Have Tape Measures "Ruined" Hunting????

M

MTQuivers

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Don't get me wrong when I kill a deer or elk or antelope or whatever the first thing that happens is my "official" measurement. I have a tape in my backpack and another one in my glove box. I also support B&C and P&Y and enter animals in P&Y regularly.......BUT I wonder if tape measures are ruining this sport. I remember growing up my family helped guide on a ranch near Coleville Utah and I helped with that until I was 19 years old. In all the years of hunting there with family and friends and all the people we guided on hunts I don't EVER remember people asking about 200" bucks or 400" bulls. People would talk about the mysterious 30" buck but rarely a mention of scores like we hear today. If I got my client a nice mature 4 point or better they were THRILLED!!! Looking back some of these deer would push the 180" mark but many were in the 140-165" class and these guys were STOKED. If we shot a nice 25"+ buck we were EXCITED! Since that time I have hunted pretty much strictly on public land throughout SEVERAL states and I no longer guide. Each year it seems over the last 10-12 years I have heard MORE AND MORE talk of 200" bucks and 400" bulls. I think expectations have gotten SO HIGH THAT EVERYONE WANTS A 200" DEER AND A 400" ELK. Those expectations are VERY UNREALISTIC! 10-15 years ago we had 1 B&C ELK to our name in Utah and it was killed somewhere down by Price. I think ALOT of the reasons why we hear SO MUCH COMPLAINING ABOUT OUR HERDS AND OUR TROPHY OPPORTUNITY IS BECAUSE PEOPLE RELY ON A MEASURING TAPE TO TELL THEM IF THEY HAD A GOOD HUNT OR NOT!!! I personally love a challenge of any kind but in hunting you have to be realistic. In some areas shooting a 200" deer may be a realistic goal BUT NOT IN VERY MANY AREAS. I personally like to take where I am hunting into consideration and CHALLENGE MYSELF! For example: If I am hunting a general unit a 160-180" buck is a challenge. If I shoot a 160-180" it won't go on the cover of Eastmans Bowhunting journal but I am cool with that. It was a trophy for the area I was hunting. If I am hunting an easy draw hunt for antelope in wyoming and I kill a nice 13-14 inch antelope with my bow it is a trophy. In some areas even shooting a 4 point buck may be a challenge. We don't have to settle for any buck but it is OK to take the area into consideration and CHALLENGE OURSELVES! To many people have forgotten the fun of hunting hard and feeling the satisfaction of a job well done because their measuring tape does not add up the the inches that they hoped for. I have seen so many people misjudge the score of a deer and they are SO EXCITED ABOUT IT and then the animal is measured and the EXCITEMENT IS REPLACED by disappointment.
I THINK IF PEOPLE WOULD REMEMBER WHY HUNTING IS FUN, SET YOUR OWN STANDARDS FOR SUCCESS, AND BASE SUCCESS ON THE EXPERIENCE AND THE AREA BEING HUNTED INSTEAD OF A MEASURING TAPE WE WOULD NOT HEAR SO MUCH COMPLAINING AND DOOM AND GLOOM ABOUT OUR WILDLIFE. JMO

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
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Ruined it? No.
Added a carried away aspect to it? Yes.
4abc76ff29b26fc1.jpg
 
I think it is a very small handful of hunters that need 'inches' to consider themselves a hunter.

"""I think expectations have gotten SO HIGH THAT EVERYONE WANTS A 200" DEER AND A 400" ELK""""

Daydreams are fun but not a reality when ya go hunting.

Personally, I would rather have multiple harvest year in and year out than one big 'inches' harvest and nothing harvested for years and years because I was so wrapped up in the score.

Good topic Jason-----thanks for getting it going.

Robb
 
I do think that score has ruined it for a few people. Ya everyone wants one, not everybody is going to get either one. But hey we all love to try!

NO GUTS, NO STORY!!


