NE RAC

[elkassassin]

Well!

You Guys PISSED JakeH Off Bright & Early This Morning!

It's A FUBAR!

F'ED!

UP!

BEYOND!

A!

REPAIR!

When You Realize This, Maybe Somebody Will Get Serious Enough To Make Some Changes That'll Improve The Deer Herd!

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Maybe I'm missing something here.
I looked at 1992 Deer population it was roughly 340,000 deer in the state.
That same year there was 228,747 tags issued or hunter afield. there was a whopping 56,533 bucks harvested in 1992. years prior harvest was higher .WOW

Now.
Apr 4, 2023 — Utah wildlife officials say there are an estimated 335,000 deer.

We issued in 2023 65,000 or so deer tags with a population of 335,000 deer in this state.
probably don't know the harvest yet but if i had to guess its around 24,000 buck or so. Was people being more honest back then about there harvest versus now?

SLAM what is the different between now and back then? I'm confused on why such a big tag cut. because back then we issued more tags than half of the deer we had.
Also there is only roughly around 118,000 people applying for GS deer permits.

 

[hossblur]

Maybe I'm missing something here. I looked at 1992 Deer population it was roughly 340,000 deer in the state. That same year there was 228,747 tags issued or hunter afield. Then there was a whopping 56,533 bucks harvested in 1992. years prior harvest was higher .WOW

Now.
Apr 4, 2023 — Utah wildlife officials say there are an estimated 335,000 deer.

We issued 65,000 or so deer tags with a population of 335,000 deer in this state. probably don't know the harvest yet but if i had to guess its around 24,000 buck or so. Was people being more honest back then about there harvest versus now.

SLAM what was the different between now and back then? I'm confused on why such a big tag cut. because back then we issued more tags than half of the deer we had.

Those numbers speak for themselves. 30years of cutting tags to end up where we were.

So, after 30 years the DWR decides to get creative, cuz 30 years of failure didn't work, and we spend 2 damn years arguing over a scope.

I can't wait till winter count numbers come out and the same dudes using DWR "data" to defend their scope start squealing about how bad DWR data is

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Those numbers speak for themselves. 30years of cutting tags to end up where we were.

So, after 30 years the DWR decides to get creative, cuz 30 years of failure didn't work, and we spend 2 damn years arguing over a scope.

I can't wait till winter count numbers come out and the same dudes using DWR "data" to defend their scope start squealing about how bad DWR data is

I understand Hoss what your saying but man alive we have roughly the same amount of deer now as we did back then.

We issued a crap ton of tags back then and we also ran with 200,000 plus tags from 1976 till 1992 and we never had this kind of cut. hell there was a couple of those years we harvested over 80,000 bucks.

Scopes need to come off regardless. But this doesn't make any sense to me at all why such a big tag cut.

 

[elkassassin]

One Thing That Mighta Changed Things Was The Winter Of 92-93?

I've Never Seen That Many Coyote Kills!

The Snow Was Deep!

Crusted!

The Damage Was Beyond Belief!

 

[elkassassin]

A Few years Ago They Put A Bounty On Coyotes!

How Long Did That Take?

 

[Elkslayer2015]

One Thing That Mighta Changed Things Was The Winter Of 92-93?

I've Never Seen That Many Coyote Kills!

The Snow Was Deep!

Crusted!

The Damage Was Beyond Belief!

I understand that Elk, this was before 1992-1993 winter kill. But the herd numbers from what the DWR have back then versus now is not that much different with a 160,000 less tags. just doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[elkassassin]

Ya!

I'm Just Saying We Lost Alot Of Deer & I'm Perty Sure It Was Post 1992 Deer Counts! (I'm Guessing?)

Me & My Son Do Our Own Deer Counts!

South Slope Deer Herd Is PITIFUL!

Their Counts are SKEWED!

Or Should I Say SKREWED?

I understand that Elk, this was before 1992-1993 winter kill. But the herd numbers from what the DWR have back then versus now is not that much different with a 160,000 less tags. just doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[falcon63]

Man, we got A LOT more to go over just scopes of you want it to go “all the way back.” And I’m just talking hunting in Utah in my lifetime, not even back to civil war times.

Patch and ball, smooth bore here we come!

Right? Then it will be back to "what this hunt was intended to be" according to some. Let also make it a law that we wear buckskins and coonskin caps.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Ya!

I'm Just Saying We Lost Alot Of Deer & I'm Perty Sure It Was Post 1992 Deer Counts! (I'm Guessing?)

Me & My Son Do Our Own Deer Counts!

South Slope Deer Herd Is PITIFUL!

Their Counts are SKEWED!

Or Should I Say SKREWED?

We Had 340,000 deer on the landscape Back in 1992. We have 335,000 on the land scape now 2023.

They offered 228,747 tags then. before the winter even hit.

2023 with 335,000 deer they only issued 65,000 tags.

Do you understand what I am saying there elk?

 

[Elkrunning-Scared]

We Had 340,000 deer on the land scape Back in 1992. We have 335,000 on the land scape now 2023.
They offered 160,000 more tags then. before the winter even hit.
2023 with 335,000 deer they only issued 65,000 tags.

Do you understand what I am saying there elk?

I told myself I wasn’t going to get back on here.
But I will answer! The buck to doe ratio is just too low. Thats my guess

Other than that I see your point it doesn’t make any sense. Maybe slam can share some light on it.

