Yeah exactly! Everyone tries to blame not drawing a tag on “point creep”. Well I haven’t drawn a controlled deer tag in Idaho since 1999 (except for an unlimited archery tag as 2nd choice). And the unit I apply for every year has averaged about 1 in 5 to 1 in 6 odds over those 21 years. Reasonably should have drawn about 3 times but nothing. That’s pretty bad “point creep”!No. The problem with getting known tags is the amount of people applying for such a limited resource.
Son drew it with one point
I’ve got a system I wish all states would go to, but it wouldn’t create the revenue the states would like. It’s this simple, you can only apply for hunts. No buying points. If you don’t draw you get a preference point. If you do draw you lose your points no matter what, other than medical or other such circumstances. Simply put, you don’t put in unless you are willing to hunt that year.I'm surprised there are still many hunters out there that think points are good for them. I would ask all of you to open your minds and consider if a point system is really benefiting or hurting you. Point systems definitely benefit $$$ state game deptarments and many states have found ways to cash in on the point game. Fortunately many hunters in Idaho and NM have realized they don't want a point system and have been opposing point systems in each state for years.
The only way a point system can work well for hunters is when a tag takes less than 5 years to draw. The Kaibab was in this category for a while so a point system was keeping hunters satisfied that they could get a tag every few years. The only benefit I find in a point system is being able to predict and plan for when you will draw a particular tag.
More and more hunters are starting to realize point systems benefit the state game departments more than they benefit hunters. Point systems are like Socialism. They both sound like good ideas to keep things fair but you need to look at the long term consequences of each to realize they are bad ideas. In the next 10 to 20 years we are going to see a majority of the premium deer, elk, pronghorn, sheep, moose and goat tags being drawn by older and older hunters. Point systems are really unfair to those just getting started in hunting. Point systems encourage significantly more applicants every year than not having point systems. Guys that may not be interested in a tag that year still apply in point system states to get their points but in non point system states (Idaho and NM) they will not even apply. It is good for states departments to have more applicants $$$ but bad for those trying to draw tags. It is really simple math, more applicants results in worse draw odds.
With all that said, I still play the point game in Arizona, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Wyoming and Montana every year. If you want to increase your hunting opportunities there is no choice but to play the point game. I would still gladly give up all my points to go to a random draw in every or any state because I know in the long run, random draw will result in more tags for me than point draw.
I’ve got a system I wish all states would go to, but it wouldn’t create the revenue the states would like. It’s this simple, you can only apply for hunts. No buying points. If you don’t draw you get a preference point. If you do draw you lose your points no matter what, other than medical or other such circumstances. Simply put, you don’t put in unless you are willing to hunt that year.
They have cut the archery tags several times. In fact, it wasn't that long ago that the tag was OTC. From what I understand, there was quite a push to reduce tags because it was a bit crowded. They also have a rule that only 20% of the bucks harvested in this heard can be by archery. While I agree that it is far less crowded now, they also added a ton of doe tags for a while. The doe tags have since been cut back (some) but the end result is....less crowded, FAR fewer deer, still BIG bucks-but less of them and much longer (almost every year) to draw a tag. If you hunted there back in the 80's and 90's, you'll know what I mean.Didn't they cut the tags in the kaibab a couple years ago, that will always make draw odds get bad with or without a point system
Point systems suck. Nevada does it best. You always have a chance.
The switch a few years ago to 50% preference and 50% random for nonresident tags is just going to cause even more point creep than would have already taken place. I would gladly give up my points in all western states to go to a random draw like NM or Idaho.
Haha not if you are entering from the ground floor. Look for this system to be the next to "change". Just a word that means screw current point holders.
Also, the bnefit of a points sytem is that you can somewhat plan for when you will draw a tag and plan your fall accordingly.
You are onto something with the 50% preference and 50% random draw for nonresidents. It's hurting those with low points in the random draw. We picked up on this and keep our non-resident applicants separate from our resident groups.
