehow part of the anti-hunting community or have some personal agenda against Don Peay and the others involved. This simply is not accurate. All I can say is that you do not know me and you are painting with a very broad brush. I personally do not agree with the idea that if a group or organization is engaged in some positive things then they get a free pass on any issue or concern. Likewise, I reject the notion that by raising legitimate questions we suddenly become the enemy. Discussion and dialogue are healthy and beneficial so long as it is civil and respectful.

I am likewise sorry that you are ?sickened? by the fact that we had the audacity to request a meeting with these groups, show up to those meetings and engage in an honest and respectful dialogue, and then follow up on those discussions. In my mind, that is how adults resolve issues and concerns. There were no ?smoke and mirrors? involved and nobody was ?cornered? as you suggest. Rather, adults met voluntarily and engaged in a respectful, public discussion. Frankly, I would like to know how you would suggest that somebody raise an issue or concern with these groups. If what we did was somehow inappropriate, then what is the proper approach?

Have a nice day and please try to control you vomiting on public forums.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Hey hawkeye, just wanted to send a big high five! Thanks for all the effort which you have put into this.With as busy as everyone is these days it's easy to put an issue such as this on the back burner for some other time.My hats off to you. I sure am glad I'm not the only one that wants to see this ship get turned around and it will be people like you who will get it done!

Thanks again!
 
Oh boy! Here we go again!

I just love all the holier-than-thou, look what I did, stuff. (It will surely benefit the wildlife. LMAO)

I think I'll go puke too.

Zeke
 
Thanks again Hawkeye,

I am one that definitely cares about the accountability and transparency of these organizations and I too am glag they are moving in the right direction.

I still want to see data showing that the appropriate amount of monies are being spent on Wildlife, but this is a step to that end.

And for those of you like Woodruffhunter who simply don't understand why transparency and accountability are so important simply look at what is happening with the world economy, and more importantly the US economy.

Do you understand how we got into this mess? Most would say it is all very complicated. However, it is really very simple. De-regualtion led to the lack of transparency and accountability.

Give any organization power and the ability to take money and do with it as it pleases without the proper tranparency and accountability and they will abuse it.

I would sure hope anyone can see how important this concept is.

Ultimately I care so much about our Wildlife that I want to make sure all of the applicable money is being spent to that end!

If this makes me a non-sportsman then guilty as charged!
 
I am just so wore out from many--many--many years of all this SFW crapola...

ALWAYS------freaking---ALWAYS.....

Turning fellow hunters against fellow hunters....

Robb
 
I only want to see the expo odds posted just to see how extremly lucky I'am having drew an elk tag this year!!
 
What I learned from this thread is, If you ask questions, follow up on promises, want to know where money is being spent that is made from a public resource then you are anti-hunting, a whiner and have some secret anti SFW agenda and are the cause of declining Mule deer populations. However, if you just stick your head in the sand, do what your told, don't ask questions, believe everything your told, then you are the almighty savior of Mule deer. I think I'll puke now.
 
O_S_O_K said:

"And for those of you like Woodruffhunter who simply don't understand why transparency and accountability are so important simply look at what is happening with the world economy, and more importantly the US economy"

I will be OK speaking for myself and do not put words in my mouth. I am trying to figure out how you came up with that idiotic statement/quote from my previous post?

If you have something personal against me, go ahead and send me a PM. Hopefully, that was clear ENOUGH!
 
>I am just so wore out
>from many--many--many years of all
>this SFW crapola...
>
>ALWAYS------freaking---ALWAYS.....
>
>Turning fellow hunters against fellow hunters....
>
>
>Robb


Robb: You have made the most intellegent reply to this thread; mine included!
 
Woodruffhunter,

After re-reading your post I may have read more into what you were saying than what you meant. If so I apologize!

However, based on your statements it appears as though you would prefer for us to put our heads in the sand and not question anything these groups are doing just because they are doing some good.

This was based on your quote
"I am surprised this thread lasted a whole day until there was a complaint about SFW. If you can do something better, do it!"

I don't argue that these groups are doing some good things but I will not simply turn away and let them take money from a public resource without being held accountable for where that money is being spent.

So once again I apologize if that is not what you are saying and I will be much more careful in the future. I am just passionate about this stuff and sometimes get a little over zealous in my responses.
 
OSOK:

I'm actually glad you hold them accountable. I am 100% in agreement with it. I don't usualy
let things get to me, so don't worry too much about my previous whiny comment.

My point is that if we hate the organization, don't support it. We are not forced to donate to them. Join a different org if you think that's better.
 
Good job Hawkeye.

These groups should be no different than a charity organization that opens its books for all to see in order to instill confidence and get more donations for its cause. If these groups would open their books, they might get more support and donations from hunters. That is, so long as everything is on the up and up--which makes me wonder why they won't open the books.
 
It would be great if we could keep it civil. Is coercing and harassing civil and respectful?

Many have claimed to have asked the Attorney General to investigate, many have claimed to ask the Governor to investigate, many have asked the DWR to investigate, many have claimed to ask their Senators and their Legislators to investigate, many have claimed they have asked the IRS to investigate and who know who else has been asked to investigate the SFW and the Expo. As I recall SFW leadership has also said to go ahead and lay out the charges and let whomever you will investigate.

With all this demand for investigation by everyone from the Attorney General on through the rest of State and Federal Government and best they can do is ask for draw odds for the Expo because SFW, under duress, in a hostile meeting, agreed to post more detail and then either reconsidered or came up against reluctance from others that were not at the meeting or whatever. And yet, on they go, attempting to find something, anything, to justify harassing the SFW and now the MDF. With all these investigations and all these accusations and all these demands for answers and the only thing the attorney and the supporters can come up with is: they promised the draw odds.