4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg
 
Score really don't care If I like him I will shot. a Big 3 x 3 is not safe, a Bull with big Whaletails 5 x 5 isn't safe. Period
If it wears hair,fur or feathers it's not safe. LOL

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
>I think it is a very
>small handful of hunters that
>need 'inches' to consider themselves
>a hunter.
>
>"""I think expectations have gotten SO
>HIGH THAT EVERYONE WANTS A
>200" DEER AND A 400"
>ELK""""
>
>Daydreams are fun but not a
>reality when ya go hunting.
>
>
>Personally, I would rather have multiple
>harvest year in and year
>out than one big 'inches'
>harvest and nothing harvested for
>years and years because I
>was so wrapped up in
>the score.
>
>Good topic Jason-----thanks for getting it
>going.
>
>Robb


+1
 
Legitimate question for sure. Most of us who have hunted very long have seen the same progression (digression) from everyone wanting the magical "30" buck to hunting for score. While it is a good way to "talk" about or compare animals it has changed the hunt for many. I would guess for the most part it makes an outfitters life miserable as many hunters show up thinking there is a 200" buck behind every tree. LOL! I think you could add all of the hunting media (TV, magazines, internet) to the list with tapes but again it's just advancement that didn't exist 25 years ago. This site alone (it's a good one) spreads the news amazingly fast and we all see pictures of whatever is killed within a few hours to a few days, even when we don't know any of the people. It used to be confined to within your friends and family. For me personally I have bucks and bulls that are worthy of the scoring system but I wouldn't put one of them through it. I have my own personal hunting goals and I could care less about B&C or P&Y.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-22-10 AT 09:06AM (MST)[p]Sure some are hung up on the tape, but the majority are not! The decline in quality & quanity, to the majority of mule deer hunters that I talk to, does not have anything to do with a tape measure, IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO ABOUT NUMBERS!!!! I choose not to shoot mule deer because there are NO NUMBERS, but I will shoot a whitetail anywhere, anyplace that is legal, damn fine eating to!!!!!

Utah didn't go from 200,000 deer hunters to 97,000 or whatever it is now because there wasn't enough 200" bucks for everybody, they dropped because the mule deer numbers are DECLINING!!!!!!!
 
Good topic.

I won't go so far to say it has "ruined" hunting but it has certainly changed it for the worse IMO. Like you, back not so many years ago we would talk about a guy shooting a "big,heavy 10 point" or a "wide 8 point" and that was good enough.Everyone showed their deer and pics around,we oohed and ahhed over them with congratulations and there were good feelings all around.

Not any more.Example: I took a beautiful 11 point on my farm this year-the biggest one killed or even seen on the hoof there since I bought it 5 years ago. I was(and am) ecstatic. My brother-in-law, who got into hunting about 10 years ago, couldn't wait to put a tape on him.Turns out he scored about 10 points less than he had estimated and his attitude about the deer changed-he was truly more than a little disappointed for me I think.In his mind the deer went from being a great one to something lesser in the span of about 10 minutes-all because of what the tape showed. Made me no nevermind whatsoever but the whole 'scoring' deal is what it seems everyone looks at these days.And,yes,expectations are crazy and totally unrealistic.

The culprit IMO:TV shows where that's all they talk about have fostered a "competition" mentality that is exactly the OPPOSITE of what hunting should be about.
 
I remember even back when I was guiding in my teenage years that a guide did not have to know the score to be a good guide because score was not such a big deal. NOW I WOULD ASSUME ANY GUIDE THAT CAN'T SCORE WELL ON THE HOOF WOULD GET STRUNG UP! I think it has gotten WAY OUT OF HAND! Scoring animals is fun but should not determine the success of the hunt!

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
 
Tape measures have not ruined this sport, what is ruining it is so many people trying to "measure up"! ;-)









http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx290/slamdunk_04/E1x1BWINV1-2.jpg[/IMG]
 
I finally have found a post by Jason which I agree with. But Robb has stated it even better. Very few hunters are really hung up on the numbers. They are a vocal group, however. They also tend to be a well healed group, with money to burn, and political influence.

Utah has sold out to the high dollar hunter wanting to shoot the biggest bulls each year. The fact that a few of the peasants get this same opportunity through the draw once in their lifetime is an acceptable sacrifice for the wealthy. Some of the peasants (tung in cheek) have even blessed this system, hoping for their one chance at a great bull for little cost. Most don't even realize what they have had to give up in terms of opportunity and hunting heritage. It will only change if the masses wake up and realize how completely they have been sold out.