In my opinion, those random draw states suck though because you may never draw the tag. My Dad applied for a goat tag in Montana for thirty years and never drew. That was prior to them going to a point system. It was a shame.
All depends on what tags your are talking about. I doubt you can say you will mathematically draw more than one UT Pauns deer tag, or AZ unit 8, 9, 10, 27 elk tag, or CO unit 53 deer tag, etc. in 30-40 years. At least with a point system you will likely draw once.
I would like to see the random tag percentages increased to 50-50 or at least 75-25.
Fact is...it has gotten to the point at which (in some units) the max point pool only goes down because some applicants give up or die.
Boy the archery tag this year had some significant point creep. Surprised a NR isn’t a slam dunk with 7 points.
Curious to see how Folks truly feel about "point guard?"
I LOVE IT!!!
I accidently put in for the wrong unit as my first choice back in 2017. I accidently clicked on 17B instead of 13B. Obviously drew tag #1 with my 15 points!!!! Luckily I paid the point guard fee and was able to return that tag and not lose my points.
I have since learned not to rush and re-read my applications before hitting "submit"
I actually do think I have a better chance at the premium tags without a point system. I feel like I'm more likely to draw a New Mexico Gila elk tag in the next 10 years in random draw than pick up a quality elk tag in AZ. Unless I get lucky in the random 50% in AZ I'll just have 15 points elk point in AZ in 10 years. Unless the fees change significantly I will also spend twice as much $$ in application and license fees in AZ than NM in the next 10 years.
Funny you mention NM Gila tags. I have actually been lucky enough to draw the Gila three times in the last 17 years (16B rifle first season twice and a 16D rifle first season tag). And I probably only actually applied 10-12 times in those 17 years due to other hunts that would have conflicted with a late Sept/early Oct hunt. However, on the other hand, I have applied every year for 20 years for a 2B January archery deer tag and never drawn.
My point is that there is no "guarantee" of ever drawing in the random process. At least with a point system there is a somewhat "known factor" of how long and what it might take to eventually draw a tag.
As others have said - understand each states system, have a good understanding of the supply/demand (points required) and make a long and short term plan utilizing several states/systems. you can't expect to draw all the premium tags for all species in all states but hold out for some premium tags and burn points every few years on easier tags. Or in random draw states apply for some tougher tags and some easier tags. Its all about understanding and using what we have available to us.
So...it worked for you, but what do you think about the people that pay someone to go in with their party and then use point guard for just themselves while the the rest of the party gets to keep their tags?
Good one. Lol. I'd purchase creep guard.Along with point guard, too bad they didn't also offer point creep guard.
This made me laugh!!Along with point guard, too bad they didn't also offer point creep guard.
I'm a NR applicant with seven points going in...and had all but given up hope. To my surprise, the pending charge hit my credit card this morning...July 1st. Strange turn of events....but I'll take it!
It would work if they had a consequence for cheating the system. I know some real dirt bags that put in every non- hunter they know to transfer the tag their “minor” child. I’m for children having opportunities, just have a set youth quota on each hunt.Curious to see how Folks truly feel about "point guard?" I do like it except for two things...and that is the fact that people get all of there points back PLUS an additional point as if they were unsuccessful in draw. If nothing else... I also think it would be more equitable if entire parties were tied to one person with a ton of points using the point guard. If any person in the party uses point guard, and that lowers the point average for that party, ...then the entire party should forfeit their tags. I believe it is these two parts in particular that are causing much of what we call "point creep." It's no secret that some Folks are using the system and selling their points for big bucks.
Sure can! It’s on AZGFDs radar, hopefully they will fix it!Thank you all for teaching me the loopholes! Guess i could put my wife in for points, and, when she draws, give the tag to my grandson. Or really build her points, put in with her, and then she uses point guard to not get a tag, and keep building points. Then I go to the Kaibab nearly every year. Legal ways to cheat? Should have figured this all out years ago!