Folks, think about it, what is going on here? Why haven't these investigations found anything?

Here is what is going to happen, as sure as the sun will rise in the morning.

If or when SFW and MDF publish the expo odds, there will be a new demand for something else, then something else, and something else. It will not end as long as SFW gives in to the harassment. The objective is to break the organization and send the individuals packing. That is the goal and SFW and the rest of may just as well get used to it because it's not going to stop regardless of the degree of transparency and accountability they provide to whom ever and when ever anyone demands it.

Regardless if SFW satisfies the Governor, the Attorney General, the Senate, the Legislature, the IRS or whoever, there will, now and for ever be individuals and groups that will demand more transparency and more accountability and there will, for now and forever, be others what will jump on board and praise the effort and high five the harassment.

These folks are not after transparency nor accountability they are after ammunition.

Who of us would care to have our every movement put under a 24/7 microscope? Who among us could stand up to that kind of scrutiny? They believe, in time, with enough eyes watching, somebody is going to make a mistake and when they do that bullet will get fired.

I got a hundred dollar bill against his ten bucks that say's this gentleman gets his expo odds posted as outlined in this thread and he's back with more demands. This has absolutely nothing to do with transparency and more accountability and has everything to do with who's got more power. It's a effort to crack a rock a chip at a time. Like a supporter just said, "it's a start". Now that was an honest gentleman right there, for sure. Thank you sir.

Why not take the offer HAZ? Prove me wrong, you only risk 10 bucks and you can pick up a hundred. What's 10 dollars, Haz, You get your expo odds and give us two years of happy face and you win. If it's legal, lets do it. We'll have Founder hold the funds. But only if it's legal and you'd be able to research that for us, right? And I know I can trust you because you are above reproach, right?

Well, it's late again, sorry but I felt like I had to respond again PleaseDeer, you are absolutely right, this has gone on for far too long and has become divisive and I'll accept the blame for my share, I get no joy from doing it but I simply can't bring myself to just sit quietly when I see what I believe is harmful to our wildlife and our culture without occasional shooting my mouth.

Let me qualify my remarks: these are my opinions, I have no facts to support my beliefs. The readers can and should do there own research and draw there own conclusions. No reason why anyone should take my word over anyone else's. Everyone has as much right to think for themselves and speak their mind as I have done. Isn't America a fantastic place.

DC
 
I've been following along and unless I missed something, I didn't see anyone eluding to "hating" an organization. I'm not going to pretend there's not some disdain for some of their results and actions, but the entire entity? One would have to be blind not to see the good.

That's one of the problems I see here; if one questions, they somehow hate what they are questioning?

Could it be the result of a more prevalent dogmatic mind frame in Utah? Honest question.
 
2Lumpy,

I totally disagree! And yes America is a wonderful place and we need opposing opinions. If we didn't have them then everyone would be wandering around like sheep.

There may be some that are out to break these organizations, however I am truly only wanting these organizations to be held as accountable for what they are doing as any other wildlife organization is, such as: RMEF, NWTF, etc. and I would be willing to bet most others are in the same boat.

In fact I know that a few of the so called "Anti-SFW" guys on here used to be actual supporters of the organizations.

I personally wouldn't take your bet because I will admit right now that for me it is not about the actual draw odds. For me it is about knowing that the money from the expo is actually being spent on Wildlife here in Utah and that is only because they are using a public resource to gain these funds. Posting draw odds is simply a means to be able to determine the amount of money the expo is generating.

Woodruffhunter said it best when he said "if we hate the organization, don't support it. We are not forced to donate to them. Join a different org if you think that's better."

I definitely vote with my money so I do not currently support these organizations.

If and when we can get to the point where we know that the money from the expo is hitting the ground in Utah then I would take your bet and I would even start supporting them with my money (and the money I won from your bet :))

I was at the meeting you refer to here and I for the life of me can not figure how you think it was an attack. I thought it was a very good conversation and some good ground was made. SFW was given a chance to follow through with some promises and they have yet to do so. Pretty simple as far as I see it.

Thanks for your opinion 2Lumpy. I truly appreciate the opposing views of others.
 
WOW DC, do you need some vagisil cream?

I dont ever recall, but could be wong, seeing anyone on here asking the attoney general and all other govt. agencies to investigate.

BUT, you are not getting the point. Hawkeye is not a "SFW Hater". To me it sounds like he is asking them the be responsible.

Do you know how much $$$$ sfw brought in this last year at the expo? 1 million $, 2 million $?? I dont know either, but I would like to know the exact amount of $ brought in. Lets say they brought in 1 Millions $. SFW is for helping the wildlife, RIGHT? I understand they have to rent the Salt Palace and fees and what not, but of that 1 million $, What %%% went to the ground for wildife? 75%? 50%? 90%? I dont know either, but I would like to know. Should'nt they be "ACCOUNTABLE" with the funds that WE as sportsmen give to them?

I dont think it is bad 1 bit to ask for what they said they were supposed to do from the begining. ODDS AND TRANSPARENCY!
I dont think it is to much to ask them out of the 1 Million $ we gave you, what % is going/dedicated to on the ground projects?
 
LUMP good to see you wintered well...

My Pastor always said what is good will always be "In The Light" and what is bad "Will Always Be Dark"

With the Constant self promotion, slide shows and advertising
EVERY group does why wouldn't they look at this as a chance to
further their agenda???

I'll ask again, Simply, If it's all good what is the problem???