 

[falcon63]

This whole restriction and the logic behind the removal of ML scopes seems to be a bunch of BS the more I think about it. Deer hunting is supposed to be a management tool for the good of the herd, the public, the range, basically the entire resource. If we are not over-harvesting with muzzleloaders with scopes, then why mess with it? Spare me the " to make the hunt what it's supposed to be" crap. If someone wants that experience, they can surely have it without worrying about what I hunt with. I'll pass on the ethics lesson as well. Ethics is something that cannot be regulated. It comes from within.
So, why is this discussion even going on? Hunter success? Hunter Satisfaction? Pressure on the DWR to do something, anything? Could it be money? Pressure to raise more money by selling more permits with less chance for success? Maybe a little bit of all of these, plus things I haven't mentioned.
IMO the deer counts as well as the success rates that are published are mostly BS. DWR says we have 335,000 deer or so. Does anyone believe that? What density per acre is that? I think this whole suggestion is a smoke screen to make it look like the DWR is doing something useful when it really isn't. BTW this doesn't imply that the TC wasn't diligent in their work. I just think it's a smoke screen. For the record, I want scopes on my ML. Not the end of the world if they take them, but I still want them. But more than anything I want a DNR that manages resources! Maybe listen to the biologist rather than special interest groups on the wildlife board. Let's start with that and then decide how we can manage the resource for the better and then decide how, when, and how often we can hunt.

 

[elkantlers]

We Had 340,000 deer on the landscape Back in 1992. We have 335,000 on the land scape now 2023.

They offered 228,747 tags then. before the winter even hit.

2023 with 335,000 deer they only issued 65,000 tags.

Do you understand what I am saying there elk?

Let me clue you in on a few things.
..
..
There is no Santa
..
..
There is no tooth fairy
..
..
There is not 335k deer in utah.

 

[2lumpy]

What if biologists have different opinions from one another? Than what?

Which one should be listened to and which one’s management ideologies do we decide to accept? How do we figure that out?

And what if the biologist I believe is not the biologist you believe?

Oh, it all seems so simple……..

 

[elkassassin]

I Do Know What You're Saying!

But What I'm Saying Is There Probably Should Have Been Some Cuts After The Winter Of 92-93!

I Don't Have Them Numbers?

How Many Hunters/Sportsmen Do You Know That Believe Their Counts/Count Numbers?

I'm Callin BS There Being only 5,000 Less Deer In Utah in 2023 Than There Was Pre-1993!

Maybe Hossy Can Tell Me How Wrong I Am?

We Had 340,000 deer on the landscape Back in 1992. We have 335,000 on the land scape now 2023.

They offered 228,747 tags then. before the winter even hit.

2023 with 335,000 deer they only issued 65,000 tags.

Do you understand what I am saying there elk?

 

[elkantlers]

What if biologists have different opinions from one another? Than what?

Which one should be listened to and which one’s management ideologies do we decide to accept? How do we figure that out?

And what if the biologist I believe is not the biologist you believe?

Oh, it all seems so simple……..

Don't believe any of them.

I know there are some really good ones out there and they are trying there best.

But, there is one in my area that doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground.
He's done more harm than good for our elk.

 

[2lumpy]

Don't believe any of them.

I know there are some really good ones out there and they are trying there best.

But, there is one in my area that doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground.
He's done ore harm than good for our elk.

I rest my case.

 

[elkantlers]

This whole restriction and the logic behind the removal of ML scopes seems to be a bunch of BS the more I think about it. Deer hunting is supposed to be a management tool for the good of the herd, the public, the range, basically the entire resource. If we are not over-harvesting with muzzleloaders with scopes, then why mess with it? Spare me the " to make the hunt what it's supposed to be" crap. If someone wants that experience, they can surely have it without worrying about what I hunt with. I'll pass on the ethics lesson as well. Ethics it something that cannot be regulated. It comes from within.
So, why is this discussion even going on? Hunter success? Hunter Satisfaction? Pressure on the DWR to do something, anything? Could it be money? Pressure to raise more money by selling more permits with less chance for success? Maybe a little bit of all of these plus things I haven't mentioned.
IMO the deer counts as well as the success rates that are published are mostly BS. DWR says we have 335,000 deer or so. Does anyone believe that? What density per acre is that? I think this whole suggestion is a smoke screen to make it look like the DWR is doing something useful when it really isn't. BTW this doesn't imply that the TC wasn't diligent in their work. I just think it's a smoke screen. For the record, I want scopes on my ML. Not the end of the world if they take them, but I still want them. But more than anything I want a DNR that manages resources! Maybe listen to the biologist rather than special interest groups on the wildlife board. Let's start with that and then decide how we can manage the resource for the better and then decide how, when, and how often we can hunt.

 

[elkassassin]

Those numbers speak for themselves. 30years of cutting tags to end up where we were.

So, after 30 years the DWR decides to get creative, cuz 30 years of failure didn't work, and we spend 2 damn years arguing over a scope.

I can't wait till winter count numbers come out and the same dudes using DWR "data" to defend their scope start squealing about how bad DWR data is So? You're Gonna Let That Data Sink In To Your THICK Scull As Gospel?

 

[falcon63]

What if biologists have different opinions from one another? Than what?

Which one should be listened to and which one’s management ideologies do we decide to accept? How do we figure that out?

And what if the biologist I believe is not the biologist you believe?

Oh, it all seems so simple……..

I'll believe nearly any biologist more than I'll believe SFW, Outfitters or us. Have them make a recommendation based by.......science that can be verbalized to all. They also need to define what they are trying to do and then justify the science to achieve it. It may not be what we are all wishing for.

 

[Ballistic]

What if biologists have different opinions from one another? Than what?

Which one should be listened to and which one’s management ideologies do we decide to accept? How do we figure that out?

And what if the biologist I believe is not the biologist you believe?