Doesn’t work that way. She can only use it once per species. Then if she draws the following year, the tag must be used and all her points will be surrendered. She can then start again with Point Guard, but all her points will be gone, sans loyalty/hunter ed(if applicable).Thank you all for teaching me the loopholes! Guess i could put my wife in for points, and, when she draws, give the tag to my grandson. Or really build her points, put in with her, and then she uses point guard to not get a tag, and keep building points. Then I go to the Kaibab nearly every year. Legal ways to cheat? Should have figured this all out years ago!
But theoretically you could use a non hunting partners points to gain additional tags and that’s the point.Doesn’t work that way. She can only use it once per species. Then if she draws the following year, the tag must be used and all her points will be surrendered. She can then start again with Point Guard, but all her points will be gone, sans loyalty/hunter ed(if applicable).
My response was in regards to Point Guard. The “loophole“ you’re speaking of has been going on for years!But theoretically you could use a non hunting partners points to gain additional tags and that’s the point.
Hasn't been decades though. Didn't point guard only start like 4 years ago? I agree though, they knew people would play the system and they aren't going to do anything about it. As long as they dont im gonna take advantage of it if i get a chance. Id be more for a mandatory 3 year wait after drawing a premium tag before eligibility to draw it again persoanlly. Weeve all seen guys draw primo tags twice in a row while max point suckers are blown to the wind.My response was in regards to Point Guard. The “loophole“ you’re speaking of has been going on for years!
If AZGFD really wanted this fixed, it would have been addressed many moons ago. Because is still goes on today, decades later, leads me to believe they really don‘t GAF how the tag is used as long as it was attained legally and their ledger shows revenue in.
Yes, PG just started. I was just pointing out prior to PG how the system has been played. They weren’t too concerned about then and don’t seem too concerned about it now. It’s been going on loooooong before PG was even on the radar. Again, as long as the ledger shows revenue, it’ll never be addressed. i could care less what people do, really. I was just putting the info out there.Hasn't been decades though. Didn't point guard only start like 4 years ago? I agree though, they knew people would play the system and they aren't going to do anything about it. As long as they dont im gonna take advantage of it if i get a chance. Id be more for a mandatory 3 year wait after drawing a premium tag before eligibility to draw it again persoanlly. Weeve all seen guys draw primo tags twice in a row while max point suckers are blown to the wind.
Year | 12 | 11 | 10 | 9 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 |
2015 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 5 | 8 | 59 | 161 | 491 | 505 | 211 | |||
2016 | 1 | 2 | 13 | 22 | 81 | 245 | 470 | 494 | 218 | ||||
2017 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 6 | 9 | 30 | 25 | 46 | 41 | 71 | ||
2018 | 1 | 4 | 4 | 23 | 31 | 34 | 57 | 86 | 107 | ||||
2019 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 7 | 7 | 17 | 35 | 51 | 39 | 75 | 108 | 124 |
Hey GOUtes. Where did you get that chart? I am going to have 8 points as a resident for next year, what are the chances for early rifle in 12AW? Thanx!"Boy the archery tag this year had some significant point creep. Surprised a NR isn’t a slam dunk with 7 points."
No surprise, Look at last years numbers
Applications vs Points
Year 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 2015 2 1 2 5 8 59 161 491 505 211 2016 1 2 13 22 81 245 470 494 218 2017 1 2 1 2 6 9 30 25 46 41 71 2018 1 4 4 23 31 34 57 86 107 2019 2 1 3 7 7 17 35 51 39 75 108 124
8 points would put you in the bonus pass at 46.9%Hey GOUtes. Where did you get that chart? I am going to have 8 points as a resident for next year, what are the chances for early rifle in 12AW? Thanx!
Applications vs points (1st Season rifle)Hey GOUtes. Where did you get that chart? I am going to have 8 points as a resident for next year, what are the chances for early rifle in 12AW? Thanx!