2010 TOTALS
P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS GONE
 
Lumpy-

I know this will likely be a complete waste of time but I am bored this morning so I will try to have a grown up conversation with you. You claim that SFW has been unfairly ?coerced? and harassed? and that ?under duress, in a hostile meeting, agreed to post more detail and then either reconsidered or came up against reluctance from others that were not at the meeting or whatever.? Nothing could be further from the truth. Did you attend the SFW meeting at the U of U last spring? If you did, then you should know better than to make those statements. If you did not attend, then you are talking about something you know nothing about.

Let me set you straight on the issue. Don Peay offered to put on a meeting last year to answer a number of longstanding questions and members of this forum were kind enough provide a location. Don Peay, John Bair, Troy Justensen, Ryan Foutz and others attended on behalf of SFW. There were probably 20 to 25 members of the public in attendance including dryflyelk, llamapacker, OSOK, deerlove and me. The meeting was polite, civil and informative. Unfortunately, SFW did not follow through on some of the commitments that it voluntarily made at the meeting. Nobody threatened SFW or held a gun to SFW?s head. Following the meeting, however, some of us wanted to follow up on those commitments that SFW made to the public.

Now shifting gears to the meeting I had with MDF last month. After I kept hearing Troy Justensen, a paid SFW employee, publicly blame its Expo partner (MDF) for SFW?s failure to follow through on its commitment to release the actual drawing odds for the Expo, I called him on what I thought was a poor and inaccurate excuse. In response, he invited me to go directly to MDF and ask if what he was saying was true. I accepted Troy?s invitation and scheduled a meeting with Miles Moretti and Eric Tyckson of MDF. I also started my post on monstermuleys.com so that this issue could be resolved publicly once and for all. Once again, my meeting with MDF was civil, polite and informative. But guess what, MDF told me directly that Troy?s claim was not true. MDF was not preventing SFW from releasing the drawing odds. Rather, SFW and MDF had met jointly and made a decision not to release the drawing odds even though SFW had committed to do so. MDF was not threatened, coerced or bullied into making these statements. In fact, I received the following email from Eric Tyckson just two days ago: ?Jason- I appreciate the time you took to meet with us. We may not agree on everything but we do agree that mule deer need our help in Utah and throughout the West. I think it benefits all involved to find ways we can partner and work together on future issues. Please feel free to contact us anytime. We are meeting on June 21st to finalize the decision on releasing the odds but I'm sure it will happen soon.? Does that sound like someone who has been bullied or victimized?

In summary, your posts are way off base. Rather than focusing on the core issues, you spend all of your time on pointless hyperbole and demonizing anyone who dares to question these two groups. So help me out here DeLoss. Take a minute and prepare a logical post responding to the following two simple questions: (1) Why shouldn't SFW and MDF be required to release the actual drawing odds/information for the Expo given that the 200 convention permits are a public resource and these groups previously committed to do so? (2) Why shouldn't there be some type of requirement that SFW and MDF spend at least some portion of the monies generated from the 200 convention permits on actual conservation projects (just so we are clear ? they are not currently required to spend even one cent on actual conservation)?

I am anxious to hear your response and I will consider your comments with an open mind if you will focus on the issues. You are obviously passionate about wildlife but I would like to see you focus your attention on the real issues instead of taking a ?black and white,? ?us or them,? ?you're either with us or against us? attitude. Such polarized views are not very helpful to the discussion.


Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Unbelievable.

Lumpy and the rest of you who are bringing bile to the table, I'll go over this again so you can understand it. I'll dumb it down a bit for those that aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer.

As Hawkeye stated, the impetus behind the meetings and public discussion here and in person between ourselves and the conservation groups serves one purpose. As sportsmen, we want more of our money to be used effectively. If a dollar is generated for wildlife, we'd like to see as much of that dollar as possible "hit the ground".

The expo is an area where there is no oversight in this regard. The state hands over a public resource, worth a whole lot of money, to private groups, and says, "good luck". The conservation groups then use the tags to generate buckets of cash.

Again, this cash came from a public resource. Now it sits in private hands with no oversight. There are no requirements on how the money is spent. This public resource all of a sudden became private. OUR resources are now put in the hands of whomever is making the decisions for these groups. If they all want big bonuses and new cars, there is nothing that says they can't go out and buy them.

All we've been asking for, for years and years now, is for these groups to show us what's going on. Where are our dollars being spent? How are we helping wildlife? Is the tag that we took out of the public pool generating funds that will help our wildlife and the future of hunting in Utah?

Don will show you a sweet powerpoint if you ask him, but that's not what we're asking.

Now, that isn't that hard of a request, is it? Honestly, if SFW and the MDW and whomever else wanted to earn trust and good will, they would have done this on their own a long time ago. Instead, it takes people who are concerned about our wildlife to bulldog these folks into doing what's right.

These conservation groups do great things, there is no doubt about that. But, any organization that is given a lot of money with no oversight is destined for trouble and bad decisions. Look at the wall street journal and you'll see examples of this constantly. If these funds were generated privately, then heck, do whatever you want. But they weren't. These are your tags and my tags that have been sold.

The odds are just a part of this equation. SFW promised transparency and told us that we'd see the odds. The odds would allow anybody with fourth grade math skills to figure out how much money is coming in. We'd also be able to evaluate for ourselves if this expo thing was working out, or if it would be better to put these tags back into the pot. That's the key, here. It's also about following through on commitments.

Any and all of these meetings have happened because we're all concerned with Utah's wildlife future. To suggest otherwise is just stupid. We can all get along and we can all make things better.

If you've read all of this, congrats.