Oh, it all seems so simple……..

Lumpy
Good point !
A question I asked the DWR when the 3 year unlimited bull elk plan was put into place ?
What about annual numbers from biologists ???
What good is a biologist and exit numbers if no one’s listening ?

 

[2lumpy]

I'll believe nearly any biologist more than I'll believe SFW, Outfitters or us. Have them make a recommendation based by.......science that can be verbalized to all. They also need to define what they are trying to do and then justify the science to achieve it. It may not be what we are all wishing for.

I have a sneaky suspicion you aren’t aware not every wildlife biologist is currently employees by the Fish/Game/Wildlife agencies.

Apparently you are unaware landowners hire biologists, Federal bureaucracies hire biologists, all other States hire biologists. One State to another, those biologists disagree as much or more as non-biologists do. Imagine that, two biologists disagreeing.

Conservation groups generally don’t hire biologists……. they fund their projects. Memberships are from all walks of life, they likely have no idea how many biologists belong to their org.

Hundreds of biologists are retired and they still express their opinion, only more freely without pressure from their bosses.

But…… go ahead, let them run the programs…….. oh ya, they do. If you think the public controls Wildlife regulations beyond a voice in the choir, you are sadly mistaken…….. again.

Another misnomer you brought up, Biologist can be outfitters and guides……. I by golly, I’ve meet a few of them, in multiple States, including my own.

Your turn…….

 

[hossblur]

I'm gonna repost every joker that had to have his 6x20 on his LR muzzy shooting 209, furrys, and a brake.

You think I'm an azz now, just wait

 

[twopointdn]

Right? Then it will be back to "what this hunt was intended to be" according to some. Let also make it a law that we wear buckskins and coonskin caps.

I would rather them require me to wear buckskins and a coonskin hat over 400 square inches of hunter orange because the muzzleloader hunt is closer to a rifle hunt and people are concerned about safety. Not having to wear orange is one of the reasons I like the muzzleloader hunt and every year in the field I say we are getting closer and closer to being required to wear orange as people extend their ranges with muzzleloaders. Everyone is impacted by what is going on and everyone wants to have the hunt the way it meets their desires the best. People say with the current regulations that no one is stopping you from hunting the way you want and I agree but disagree with that statement. The change to allow magnified scopes did impact my choice in how I hunt and if hunter orange is required in the future because we keep the current regulations then peoples choice of how they hunt with a muzzleloader is impacted. One group wins and one group looses, such is life. It works both ways when people make statements like that. And that is my point. I understand what the desire was of those that got us a separate muzzleloader season in the state of Utah (thank you) and I believe we have gone way past that original intent. I have hunted with a side lock, exposed ignition Knight, closed ignition CVA, and have seen the high tech muzzleloaders and it is easy for me to see that we are closer to wearing hunter orange on the muzzleloader hunt than we are buckskin and coonskin hats. I have stated this several times but here it is again since there are statements that WB members read this stuff (they already have my comments I submitted during the RAC process). I am in favorite of taking magnified scope off muzzleloaders in Utah but as a compromise we need to reinstate to 2015 muzzleloader regulations and be done with this. There was no need to change the regulations back then and by doing so they created this mess we are all in know. If they would have not charge it back then no one would be saying that the muzzleloader hunt is just a early single shot rifle hunt and I would not be thinking about the next regulation that will require me to wear hunters orange on the muzzleloader hunt. Everyone spins the opportunity word the way then want to and everyone is right in their position in their minds but in the end no matter the way this goes opportunity will be lost for some depending on the way they look at the out come. Opportunity was taken away from me in 2015 and I had to adapt and deal with it if I liked it or not and people will do the same if change is made on November 28th. I can say that in the RAC process board members wanted to focus on public comments made at the meeting and counted the for and against comments and then changes their vote based on the “we have heard the public speak tonight”. My problem with that was there were two separate mountain man organizations that spoke on behalf of their organizations and membership and at the RAC meetings they were counted the same as a individual when RAC members stated the for and against public comment numbers. If those same mountain man organizations had their membership show up at the meetings and each member gave a separate statement the RAC would have had a lot different count on the for and against public comments. If the mountain man organizations want to take notes of what happened at the RAC meetings they better change their strategies for the WB meeting and have their membership show up and have each individual address the WB instead of just one representative from their organizations. The RAC showed that they count individual comments and not membership of a organization that has the same stance. Another hint to the mountain man organizations, there is a difference in city council meetings when the little league baseball president stand up in city council meeting to debate the new fee increase and the seats are empty in back of him. If the league fills all the seats and hallways with their membership that supports their positions where do you think the vote ends? I have seen it happen many times in my career and turn out matters at the time of the vote. How many baseball coaches and team moms do you thing speak during the public comment period? A lot, they don’t just leave it up to their league president. Mass emails are sent out and kids show up in uniforms and seats are filled. To the voting city council it appears that the whole community is in support of that position at that monument when in reality it is only a small segment of the community. Little league organization and arts organizations are the best at this tactic and they get their way the majority of the time. Out of all the RAC meetings the Central Region was the most painful to watch and the audience rules of no chanting or applauding were not following. I can’t wait until this is all over.

 

[hossblur]

I have a sneaky suspicion you aren’t aware not every wildlife biologist is currently employees by the Fish/Game/Wildlife agencies.

Apparently you are unaware landowners hire biologists, Federal bureaucracies hire biologists, all other States hire biologists. One State to another, those biologists disagree as much or more as non-biologists do. Imagine that, two biologists disagreeing.