Year | 14 | 13 | 12 | 11 | 10 | 9 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 |
2019 | 3 | 3 | 9 | 36 | 49 | 112 | 160 | 296 | 473 | 849 | 1282 | 1109 | 519 |
Year | TOTAL TAGS | BONUS TAGS | 14 | 13 | 12 | 11 | 10 | 9 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 |
2018 | 500 | 100 | 100.0% | 100.0% | 100.0% | 100.0% | 100.0% | 100.0% | 40.2% | 20.3% | 18.5% | 15.2% | 12.1% | 9.3% | 6.4% | 3.3% | |
2019 | 450 | 90 | 100.0% | 100.0% | 100.0% | 100.0% | 46.9% | 17.1% | 15.7% | 13.3% | 10.8% | 9.6% | 7.2% | 4.7% | 2.3% |
You hit the nail on the head "Revenue" is the key word here and nothing will ever be done that might reduce that. My real issue is the fact that it is clearly not an equal opportunity system as long as they allow points to be sold. There is a robust behind the scenes market for points and, if you have the funds, you can simply pay someone with a ton of points to go in with your party. After that, they use the point guard and you get to hunt. How many of you would pay an extra $100 - $500 - $1000 to someone that would bring your point average up? I would say that most of us would pay some amount...but at what point does it get cost prohibitive? After that, it simply becomes a rich persons option only. As for as point guard itself being used as it was intended...I'm all for it. It's the selling of points that i believe is inequitable. I also believe this contributes to the point creep that the OP referred to in the first post of this thread. Even if there are no selling of points, I believe that the entire party should have to forfeit their tags if a party member, that uses point guard, reduces the average points for that party. It's simply an unfair option/loophole that is not available to everyone.My response was in regards to Point Guard. The “loophole“ you’re speaking of has been going on for years!
If AZGFD really wanted this fixed, it would have been addressed many moons ago. Because is still goes on today, decades later, leads me to believe they really don‘t GAF how the tag is used as long as it was attained legally and their ledger shows revenue in.
My group went into the draw with an 8 point average and we didn't draw in the bonus pass for 12AW early as residents this year.
You hit the nail on the head "Revenue" is the key word here and nothing will ever be done that might reduce that. My real issue is the fact that it is clearly not an equal opportunity system as long as they allow points to be sold. There is a robust behind the scenes market for points and, if you have the funds, you can simply pay someone with a ton of points to go in with your party. After that, they use the point guard and you get to hunt. How many of you would pay an extra $100 - $500 - $1000 to someone that would bring your point average up? I would say that most of us would pay some amount...but at what point does it get cost prohibitive? After that, it simply becomes a rich persons option only. As for as point guard itself being used as it was intended...I'm all for it. It's the selling of points that i believe is inequitable. I also believe this contributes to the point creep that the OP referred to in the first post of this thread. Even if there are no selling of points, I believe that the entire party should have to forfeit their tags if a party member, that uses point guard, reduces the average points for that party. It's simply an unfair option/loophole that is not available to everyone.
Yes early rifle, we did draw the tags however in the 2nd pass and it was our 2nd choice. In the last 9 years we've had 3 Kaibab tags all were drawn as a 2nd choice. The first tag was a 12AW late hunt with 6pts, then we drew a 12AW early hunt with 2pts and now 12AW early with 8pts.You're talking about early rifle (not archery) correct?
I have never killed anything good with my bab tags, both rifle hunts I had I hunted the whole hunt and on the last day shot dink bucks. The archery tags I've had on the bab I also shot dink bucks. I'm hopeful this year I can put my tag on a good buck.With those 'bab tags, got any pictures you would share??