/rant
 
For the life of me as I sit here reading this thread, I can't understand how some MM members are equating what is being asked of these two organizations to what they are posting about bashing and hating these organizations and that those who want transparency are hoping these groups go OB. It just doesn't make any sense when groups like these two take in huge amounts of public money like they are and don't have to account for it! It doesn't seem like it would take a rocket scientist to figure out that if there is no accountability that bad things either are already happening or will in the future! In our society it is just too easy for a person that has no accountability to start by spending money on small stuff and then going up the ladder as they see they are getting away with it. As was mentioned in another post, it can snowball into vacations, vehicles, etc., at the expense of the wildlife that the money was intended for!
 
My question is why target one group then, why targes SFW alone, why are you not looking into what RMEf, MDF, NWTF, FNAWS, they all recieve public tags that are auctioned is anyone looking to see if that money is hitting the ground. This all to me seems like a personal agenda that some people that use to be supporters got butt hurt somehow and are trying to destroy SFW to make their butt fill a little better about things. If you are targeting one group then yes it looks like harassment.
 
Despite the hyperbole and wild accusation made by some, the meeting at the U of U and all of my subsequent meetings with both MDF and SFW have been professional and polite. For the record, I am currently a member of both organizations. Most know that my support for SFW in particular has wavered over the years, and I have not been a member as often as I was. The issue of transparency and accountability have been key for me to become more involved. I do belong to several other conservation groups where I actively participate and support the mission.
Much of the angst leading up to the original meeting was due to a senior staff member of SFW drawing a sheep tag at the expo in 2010. Many baseless accusation were made. A request for odds was in part related to understanding this draw process. Another part was directed at accountability for the funds raised.

The public, through posts on MM, and at the meeting at the U, was invited to witness and observe the draw process in 2011. I was the sole member of the public that showed up at the draw, and have previously reported that I saw nothing improper about the draw. It was above board. (On the other hand, I didn't draw a tag, so something must have gone wrong!)

About a week ago after Hawkeye started the thread about meeting with MDF, I posted that it was time for everyone to e-mail SFW and MDF to put this issue behind them. It is a losing battle for both groups. Following my own advice, I e-mailed both of these groups and received the e-mail from Ryan partially posted to start this thread. I have not received a response to my e-mail to MDF.

I appreciate the straight-forward, constructive reponse I recieved from Ryan. It was direct, and he even replied to my follow-up questions with great clarity. He has promised to post what was initially promised at the U of U meeting. It should put all questions of drawing odds to rest once and for all.

Nobody thinks for a minute it will put to rest all requests for more transparancy from these organizations. Posting of tax returns, etc., will also help in this regard. There will always be a few people nit-picking around the edges, wanting more, more, more. This is the price of freedom, and seems to be human nature. Even RMEF, B+C, and a many others face these same demands regularly. With the big issues resolved, however, and a track record of general transparancy, most people move forward, either choose to support a group or not, and get on with their life and their passionate interest in hunting, conservation, etc. I'm not a MDF or SFW "hater", and will be more inclined to offer additional support when the transparancy issues are resolved. I have some deep philosophical disagreements with SFW strategy in certain areas, but appreciate their dedication and focus. Who knows, I may eventually become their cheerleader, but for now I sit on the fence, worrying about their lack of transparency and the potential implications of this secrecy. I may also become their loudest critic after evaluating the information they release.

When the odds are posted before the end of the month as Ryan promised, it will be a good start towards rebuilding my trust in this organization.

Thanks Ryan, and a big THANK YOU to Hawkeye for his dedication and professional approach to this issue.

Bill
 
You bring a good point cantkillathing-

Don't anybody quote me on this- but I thought I remember reading from someone on this site last year that SFW receives more tags than all of the other organizations put together..??? If that is true, I can understand STARTING with SFW and moving on to the others afterwards. Also, if it's true, the other organizations may simply follow suit...

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-10-11 AT 10:31AM (MST)[p]cantkillathing-

A simple question deserves a simple answer. We are talking about Convention Permits--not Conservation Permits. These are two different topics. There are already statutory requirments that 90% of the monies generated from Conservation Permits be used for actual conservation projects and that the conservation groups render an accounting to that effect. There are no statutory requirements that any of the monies generated from Convention Permits be used for actual conservation or that the groups account for those funds.

Plus, there are only two groups that participate in the Hunting and Conservation Expo and take advantage of Convention Permits--SFW and MDF. Which two conservation groups have we met with and made these requests to? SFW and MDF.

There you go. This has nothing to do with anyone's "butt getting hurt."

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-10-11 AT 11:19AM (MST)[p]cantkillathing---I can speak a little to the one organization you mentioned and that is the NWTF. I have belonged to that organization for a long time and am active in the chapter I belong to over in Battle Creek. The NWTF has paid employees running the organization, but the way it is set up they are very accountable for all their actions and monies spent. There is a decent-sized Board of Directors that are elected directly by the entire membership throughout the country. They have direct oversight and control of the national organization, while the local members do the same at the local chapter levels. That national oversight is what led to finding some serious problems in the way certain higher-ups in the organization were going about things and they were "asked" to leave and it's my understanding that when CEO Robb Keck said he was backing at least one of them that he was also "asked" to leave. This led to a new CEO and the hiring of suitable replacements for the others who departed, along with some restructuring of the office with several other employees leaving due to duplication of job responsibilities, etc. All monies made and spent are readily available for scrutiny and there is direct oversight of everything by the elected Board of Directors. The NWTF continues to grow and is a fantastic organization with tremendous monies spent "on the ground" with the result that the wild turkey population is growing throughout the country and there are great WITO and Jakes programs that I'm involved in to get women and kids into the hunting and shooting sports under proper instruction and supervision. Maybe these groups that are receiving such severe criticism might want to look at the way the NWTF operates. It may not be perfect, but everything is done as openly and as transparent as I think can be done in an organization of that size.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-10-11 AT 11:27AM (MST)[p]Travis-

No offense taken and no apology necessary.