Conservation groups generally don’t hire biologists……. they fund their projects. Memberships are from all walks of life, they likely have no idea how many biologists belong to their org.

Hundreds of biologists are retired and they still express their opinion, only more freely without pressure from their bosses.

But…… go ahead, let them run the programs…….. oh ya, they do. If you think the public controls Wildlife regulations beyond a voice in the choir, you are sadly mistaken…….. again.

Another misnomer you brought up, Biologist can be outfitters and guides……. I by golly, I’ve meet a few of them, in multiple States, including my own.

Your turn…….

Utah has been run by a single special interest group for 30 years.

 

[elkassassin]

And Just F'N Like I Told Niller & Hawky:

I Won't Be On That List!

But I'll Agree With You On One Thing!

You Are An AZZ!

I'm gonna repost every joker that had to have his 6x20 on his LR muzzy shooting 209, furrys, and a brake.

You think I'm an azz now, just wait

 

[hossblur]

And Just F'N Like I Told Niller & Hawky:

I Won't Be On That List!

But I'll Agree With You On One Thing!

You Are An AZZ!

See, we can agree

 

[elkassassin]

It'll Probably Be The Most Watched WB Meeting Ever!

 

[hossblur]

It'll Probably Be The Most Watched WB Meeting Ever!

Maybe if I present a 6x 8' "check", can I get what I want

 

[Deerlove]

Maybe if I present a 6x 8' "check", can I get what I want

I can't decide if I'm going to have to pack around at 12 lb gun with open sides will it even be worth it?

 

[elkassassin]

Thinking About Ordering This New SmokePole Here:​

Might As Well Start Getting It Dialed In!

Hoping I Can See The Front Sight!

 

[2lumpy]

Thinking About Ordering This New SmokePole Here:​

Might As Well Start Getting It Dialed In!

Hoping I Can See The Front Sight!

Some body needs to come out with a single sight option for you guys that can’t focus…… oh, never mind, they already did.

 

[elkassassin]

Then Next Year When I Get My SmokePoles Out To Clean & Oil Them I'll Be Able To Lay Them All Out & Look At The Advancements Of Technology & The Starting Of De-Advancements OF Technology Starting With This Gun!

Thinking About Ordering This New SmokePole Here:​

Might As Well Start Getting It Dialed In!

Hoping I Can See The Front Sight!

 

[hossblur]

I ordered one of these primitive weapons just today

 

[falcon63]

I have a sneaky suspicion you aren’t aware not every wildlife biologist is currently employees by the Fish/Game/Wildlife agencies.

Apparently you are unaware landowners hire biologists, Federal bureaucracies hire biologists, all other States hire biologists. One State to another, those biologists disagree as much or more as non-biologists do. Imagine that, two biologists disagreeing.

Conservation groups generally don’t hire biologists……. they fund their projects. Memberships are from all walks of life, they likely have no idea how many biologists belong to their org.

Hundreds of biologists are retired and they still express their opinion, only more freely without pressure from their bosses.

But…… go ahead, let them run the programs…….. oh ya, they do. If you think the public controls Wildlife regulations beyond a voice in the choir, you are sadly mistaken…….. again.

Another misnomer you brought up, Biologist can be outfitters and guides……. I by golly, I’ve meet a few of them, in multiple States, including my own.

Your turn…….

Fair enough. I meant Utah DNR biologist. The other biologist opinions should not be totally dismissed but since they represent special interest, there opinions should be taken with a grain of salt.
Where did you you get the idea that I think that the public controls wildlife regulations? Also, if we don't listen to Utah DNR biologist, who do you suggest we listen to?

 

[hossblur]

Tipping it with this

I see no difference in open sights vs scopes afterall

 

[HORNhunter7]

I ordered one of these primitive weapons just todayView attachment 127313
View attachment 127314

Tipping it with thisView attachment 127317


I see no difference in open sights vs scopes afterall

Your points can't be any clearer than this --- But you know what ---some still won't get it and continue to argue in essence a muzzleloader still just a muzzleloader.

 

[elkassassin]

QUIT Being Such A TIGHT-ASS!

There's Way Better Options Than That F'N Thing!

Tipping it with thisView attachment 127317


I see no difference in open sights vs scopes afterall

 

[2lumpy]

Then Next Year When I Get My SmokePoles Out To Clean & Oil Them I'll Be Able To Lay Them All Out & Look At The Advancements Of Technology & The Starting Of De-Advancements OF Technology Starting With This Gun!

Yep, you be in competition with the Browning Museum and Buffalo Bill’s Museum.

 

[elkassassin]

What kind Of Primer Does That Gun Use Hossy?

 

[hossblur]

What kind Of Primer Does That Gun Use Hossy?

m-80

 

[2lumpy]

Fair enough. I meant Utah DNR biologist. The other biologist opinions should not be totally dismissed but since they represent special interest, there opinions should be taken with a grain of salt.
Where did you you get the idea that I think that the public controls wildlife regulations? Also, if we don't listen to Utah DNR biologist, who do you suggest we listen to?

I got the idea from this:
“Maybe listen to the biologist rather than special interest groups on the wildlife board.”

You answered your own question regarding “who we listen to”, didn’t you. You said, “

The other biologist opinions should not be totally dismissed but since they represent special interest, there opinions should be taken with a grain of salt.

You said other biologists represent special interests……….. you tell me if an employee of the State’s bureaucracy in charge of wildlife management doesn’t represent the greatest special interest of any of those I mentioned. You best tune in to whose grain of salt you digest.

 

[Vanilla]

Well!

You Guys PISSED JakeH Off Bright & Early This Morning!

It's A FUBAR!

F'ED!

UP!