Bill
 
Not ruined....but measuring has done NOTHING positive. Very often the animal "scoring" the highest, is NOT the superior animal. (Now we're getting back to personal taste and to each his own, is a good concept.)

My personal "measurement of success" is when dad (before he passed) was proud and my partner jealous.....don't mind bragging to the mailman either.


Within the shadows, go quietly.
 
Slamdunk, thats a slamdunk:)

I would not put a picture on this site from what i have seen in the past unless it was a monster!!

and i have not been a member that long and i have seen nice racks tore apart on this site.

"pics of finished product, mule deer forum"

My best trophies are some of the smallest deer i have killed!
Its all about the hunt!!!
 
It's one thing for a hunter to harvest based on inches, but it is a whole other thing for the wildlife to be managed to inches, and sadly that is where Utah is today. We manage for inches, not for the well=being of the critters. They even go so far as to call themselves, "The real sportsmen".
 
Tape measures?? Maybe.

Greed in high and low places and tape measure envy?? Definitely!!


UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
 
Take the hunters names out of the books and just post a pic of the animal and it's score and the tape measure will have very little impact on hunting at all...... Terry
 
Llamapacker I am glad we can see eye to eye on "SOMETHING". I just think it is ridiculous when I hear very inexperienced hunters talking about 180", 200", 400" or whatever and acting as though ANY animal that does not meet these criteria is hardly worth mentioning. I hate it when people are disappointed when they measure a GREAT buck and then mope when it does not meet their "Magical" benchmark. Nobody should be able to tell anyone else what a trophy "SHOULD" Score. Heck some of the smartest old bucks are going down hill and don't score that great at all.
I personally don't think tapes "Ruin" hunting (Remember I only asked the question) but I definetly think the "LOVE" of inches is the root of all "evil" in our hunting world. If you can't have a good time hunting for the best possible animal the AREA has to offer then what is the point hunting at all. If a TAPE MEASURE HAS TO TELL YOU IF YOU HAD A GOOD HUNT OR NOT THEN YOU ARE MISSING OUT ON THE EXPERIENCE!!!!!!IF YOU HAVE TO HAVE A 200" buck then you are likely to pay ALOT OF $$$ or be sorely disappointed for MANY YEARS.
WHY NOT JUST HAVE FUN AND CHALLENGE YOURSELF???????

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
http://www.basinarcheryshop.com
5% OFF to all MonsterMuleys.com Members!!!
Discount code = monstermuleys
 
Very well said Jason.

The sad part is many have grown up playing the "inches" game and don't know anything else.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-22-10 AT 06:41PM (MST)[p]I personally think too people think what they see on the internet or in a magazine is reality. If you don't turn on your brain when you read these forums, you'd think 200 inchers grow behind every tree. Fact is, Trophy Muleys are rare. Very very rare. That is the cold hard reality. There are some hunters that consistantly kill monsters year after year, and some are in fact doing it on a tight budget. But if you really knew those hunters, you'd quickly learn their secret. They live eat breathe mule deer 24/7 365 days a year. For the vast majority of hunters out there, this is not the life style they live. Jobs, family, other hobbies, location ect all play a role into why they don't have that kind of lifestyle. But when they see some people consisitantly killing big critters, they think that they can do it too. When they get out for their one trip a year, they soon discover that finding a Monster is next to impossible. Some get lucky. But then again, some people win big in Vegas too. For the vast majority of hunters out there, reality is, a 150-160 class buck is about the best they can hope for.
For me, I hunt for the hunt. I hold out for big ol' bucks not because of inches but because the longer I hold onto my tag, the longer I get to hunt. I just plain love to hunt. The thrill of the chase, trying to outsmart a ol' bruiser on his hometurf, is what I love. 99% of the time, the big boys kick my ass and I eat my tag. Doesn't mean my season was a failure though.
 
Tape measures definitely have not ruined hunting for me. I bring one along in case i do get a animal and that animal happens to be big enough that i'll check to see just how big it is... but no.

Greed, $$$, egos, That's not helping but the guy out there hunting for a trophy buck has earned and is paying his way. IMO, not hurting a thing!