As a sidenote, I have found this is one of the primary problems with addressing these issues with the hunting public. Most of us do not understand that we are talking about two totally different types of permits. Most people understand that there are strict statory requirements that apply to Conservation Permits (http://wildlife.utah.gov/rules/R657-41.php) but they are shocked to learn that there are few, if any, requirements that apply to the Convention Permits (http://wildlife.utah.gov/rules/R657-55.php). It is like comparing apples and oranges.

The average sportsman believes that when they attend the Hunting and "Conservation" Expo that some portion of the money they spend applying for permits will go to actual conservation. Perhaps some of it does. However, one thing is true. There is absolutely no requirement that any of those monies be spent on actual conservation. Contrast that with the strict requirement that 90% of the monies generated from Conservation Permits be spent on actual conservation projects and that there be an accounting to that effect.

After researching the differences between these two types of permits, I was extremely troubled there were not checks and balances or transparency/accounting requirments built into the Convention Permit system. Who is to blame for this? The State of Utah, the DWR, the participating conservation groups, or the public? This concern is what led me to start asking questions about the Expo and the money raised from Convention Permits.

I hope that people take time to read the actual code sections referenced above and find this information helpful. One of my goals is to use this forum as a tool to engage in public dialogue and educate people on these issues. I have certainly learned a lot from following and participating in these discussions. For instance, I did not understand the difference between Convention and Conservation Permits until coloradooak raised the issue in a prior thread.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
I thought the idea was to take a limited number of licenses out of the regular drawing process (performed by a company in Fallen, NV) and make them available for the Hunting & Fishing Expo.
The application fees normally collected by the NV company would be collected by those organizations running the Expo event and those fees were to be used to help defer the cost of promoting the Expo, etc.
Does the NV company performing Utah's drawing and collecting all of the application fees provide any conservation purposes for either Utah or NV?
Are they open and transparent in their business with Utah's hunters?
SFW & MDF are both "conservation organizations" responsible for hosting "and attracting" one of Utah's largest and most successful "regional or national wildlife convention".

The following excerpt is from the link Hawkeye provided about the convention permits.

R657-55-1. Purpose and Authority.

(2) Wildlife convention permits are authorized by the Wildlife Board and issued by the division to a qualified conservation organization for purposes of generating revenue to fund wildlife conservation activities and attracting a regional or national wildlife convention to Utah.

It seems to me this is no different than the Fallen, NV company having a contractual obligation to perform Utah's annual drawing, for which they collect & keep application fees.
 
Yes Bob that was the idea, but we and other fellow hunters want to see how much $ is generated and where it is going. Placing the odds and the profits generated will help wildlife. If I know my hard earned $ is helping I'll give. If it's not helping wildlife I wont pretty simple. Lumpy is acting like he's not going to get another free hunt from sfw. Just give us what was promised.
 
"Wildlife convention permits are authorized by the Wildlife Board and issued by the division to a qualified conservation organization FOR PURPOSES OF GENERATING REVENUE TO FUND WILDLIFE CONSERVATION ACTIVITIES and attracting a regional or national wildlife convention to Utah."

If one of the stated purposes for Convention Permits is to "generate revenue to fund wildlife conservation activities" then why isn't there a statutory requirement that some portion of the revenue be used for actual conservation activities? What am I missing?

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
>I thought the idea was to
>take a limited number of
>licenses out of the regular
>drawing process (performed by a
>company in Fallen, NV) and
>make them available for the
>Hunting & Fishing Expo.
>The application fees normally collected by
>the NV company would be
>collected by those organizations running
>the Expo event and those
>fees were to be used
>to help defer the cost
>of promoting the Expo, etc.
>
>Does the NV company performing Utah's
>drawing and collecting all of
>the application fees provide any
>conservation purposes for either Utah
>or NV?
>Are they open and transparent in
>their business with Utah's hunters?
>
>SFW & MDF are both "conservation
>organizations" responsible for hosting "and
>attracting" one of Utah's largest
>and most successful "regional or
>national wildlife convention".
>
>The following excerpt is from the
>link Hawkeye provided about the
>convention permits.
>
>R657-55-1. Purpose and Authority.
>
>(2) Wildlife convention permits are authorized
>by the Wildlife Board and
>issued by the division to
>a qualified conservation organization for
>purposes of generating revenue to
>fund wildlife conservation activities and
>attracting a regional or national
>wildlife convention to Utah.
>
>It seems to me this is
>no different than the Fallen,
>NV company having a contractual
>obligation to perform Utah's annual
>drawing, for which they collect
>& keep application fees.

Also, all of the application moneys DO NOT go to the Fallon, Nevada company that does the draw. Quite a bit of it stays in the state for guidebooks, administration (front desk at the division) etc.


http://unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-13-11 AT 07:49PM (MST)[p]Deerlove

What free hunt has SFW given me?

Were you referring to the Alaskan fishing trip that a group of sportsmen including Don Peay and his wife gave to my son when he returned from Iraq, along with a number of other soldiers and their fathers, that were given various kinds of fishing and hunt trips? The trips that Don his wife and others gave to some of the young men that risked there lives for your freedom, was that my free trip?

Is that the free hunt your referring to?

DC
 
Doesn't both SFW & MDF fund wildlife conservation activities?

I don't know what you are missing Hawkeye but I believe the language (from the link you posted) is pretty clear what the purposes of the Convention tags are and what is required.