BEYOND!

A!

REPAIR!

When You Realize This, Maybe Somebody Will Get Serious Enough To Make Some Changes That'll Improve The Deer Herd!

Will someone explain to Bessy what “beyond repair” means?

Will someone finally listen to you and make some changes that will improve the deer herd? Or is it beyond repair? It can’t be both.

Just cut tags and don’t let people hunt! This is the way.

 

[2lumpy]

Will someone explain to Bessy what “beyond repair” means?

Will someone finally listen to you and make some changes that will improve the deer herd? Or is it beyond repair? It can’t be both.

Just cut tags and don’t let people hunt! This is the way.

Here’s a solution for you V. We open up the Henies, Paunsaugunt, Book Cliffs, Vernon, Oak City, the Crawford, to Resident and Non-Resident, over the counter archery, muzzleloader, any weapon. 30 days archery, 10 day muzzleloader and 10 any weapon. Throw in a rut hunt in November 10 through November 20.

Anybody and everyone gets to hunt all four seasons.

Those that want more opportunity can gladly have it have it for twenty years……. then you can decide if you want to keep the that arrangement.

In exchange, those of us concerned about the State wide mule deer population will take the 24 other units. We will close all 24 for 5 years, no hunting for mule deer. None. After 5 years we’ll see what the mule deer population on those 24 units looks like and decide what kind of hunting strategies would be best fit for each unit.
After 20 years, everyone gets to renegotiate for the next 20 years.

Hell V if you want to negotiate I’ll even go one step further, we’ll split it 15 unit each and you can still have the current top six….or because I’m such a nice guy, I’ll divide the 15/15 and you can pick which 15 you want first.

No more bitching, no more complaining, we’ll back off for 5 years, you folks go balls to the wall, hunt your guts out on the best we have to offer, at this point in time. Do it for twenty years…….. that’s opportunity at its finest.

Why not, your getting screwed to death now, you want to hunt, go hunt, to your hearts content.

See, there’s all kinds of passive aggressive things we can do. It’ll be fun.

 

[ktg]

the Henies, Paunsaugunt, Book Cliffs, Vernon, Oak City, the Crawford,

Funny, the first 3 on your list are there because at one time they got so bad that they shut them down for 5 years, and BAM! Best units in the state. (at least when the Books was opened)
IDK about the other 3 on your list.

 

[2lumpy]

Funny, the first 3 on your list are there because at one time they got so bad that they shut them down for 5 years, and BAM! Best units in the state. (at least when the Books was opened)
IDK about the other 3 on your list.

Same reason as the other three. Wouldn t happen today, bucks don’t have fawns anymore.

 

[Vanilla]

That’s an odd response to me saying bessy doesn’t know what “beyond repair” means.

Lump, I’m pretty sure you’re smart enough to understand that I don’t think they should give 150,000 Henry’s tags out each year. But if one must resort to such extreme straw man arguments, it probably means their position is anyway. So I won’t spend a lot of time trying to wade through it.

 

[deadibob]

Of all the different types of hunts in Utah, restricting the any weapon hunts are what is most needed if we are to reduce success rates and therefore be able to increase tags and opportunity. All Utah has to do is the same thing that many states back east already do, STRAIGHT WALL CARTRIDGES ONLY! Yes more effective chamberings will be and are already being introduced but they have their velocity and range limits much more so than bottle-neck cartridges do. This is a much simpler way to reduce technology and easier to enforce than worrying about 1,000 different types of scopes.

Not that it matters but this will also give a small boost in sales to gun manufacturers, mostly with lever actions. Besides now guys will have a legitimate excuse for buying more guns

 

[elkassassin]

Re-Read Post # 444!

Then Re-Read Post 444 Again!

Just To Get It Through Your THICK SCULL!

Within 1-2 Years The Nillers & The Hossy's Would Have Them Units So F'D Up Nobody Could Fix Them!

But Hey!

Get After It!

They Could Just Keep Giving You Un-Limited Tags & You Could Hunt,I Mean Hike Every Year!

But At Least You'd Have That TROPHY Tag In Your Pocket For 20 Years!

GIT-R-F'N-DONE!

What'd Be Nice To Know Is How Many PUMPKINS There'd Be There Hunting Versus Number Of Deer!

It'd Be A GREAT Place Not To Be!

Will someone explain to Bessy what “beyond repair” means?

Will someone finally listen to you and make some changes that will improve the deer herd? Or is it beyond repair? It can’t be both.

Just cut tags and don’t let people hunt! This is the way.

 

[falcon63]

I got the idea from this:
“Maybe listen to the biologist rather than special interest groups on the wildlife board.”

You answered your own question regarding “who we listen to”, didn’t you. You said, “

You said other biologists represent special interests……….. you tell me if an employee of the State’s bureaucracy in charge of wildlife management doesn’t represent the greatest special interest of any of those I mentioned. You best tune in to whose grain of salt you digest.

The biologist I mentioned are not the public. And while I may have answered my own question.......you didn't.

Who do you suggest we listen to to improve the situation?

 

[roadrunner]

Of all the different types of hunts in Utah, restricting the any weapon hunts are what is most needed if we are to reduce success rates and therefore be able to increase tags and opportunity. All Utah has to do is the same thing that many states back east already do, STRAIGHT WALL CARTRIDGES ONLY! Yes more effective chamberings will be and are already being introduced but they have their velocity and range limits much more so than bottle-neck cartridges do. This is a much simpler way to reduce technology and easier to enforce than worrying about 1,000 different types of scopes.