Joey
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-22-10 AT 07:59PM (MST)[p]I've never cared about inches but I'm disappointed in myself when I've harvested an animal that has not matured, regardless of it's measurement. I've passed hundreds of young bucks and bulls because I hoped someday they would grow larger for myself or some other hunter to take. I love the hunting activity and taking an animal is not the most important aspect of the experience for me. The search for a mature animal is what motivates me. Taking a young animal is relatively easy on the public lands we hunt. We know where these animals are almost everyday from July through the beginning of the fall hunts. Just going over to the "buck pasture" and killing one isn't at all what interests me in hunting.

For me hunting is "finding" and finding a youngster is no problem, even with the reduced deer herds. As a result, I've taken very few deer over the last fifteen years but I still love the search for "the one" every year.

i've introduced many family members and friends to deer and elk hunting, their desire to harvest any animal is completely understandable to me and I encourage them to do just that, when you start out you need success to stay interested. Young hunters and new adults just starting out need to take home game or they will not generally stay interested in the culture.

I haven't taken a spike bull in many years because I figure he might make it and grow up someday. When I get hungry for wild meat I apply for an antlerless permit. I have friends who hunt spikes because they see it as an accomplishment to "get one" when others don't. I bite my tongue but I don't believe that kind of motivation is any better than a guy that's hunting purely for inches.

Having said that, I still believe there can be enough game to satisfy all our different interests (not every year but often enough to remain motivated) if we can work together to grow the numbers and protect the culture.

DC
 
Good topic.

I don't know if I can say whether or not tape measures have ruined hunting, because I'm pretty young (27) and haven't really known much different. I can say maybe it's getting more prominent as time goes on, but by and large I've always been in the "inches generation."

I agree with Jason when he says it's a shame when someone knocks down a buck and is elated, only to be dissapointed after the tape hits it. I've fallen victim to it myself...and like I said, it's a shame. Taking an animal is an accomplishment! I killed a good buck last year and found myself dissapointed when I taped him at 153". He was a mature animal, and I liked him. Why was I dissapointed?? Who knows...maybe because he wasn't my biggest? I really don't know, and that's part of the problem!

Jason also said back when he used to guide if a guy killed a 25" 4x4 they were excited...and they should have been and still should be! Sure, there are a few units here and there where bigger can be "expected", but for the most part that 25" buck is a very solid representative of a mule deer.

I do say that without a doubt (IMO, of course :)) that the inches game has led to a decline of opportunity for hunters in Utah. 400" bulls bring big dollars, 5x5's don't. Managing for inches doesn't seem to be the best method for hunters or game, again, IMO.
 
While I don't think the tape has "ruined hunting," I do think it has certainly dampened the spirit of what hunting is all about. It has also created a subset of hunters, where money has become a key element to success.

Obviously, everyone has the option of setting their own criteria in what makes a "trophy," and they have every right to hunt as they see fit to achieve their goals. Unfortunately, too many of them look down on other hunters whose criteria is not up to theirs.

I posted another reply in this thread that gives a somewhat more thorough answer of my feelings on trophies.

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID5/15843.html



TONY MANDILE
48e63dfa482a34a9.jpg

How To Hunt Coues Deer
 
Good topic.

I would say that "rubber" tape measures are the ones that cause the most damage. By that I mean tape measures that magically stretch a buck to a much larger score than he actually acheives. This gives folks a false idea of what a 200" buck really looks like and how few and far between they really are. Then comes the disapointment when the buck of a lifetime that they shoot, which looks just like all those "200 inch" bucks on Monster Muleys, only scores 170" or even less.

I think measuring deer is fine and is a good way to know in general terms how big a buck that someone took might be. I always measure mine. The problem is that you never know if you can really believe the score that is given.....thanks to the infamous rubber tape.

How many times have you heard "My buddies figured he would go about 190.", and before long as the story is retold it turns into an official measurement, when in reality the buck's antlers had never even seen a tape.

Then there are the ones that get the bottom half of the G2 measured into both the G2 and G3 measurement. I had a buddy show me the rack of a buck he killed just this year and ask me to guess the score. I said "mid 150's, awesome buck man, congrats!!" He said, "You are way off, you idiot, he goes 174." We put a tape on him together......155". He had done just that. Who was the idiot now?

....happens a lot, in my opinion.
 

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