I honestly do not know about the fees collected from the NV company but I was under the impression that all of those application fees went to that company, not just a portion of them.

Rob, I too have wondered how much the Expo has generated. Having said that though; I do believe SFW & MDF are fulfilling the intended purposes of the Convention tags. It does appear as though some are asking for one thing but their intent is something entirely different. That does not change the purposes of the Convention tags. Has the Hunting & Fishing Expo generated revenue to fund wildlife conservation activities and attracted a regional or national wildlife convention to Utah? Anyone that has been there would absolutely have to answer with a resounding yes, IMO.
 
Smokestick-

Yes, SFW and MDF do fund some wildlife conservation activities. They also spend significant amounts of money on a host of other things, including salaries, consulting fees, overhead expenses, etc. The State of Utah requires by statute that 90% of the money generated from Conservation Permits be spent on actual conservation projects. None of that 90% can be used for salaries, consulting fees, overhead expenses, etc. Why is isn't there a similar requirement for the money generated from Convention Permits? I have never said that SFW and MDF are not complying with the statute. What I am saying is that the statute lacks any meaningful protections or controls to ensure that those funds are used for actual conservation projects as opposed to other general expenses. I believe that Troy Justensen said it best when he stated that the money generated from Convention Permits is simply placed into SFW's general fund. Therefore, nobody but these two groups can truthfully answer your question as to whether "the Hunting & Fishing Expo generated revenue to fund wildlife conservation activities?" It certainly generates significant revenue but who know what portion of those funds, if any, is spent on actual conservation activities.

Also, it is not accurate to compare the general draw conducted by the State DWR through a private subcontractor with the 200 Convention Permits that are turned over to two private companies for the express purpose of generating money for conservation activities. Once again, we are comparing apples and oranges.

Lumpy, please tell your son thank you for serving our country. We obviously disagree on a number of issues but we both respect and appreciate his service in the military.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Yawn...Did anyone get the....yawn...odds posted ...yawn...yet?I sure hope it happens soon so everyone can get back to important stuff like conservation efforts!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-11 AT 12:16PM (MST)[p]The agreement was that a SIGNIFICANT amount of the money raised off of the application fee of these permits would be put on the ground in Utah for Wildlife. And that the actually odds and accounting of said permits and money would be made known.

There is nothing to yawn about when it comes to an agreement that has not to this point been upheld by the MDf and the SFW. This is an indisputable fact. Those of you that think is is something else are not informed.

I was the one that made the promises for MDf with SFW and FNAWS. All they have to do is deliver what was agreed upon and then move forward. We should not have to beg them or force them to do this. If there is nothing to hide then this should of been done years ago. The longer they wait and the more it drags out and the worse it appears.



Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
Yawn...were we able to hold...yawn...these organizations accountable...yawn...so we can ensure the proper money is actually being spent on...yawn...Conservation? I sure hope it happens soon so we can get back to important stuff like conservation efforts!!
 
OSOK AND NONTYPICAL:

WhaT are you guys doing yourselves to get some stuff done as far as conservation? All these other guys are doing is to ask these groups to come forward and tell us the odds and amount of money generated and SPENT on wildlife. Right now with the convention $, I bet 90 plus% goes to salaries and buying hunts for people, 9% to fees, and 1% to wildlife.

Its not bad to get these guys more accountable. Can't you guys get it through your heads?
 
Robiland,

Re-read my post closely. I think you will notice the sarcasm pointed to NONTYPICAL's post.

I agree with you 100% and am wanting the same thing.

:)
 
Your right. Sorry man. I thought from other post you were on page. So that had confused me. 1 less moron now.

I don't understand what these other guys think.
 
>Hawkeye is like a God to
>us nobody hunters!
>
>Thanks for all your time and
>effort for all of us
>that mean nothing to the
>big Con Org's.
>
>Thanks llamapacker for your follow up
>validation!!
>
>Robb


robb

hawkeye is a god indeed

after attending the expo since it began my belief that the draw odds were so good that i should be a shoe-in for the henrys tag are going to be exposed!! i sure hope that these con orgs don't think i can go to the expo and look at all the people and figure out how bad the odds are!! i will be waiting for my tag in the mail . worst case i get a vernon archery!
 
This post is about Expo draw odds.YAWN!!!!!!!Talk about unimportant!If this was about projects,money,etc.,There would be no yawning from me.I can pretty well guarantee you guys that I put in more time and effort and spend more hard earned money on conservation than most do! Although I do that for MDF,and there are those here who would scoff at helping this group,at this time is there anyone else to support?Give me a better alternative!I'm open minded!Who else??Seriously-I want to know who I should support,because the days of standing on the sidelines doing nothing are over!!Give me a better alternative and I'll support them as well!!Our pastime needs more passionate people like Hawkeye if it is to survive.I admire his perseverance on this issue!I just think there are more important things to worry about nowdays than Expo draw odds!!The number of posts this issue drew was much higher than 99% of posts on MM!Why isn't there more concern with issues like habitat,development,etc.REAL ISSUES!that's all I'm saying.Do you understand now,Robiland?I guess if I don't agree with you guys makes me a moron??People who can't see other's points of view seem to fit that term better.
 
All we are saying is show us what you are doing with all this $ you get from us FOR HABITAT AND CONSERVATION. That's all.

I am not saying don't join them. I know Hawkeye is not saying that either. Its good to join a group. Just make sure when you and others are donating millions of $, you know what is being done with it. I know sfw and mdf are doing things, but with the millions they get from the expo, what is being done with it? There is nothing to say they have to use "x" amount of money for wild life and habitat. Like I said befor, they could be using that $ to pay salaries and buy hunts for people. Its that simple. ACCOUNTABILITY AND TRANSPARENCY!
 