Not that it matters but this will also give a small boost in sales to gun manufacturers, mostly with lever actions. Besides now guys will have a legitimate excuse for buying more guns

"Bottle-neck" cartridges were never an issue before or now. It's the ability to harness the downrange energy.

They use straight wall cartridges back east because of population density to limit the bullets effective range.

You want to limit rifles, go open sight on them as well.

A guy can hit a bright orange 3'x3' steel plate at 400 yds all day at the range open sight, but I can promise you, there isn't a human alive that can effectively do that at 400 yds in a hunting scenario on a deer...

 

[falcon63]

I would rather them require me to wear buckskins and a coonskin hat over 400 square inches of hunter orange because the muzzleloader hunt is closer to a rifle hunt and people are concerned about safety. Not having to wear orange is one of the reasons I like the muzzleloader hunt and every year in the field I say we are getting closer and closer to being required to wear orange as people extend their ranges with muzzleloaders. Everyone is impacted by what is going on and everyone wants to have the hunt the way it meets their desires the best. People say with the current regulations that no one is stopping you from hunting the way you want and I agree but disagree with that statement. The change to allow magnified scopes did impact my choice in how I hunt and if hunter orange is required in the future because we keep the current regulations then peoples choice of how they hunt with a muzzleloader is impacted. One group wins and one group looses, such is life. It works both ways when people make statements like that. And that is my point. I understand what the desire was of those that got us a separate muzzleloader season in the state of Utah (thank you) and I believe we have gone way past that original intent. I have hunted with a side lock, exposed ignition Knight, closed ignition CVA, and have seen the high tech muzzleloaders and it is easy for me to see that we are closer to wearing hunter orange on the muzzleloader hunt than we are buckskin and coonskin hats. I have stated this several times but here it is again since there are statements that WB members read this stuff (they already have my comments I submitted during the RAC process). I am in favorite of taking magnified scope off muzzleloaders in Utah but as a compromise we need to reinstate to 2015 muzzleloader regulations and be done with this. There was no need to change the regulations back then and by doing so they created this mess we are all in know. If they would have not charge it back then no one would be saying that the muzzleloader hunt is just a early single shot rifle hunt and I would not be thinking about the next regulation that will require me to wear hunters orange on the muzzleloader hunt. Everyone spins the opportunity word the way then want to and everyone is right in their position in their minds but in the end no matter the way this goes opportunity will be lost for some depending on the way they look at the out come. Opportunity was taken away from me in 2015 and I had to adapt and deal with it if I liked it or not and people will do the same if change is made on November 28th. I can say that in the RAC process board members wanted to focus on public comments made at the meeting and counted the for and against comments and then changes their vote based on the “we have heard the public speak tonight”. My problem with that was there were two separate mountain man organizations that spoke on behalf of their organizations and membership and at the RAC meetings they were counted the same as a individual when RAC members stated the for and against public comment numbers. If those same mountain man organizations had their membership show up at the meetings and each member gave a separate statement the RAC would have had a lot different count on the for and against public comments. If the mountain man organizations want to take notes of what happened at the RAC meetings they better change their strategies for the WB meeting and have their membership show up and have each individual address the WB instead of just one representative from their organizations. The RAC showed that they count individual comments and not membership of a organization that has the same stance. Another hint to the mountain man organizations, there is a difference in city council meetings when the little league baseball president stand up in city council meeting to debate the new fee increase and the seats are empty in back of him. If the league fills all the seats and hallways with their membership that supports their positions where do you think the vote ends? I have seen it happen many times in my career and turn out matters at the time of the vote. How many baseball coaches and team moms do you thing speak during the public comment period? A lot, they don’t just leave it up to their league president. Mass emails are sent out and kids show up in uniforms and seats are filled. To the voting city council it appears that the whole community is in support of that position at that monument when in reality it is only a small segment of the community. Little league organization and arts organizations are the best at this tactic and they get their way the majority of the time. Out of all the RAC meetings the Central Region was the most painful to watch and the audience rules of no chanting or applauding were not following. I can’t wait until this is all over.

What opportunity was taken from you in 2015?

 

[Vanilla]

They Could Just Keep Giving You Un-Limited Tags & You Could Hunt,I Mean Hike Every Year!

Wait, they are giving us unlimited tags every year? Because for them to “keep” doing that, they have to be doing it already.

How did I miss that Utah is giving unlimited tags every year?

Wait…they have cut over 28% of deer tags in just the last 5 years alone. They issued the least amount of mule deer tags in Utah this year since the 1930s. So they couldn’t have given unlimited tags every year after becoming the most restrictive they’ve been in issuing deer tags during anyone’s lifetime on this forum.

Bessy, are you lying again? Do we need to wash your mouth out with soap?

 

[elkassassin]

Pay More Attention Niller!

Is It Really That Hard To Do?

My Post Is Based Off Of Lumpy's Recommendations!

Just Think Niller!

You'd Be On Cloud Nine For One Season!

Or Maybe Less Than One Minute After Daylight Hits & You See Nothing But ORANGE EVERYWHERE!

Wait, they are giving us unlimited tags every year? Because for them to “keep” doing that, they have to be doing it already.

How did I miss that Utah is giving unlimited tags every year?

Wait…they have cut over 28% of deer tags in just the last 5 years alone. They issued the least amount of mule deer tags in Utah this year since the 1930s. So they couldn’t have given unlimited tags every year after becoming the most restrictive they’ve been in anyone’s lifetime on this forum.

Bessy, are you lying again? Do we need to wash your mouth out with soap?

 

[Vanilla]

Oh, you’re back to the 150,000 hunters on one unit with a deer management goal of what…1,000 total animals? Sounds fun. Maybe they can make those tags hunter choice too!