Absolutely, a buddy of mine took me to the Kaibab the last year it was over the counter archery and we had a blast, plus I was able to harvest my first deer with a bow. I was born and raised in the desert of AZ and hunting the Kaibab is just incredible with the number of deer you see. I seen more bucks in 1 day on the bab then I had probably seen in 10 years in the desert. The next year it went to a draw and there were left over tags and the same buddy and I were able to get a leftover and again had a blast. Starting in 2007 my brother-in-law and I started putting in for rifle and it took us until 2011 to draw that first tag and now in 2020 this will be our 3rd tag and could possibly be our last. As much as we love the place unless you get lucky in the draw 6-8 years in between tags is just to long and since the left over whitetail tags are now near extinct I think we will probably be putting the Kaibab as a first choice and our favorite whitetail as a second choice.You got to hunt the Kaibab, you got to fill your tag, regardless of others' opinions, sounds like a win to me!
Absolutely, a buddy of mine took me to the Kaibab the last year it was over the counter archery and we had a blast, plus I was able to harvest my first deer with a bow. I was born and raised in the desert of AZ and hunting the Kaibab is just incredible with the number of deer you see. I seen more bucks in 1 day on the bab then I had probably seen in 10 years in the desert. The next year it went to a draw and there were left over tags and the same buddy and I were able to get a leftover and again had a blast. Starting in 2007 my brother-in-law and I started putting in for rifle and it took us until 2011 to draw that first tag and now in 2020 this will be our 3rd tag and could possibly be our last. As much as we love the place unless you get lucky in the draw 6-8 years in between tags is just to long and since the left over whitetail tags are now near extinct I think we will probably be putting the Kaibab as a first choice and our favorite whitetail as a second choice.
There was a time 10 or 12 years ago that the kaibab deer units north of the Colorado river were over the counter tags. G&F said the archers were killing too many deer so that is the main reason it went to a draw. The draw allows them to somewhat control the number of deer killed by archers since they have a formula based on percentage of success the archers have. The higher the success rate = fewer tags issued. Like everything these days there was also some politics involved with going to draw for archers. Rifle hunters did not think it was fair archers could just go to walmart and buy a tag then go hunt one of the best mule deer locations in the country. Pretty sure BLM wasn't around back then or I'm sure they would have been claiming they were being discriminated against and would want some reparations. Antifa is a bunch of puzzies and they would never go in the woods because there is no wi-fi.Over the counter? Unless you are referring to 7,8,9 & 10s I’m confused?
I think it's now closer to 6 points?I could be wrong but I believe 2007 was the last year of the over the counter archery tags for the 12's and 13A, hard to believe 13A was over the counter and now people are waiting a decade or more to draw that tag. If my timeline is correct 2008 was the first year 12A went to a draw, there were a 1000 tags if I remember right and they had leftovers the first year. Since then they have slowly cut tag numbers and now it is taking about 4 resident BP's to get in the bonus pass.
So the more I stare at this, the more I AM surprised at the amount of point creep. Maybe I'm looking at this wrong but last year most everybody with 6 points drew....so that bunch should have been cleared out. If you figure some with 5, a few less with 4 and so on, drew as well....it sure looks to me like 7 points should have been a slam dunk this year? With 450 tags, even looking at the move up points holders, it sure looks like there must have been some high point holders jump in for 7 points NOT to be a guaranteed tag? Even looking at the 50% bonus pass etc....Am I looking at that right???? Did anyone on here with 6 points NOT draw?"Boy the archery tag this year had some significant point creep. Surprised a NR isn’t a slam dunk with 7 points."
No surprise, Look at last years numbers
Applications vs Points
Year 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 2015 2 1 2 5 8 59 161 491 505 211 2016 1 2 13 22 81 245 470 494 218 2017 1 2 1 2 6 9 30 25 46 41 71 2018 1 4 4 23 31 34 57 86 107 2019 2 1 3 7 7 17 35 51 39 75 108 124
Actually the chart above is for Non-Residents. I double checked it.Lots of people just sit on the sidelines and buy points until they are ready to actually get drawn so they are not factored into these numbers. Also, the chart above is only for residents and does not include the NR's. I will admit, it has jumped a lot last year and again this year.
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