Nontypical-

I am glad to hear that you are actively involved in conservation. So am I. As mentioned before, I am or have been a member of the following conservation groups: SFW, MDF, DU, UBA and Delta Waterfowl. I have also attended numerous banquets and other events over the years and donated more money than I would like my wife to know. It sounds like you have done the same.

All I am saying is that it is possible to be involved and support conservation and still raise legitimate questions to these conservation groups. If these groups are going to remain strong and be around for years to come, then they need to be accountable to their members and outdoorsman generally.

I will likely drop several hundred dollars on the Hunting and Conservation Expo again next year even though I am disappointed that these groups are not being held accountable as to how these funds are being used. Some might say this makes me a hypocrite but I prefer to stay involved and continue to ask questions. Taking extreme and emotional positions on either side of the issue will accomplish nothing.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
I've "enjoyed?" following along with this post.
It sounds like we've about talked it all out of our systems.

I think even Mr Hawkeye will finally admit that it was NEVER about the draw odds.... well.....maybe he will.

I love the passion of the folks on here. Some find it easier to express the frustrations through name-calling but that's their preogative.

We're a pretty passionate bunch and it makes me proud to be a part of it. I agree with non-typ, let's move on....or not, to bigger issues now that this thing is almost behind us.

*****Now...what are we going to do about the deer herds?*****

Zeke
 
"I think even Mr Hawkeye will finally admit that it was NEVER about the draw odds.... well.....maybe he will."

Mr. Zeke-

If you will review my posts on this issue, or if you had attended either of the meetings with the conservation groups, you would know that I have several concerns with these groups, one of which was their failure to release the drawing odds. Is this the only concern or issue I have? No, but it is a real issue, and it looks like it will finally be resolved. Most people would prefer to sit back and complain about everything without every fixing anything. If you view this as some type of admission on my part, oh well, I guess that I am guilty as charged.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
We all have to call things as we see them! Right?
It seems like you dish it out along with calling people on the rug so I figured you could handle it too. (I thing you can)
You speak of "smoke and mirrors". You might be right, maybe there has been stalling etc. Maybe there are real issue which need addressed. But, my opinion is that putting all this high-dollar effort into finding out the draw odds is just another form of smoke and mirrors.
Say it how you mean it: YOU WANT TO SEE THEIR BANK ACCOUNT!
I could get on board if the thread wasn't masked by the term "odds".
Really, no one cares about the odds and if you care then you have too much time on your hands and too little on your mind!
Say what you mean and mean what you say!
Love,
Zeke
 
Oh, one more thing before I get back to work, ar least try to mask your condescension when you talk (down) to "us little people"!
Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-16-11 AT 02:14PM (MST)[p]Zeke-

If it makes you feel better you can refer to this effort as a push for "transparency and accountability," one aspect of which includes the release of the drawing odds.

I have no clue what you are referring to with regard to "smoke and mirrors" and a "high-dollar effort into finding out the draw odds." This is really pretty simple. A group of people had some concerns so they requested a couple of meetings with the leaders of these groups, met with them and then followed up on committments made at those meetings. For some reason, you and Lumpy continue to try to make this into something that it is not. Sorry if I am speaking down to you but I am 6'5" so I guess it comes naturally.:)

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Well Mr Hawkeye...at least you made me laugh at that last sentence!

You DO know what I'm talking about but if you wish to be coy, it's OK.

I'm far from the one who continues to make it into something it's not. Remember, I said, from the beginning, it's not about the odds, yet you continue to talk about the odds like they really matter to you. MR Hawkeye, just say "it's about their money". Simply say you want to see SFW & MDF money and their accountability with such!

One thing I'll say again; IT ISN'T ABOUT THE ODDS AND WAS NEVER ABOUT THE ODDS, Yet you continue to blow that trumpet. As intellegent as you seem, it seems you've overlooked that it's obvious to most of us. You may try to mask it by saying "the odds are part of the inquiry" but the odds matter not! Enough said!

Disclaimer; anyone who's veiw differs from mine is wrong and will be castigated!

Respectfully,
Zeke
 
Zeke-

It was about the odds but it was also about other issues. It has been entertaining to read as you and Lumpy try to explain to me what my motivations really are. It's kind of like going to a psychologist?except it's free advice. Let me explain one more time. Would I like SFW to follow through on its commitment and release the drawing odds? Yes. Does this issue matter to me? Yes. Would I like to see SFW and MDF account for how the funds generated from the Convention Permits are being used? Yes. Would I like to see a statutory requirement that 90% of the funds generated from the Convention Permits be used for actual conservation projects? Yes. Have I raised each of these issues during meetings with the leadership of SFW and MDF? Yes. Am I being coy or deceptive about how I really feel? No.

The release of the drawing odds is one specific issue. I agree that it is not the end all be all but I disagree that it is a complete pretext for something else. You may think the odds do not matter to anyone but you are wrong. Just because you do not care about an issue does not mean that everyone feels the same way. Plus, the fact that SFW committed to releasing that information long ago is reason enough to follow up on the issue.

By the way, you never explained what you meant by the alleged "smoke and mirrors" and a "high-dollar effort into finding out the draw odds." It reminded me of when Lumpy accused us of harassing, bullying and victimizing these groups. lol.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Ok I'll explain.

"smoke and mirrors": This is a term which has been thrown around which is supposed to describe what MDF & SFW has done by not giving out information. You've never heard it?
"High-dollar" effort: It is my term used to describe all the time and talents which have been directed at getting the "odds" from SFW & MDF. (and all the entertaining posts)
I hope that helped you.