I see we are fully in the ridiculous realm and are not serious. So yes, you’re back to lying again. Never took you as a dishonest man, bessy. A little crazy, yes, but never dishonest. It’s a bit disappointing. Thanks for ruining Thanksgiving, Hanukkah, Kwanza, and Christmas. Here I thought you were basically a god!

 

[Skykarp]

I'll do my best to make sure it sticks.

On a side note, there will be two people appointed to attend the Shot Show every year going forward to keep eyes on emerging technologies hitting the markets.

Slam - this is a fantastic idea . As someone that works in the fish and hunting industry .I can tell you some of the stuff coming isn’t going to make it any easier on animals. I’ve sat through sales meetings that make me shake my head.

When I comes to the topic at hand I am all for taking the optics off. This comes from someone that built one in 2019 to take advantage of NM and Utahs loose rules ( jokes on me ) I look at it purely from an opportunity standpoint . If someone doesn’t want to shoot their single shot rifle with no scope they can apply in the rifle group.

I know that this change won’t
- improve deer herds
- improve winter range
- create more fawns
- be popular either because it made things easier

At the end of the day I am going to apply and hope to draw a tag . I’m glad to see the passion on both sides and I wish It would equate to more participation in winter range projects ect ect .

 

[elkassassin]

Not Lying About Anything Niller!

The TRUTH Hurts & Some Of You Can't Handle That!

Keep Stating What You Want!

Don't Ever Accept The Truth!

50+ Years Of Poor Management!

But Hey You've Still Got Your Tag!

And,Check Your PM Here In A Bit!

Oh, you’re back to the 150,000 hunters on one unit with a deer management goal of what…1,000 total animals? Sounds fun. Maybe they can make those tags hunter choice too!

I see we are fully in the ridiculous realm and are not serious. So yes, you’re back to lying again. Never took you as a dishonest man, bessy. A little crazy, yes, but never dishonest. It’s a bit disappointing. Thanks for ruining Thanksgiving, Hanukkah, Kwanza, and Christmas. Here I thought you were basically a god!

 

[Vanilla]

But Hey You've Still Got Your Tag!

Yep, that LL has served me well. And should make me want reduced opportunities for dummies like you that didn’t buy one. Tag cuts would benefit me greatly. But alas, here I am…advocating for you to join me in the hills each year!

Not all of us hunters are selfish plicks.

And like George Costanza said: It’s not a lie if you believe it. Right bessy?

 

[lif]

HERE WE GO AGAIN. Biologists and Deer numbers.

This muzzy scope issue is about fairness between hunters, plain and simple.

Everyone keeps arguing about accuracy in the DWR herd estimates and lack of mandatory harvest reporting. This is not the issue at hand in muzzy scopes, LR rifle scopes, or archery advancements.

Our tech advancements, and more importantly our lack of recognition of these advancements, is an issue. Clearly.

Tech advancements have changed so much about our hunting experiences, and unfortunately it has had an impact on hunters not even participating in modern tech.

It is embarrassing that grown men are on here stating such things as:

“If you take mine, you better take there’s too”

“I don’t want to hear the dumb argument about the intent of the weapon restriction “

“There’s no science to support the impact of scopes”


On and on and on.

Apparently we need to search high and low these days to find real men who can just make true statements out loud and then respond accordingly.

 

[elkassassin]

Question Niller?

Can You Mentor Your LL Tag To Somebody Older Than You?

 

[elkassassin]

Take All TECHNOLOGY From Every Weapon Type!

How's That?

HERE WE GO AGAIN. Biologists and Deer numbers.

This muzzy scope issue is about fairness between hunters, plain and simple.

Everyone keeps arguing about accuracy in the DWR herd estimates and lack of mandatory harvest reporting. This is not the issue at hand in muzzy scopes, LR rifle scopes, or archery advancements.

Our tech advancements, and more importantly our lack of recognition of these advancements, is an issue. Clearly.

Tech advancements have changed so much about our hunting experiences, and unfortunately it has had an impact on hunters not even participating in modern tech.

It is embarrassing that grown men are on here stating such things as:

“If you take mine, you better take there’s too”

“I don’t want to hear the dumb argument about the intent of the weapon restriction “

“There’s no science to support the impact of scopes”


On and on and on.

Apparently we need to search high and low these days to find real men who can just make true statements out loud and then respond accordingly.

 

[lif]

Take All TECHNOLOGY From Every Weapon Type!

How's That?

I should at that quote ti the list in my post.

 

[slamdunk]

In all fairness to mule deer.....losses in their numbers are happening all across the western United States.
Even in fairly uninhabited states like Nevada and Central Idaho where human presence and pressure are minimal, deer numbers are struggling and cannot be blamed on "piss poor management".

 

[lif]

I bet wildlife boards from other western states are reading this stuff thinking: “You know what, that scope on muzzy thing might be the way to go.”

It’s crazy that Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Arizona , Nevada, and Colorado haven’t jumped on board yet. I guess they’re just not quite the in depth thinkers.

 

[slamdunk]

I bet wildlife boards from other western states are reading this stuff thinking: “You know what, that scope on muzzy thing might be the way to go.”

It’s crazy that Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Arizona , Nevada, and Colorado haven’t jumped on board yet. I guess they’re just not quite the in depth thinkers.

Arizona is the only state left without restrictions, but it's coming.

It's been Utah dragging their feet on muzzleloader restrictions

 

[lif]

In all fairness to mule deer.....losses in their numbers are happening all across the western United States.
Even in fairly uninhabited states like Nevada and Central Idaho where human presence and pressure are minimal, deer numbers are struggling and cannot be blamed on "piss poor management".