"Smoke and mirrors" is the term used, in this case, to describe the "valiant" efforts to obtain the "odds" when we know it has little to do with odds.(oops, there I go again, telling you what you really mean). You may say what you will and be as condescending as you wish but it changes nothing.

As for my free advice, you wish none from me and none was given. I simply stated the obvious to me. As for your advice to me, don't tell me to call something by another name so I feel better. I feel just fine. At least one of us will say what we mean. Please refrain from insinuating that I said anything about bullying, harassing or victimizing anyone. Alas, it was not I.

You have your opinions and I have mine! God bless America!
I have been entertained as well by reading the thread, although some of the points are transparent.

Incredible as it my seem to you, we are actually on the same team. We both want the most for wildlife. I just think it's a matter of paradigm and semantics.

Now back to the question: what about our struggling deer herds?

Best regards,
Zeke
 
Just to make sure Zeke and others can throw more stones, I will say the odds really do matter to me. Yes, I am truly interested in the odds. I have a few more questions as well for both of these groups, but when Don and Ryan said initially they would post the draw odds I took them at their word, and am very interested in the data.

For those who don't know me, I am a very, very avid hunter. I don't restrict my hunting to Utah. I've applied for some 50+ tags already this year in various states. I have purchased "supertag", convention raffle, or equivalent "chances" in many states. I actually do look at the odds for each of these drawings. Without having the luxury of unlimited funds I try to make the most of my application dollars. I may still throw more than a few dollars at very long odds tags such as AZ desert sheep each year, but in some states I find even better odds in some raffle drawings. I make sure I participate in several of these each year as well. Call it my gambling fix since I don't ever go to Wendover.

Conversely I stopped applying for AZ strip deer tags once I undrstood the drawing odds for a less than max points holder are truly zero. It helps to understand the system used for each drawing. I try to understand my drawing odds before applying for any tag. The fact the odds may be long does not automatically eliminate my support of these drawings, but I prefer to be informed. If for no other reason than to understand my true good fortune when I do periodically draw these tags. This is just a long drawn out explanation to help some of the non-believers understand that odds really do matter. And, by the way, they have been promised for some time. I expect to see them posted on their web pages in the next few days.

Bill
 
Llamapacker,
I'm not throwing stones. I'm simply stating my opinion like so many others on here. Including you.
I'm the dude who was trying to help you on you upcoming elk hunt! I passed alone unsolicited information and wanted nothing in return so you're not getting hit by a stone from me! Maybe the info which was passed to you way was of no consequence to you. (I must admit, I did it for selfish reasons. I love your stories and pics! LOL)

I guess that if you, and others, really tell me that all this "to do" was about the odds then I suppose I should accept it at face value. But it can't be THE reason when there are hundreds of posts on multiple threads about these damn odds! Odds-smodds!

Well, I'm out of gas for MM for the day,. Please talk quietly among yourselves until I return.

Zeke

PS. Bill, did you ever call Todd about your elk hunt? Great resource man.
 
Zeke,

I know we are really on the same side of the issue - contributing to wildife and hunting. I do appreciate your earlier contact. Chin up, and keep fighting the good fight.

Bill
 
I have only been to one Expo.The only reason I would be interested in the odds would be if I ever make it to another(which I plan to some time).Even at that,I would still put in for the tags I would want,not the easier to draw ones.I totally agree with you guys that transparency and accountability are very important.In fact,that is why our local SFW chapter broke up a few years ago.We asked for some accountability and got none.But this thread is supposed to be about Expo draw odds.I agree with Zeke-call a spade a spade!It would be interesting to see the draw odds,but I would sure like to see some of the passion on this thread put into good viable habitat improvement projects,or really anything that benefits hunting!Good hunting to you all,and may your children and grandchildren experience the same.I'm out.
 
Excuse my ignorance, but let me run this by the MM forum. Under the existing written rules for the convention tags, are the organizers required (by law) to draw ALL of the tags as the sportsmen believe they are doing. Can they hold a couple of the tags, at their discretion, to be given out how they desire? Hawkeye, do you how the legal jarg reads?
 
Cannonball,

SFW and MDF do not hold back any of the "200" convention tags they are awarded for the drawing. While I can't point to the exact written document for specific language, these drawing tags for the expo cannot be converted to other use, to the best of my knowledge. I do know when I witnessed the draw they did in fact award all of the tags.

Remember, they already recieve a substantial number of "conservation permits" in addition to the "convention permits". They can use the conservation permits for auction or other events around the state, so it seems counter-intuititve to think they would not award any of the Expo drawing tags. They have enough auction tags from other sources.

Bill
 
llamapacker, I understand and I would hope you are right. I would just like to know how the legal wording is shown to SFW and MDF on the convention tags. When stated, "To the best of my knowledge" is like saying "I assume" and that's not in my legal dictionary. They may have an open door to do what they want and everyone "assumes" they will do right.
 
Cannonball,

Look at post number 44 by Hawkeye as he provides a link to the statutes for both conservation and convention permits.
 
That looks like alot of $$$ generated. I hope they do some good with that $$$. I really hope that atleast 75% of that money goes to the ground for wildlife projects such as habitat protection and predator control. Please USE THAT $$$ TO HELP OUR DEER HERD.
 
SFW and MDF-

Thank you for following through and releasing the drawing odd information.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Other than the words "Trophy" and "Application" not being spelled properly right at the top, it looks very well done! There are obviously millions of dollars taken in at $5 a crack and it won't take someone very long to figure out the total incoming monies.
 
Just under a million dollars(976,000) from approx. 200,000 applications for 2011.

alpinebowman

>>>---shots that are true pass right through--->
 

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