Management needs to go beyond tag allocation in all states. Biology needs to get more in depth if we are going to have any positive impact on management.

 

[elkassassin]

So?

In 50+ Years You Didn't Or Haven't Seen Any Poor Management?

Bucks & Bulls Haven't Been Turned Into $$$?

In all fairness to mule deer.....losses in their numbers are happening all across the western United States.
Even in fairly uninhabited states like Nevada and Central Idaho where human presence and pressure are minimal, deer numbers are struggling and cannot be blamed on "piss poor management".

 

[elkassassin]

There Has Been Some PISS POOR MANAGEMENT In This State!

Now Rather Anybody Wants To Believe It Or Not I Guess That's Totally Up To Them

 

[slamdunk]

There Has Been Some PISS POOR MANAGEMENT In This State!

Now Rather Anybody Wants To Believe It Or Not I Guess That's Totally Up To Them

Of course there has and there continues to be.
First one that comes to my mind as being in the MDF was our "Urban Deer Transplant" program.
Instead of capturing the urban deer and taking them up on the mountain, now they just kill them.
That to me is epic failure.

I also feel depredation doe kills are epic failures.

 

[elkassassin]

Agreed!

Of course there has and there continues to be.
First one that comes to my mind as being in the MDF was our "Urban Deer Transplant" program.
Instead of capturing the urban deer and taking up up on the mountain, they just kill them.
That to me is epic failure.

I also feel depredation doe kills are epic failures.

 

[slamdunk]

Slam - this is a fantastic idea . As someone that works in the fish and hunting industry .I can tell you some of the stuff coming isn’t going to make it any easier on animals. I’ve sat through sales meetings that make me shake my head.

When I comes to the topic at hand I am all for taking the optics off. This comes from someone that built one in 2019 to take advantage of NM and Utahs loose rules ( jokes on me ) I look at it purely from an opportunity standpoint . If someone doesn’t want to shoot their single shot rifle with no scope they can apply in the rifle group.

I know that this change won’t
- improve deer herds
- improve winter range
- create more fawns
- be popular either because it made things easier

At the end of the day I am going to apply and hope to draw a tag . I’m glad to see the passion on both sides and I wish It would equate to more participation in winter range projects ect ect .

This!
Another one who truthfully understands it even though it will directly affect him and his prior purchases.

Thank you Skykarp (love the handle)

 

[elkassassin]

I'm Not Blaming It All On Poor Management!

It's One Of The 50+ Reasons Why Though!

And For lif:

Take It All!

But Don't Take Nillers Favorite High Dollar Camo Shorts/Loin Cloths!

He's Kinda Touchy On That!

 

[roadrunner]

“There’s no science to support the impact of scopes"

No science, just data, and DWR interpreted it incorrectly...

 

[Skykarp]

No science, just data, and DWR interpreted it incorrectly...

I would say bad data in bad data out. It’s really hard to objectively look at data and make a decision if it’s bad.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

In all fairness to mule deer.....losses in their numbers are happening all across the western United States.
Even in fairly uninhabited states like Nevada and Central Idaho where human presence and pressure are minimal, deer numbers are struggling and cannot be blamed on "piss poor management".

You are 100% correct. until us or the neighboring states can figure that out Quit blaming the Biologist.
All these studies they can do with the tools they have now is amazing.
They're trying to make all of us happy. Pretty tall order when the state is growing like crazy and mother nature hasn't been very nice to us over the last 20 years (Like Slam said. Just whish they would relocate the deer out of urban areas and private lands instead of killing them) Drought has effected us all over the western states.

But cutting tags will not grow the herd period. If this where true then we would have over a 700,000 deer in this state with the tags that already have been cut.

Relax people pray for moisture the deer will return. Help with habitat work I know I need to be better. Also keep going after predator's. The road side fences will come but there is a process. I know it is not coming fast enough but they are working on it.

 

[slamdunk]

Until we as sportsmen can collectively try harder to understand the biological aspects of mule deer and everything that creates and maintains their existence, we'll just sit and point fingers at the governing aspects as the culprit to their demise.

The #1 biggest factor in declining numbers throughout the west has been a decade of drought.

No, we can't just look at the snow levels at the ski resorts or the charts and graphs (perfect example of data failure) and say we are in great shape.

Of course our mountains get snow and rain and they can be in great shape, but the winter ground habitat dries and burns up by June even on a decent water year.
When that food source is unhealthy and our deer are forced to eat it without proper nutritional value, those twin fawns are either still born or are so tiny, weak and frail that they don't make it.
Loss of recruitment.

Technology restrictions aren't for saving deer, they are mostly a social issue.
Of course a LR set up helps us harvest these diminishing trophy bucks, that's exactly why Technology is thriving.
As our opportunity to take big bucks declines, Technology emerges to keep up to the demand.
God forbid Cameron Hanes loses photo opportunities.

In the end, we have got to continue collaring projects on deer to learn their migration corridors and figure out ways to assist them to and from winter and summer ranges.
Continue habitat projects.
Continue predator control.
And ultimately.......pray for summer rains to keep winter range habitat healthy for the deer that need it in January and February when they are at their weakest point.

 

[lif]

I'm Not Blaming It All On Poor Management!

It's One Of The 50+ Reasons Why Though!

And For lif:

Take It All!

But Don't Take Nillers Favorite High Dollar Camo Shorts/Loin Cloths!

He's Kinda Touchy On That!

I agree that limits have to be put on all weapons. I just don’t agree with the reason for that being : “Because he took mine, we need to take his.”
That’s never a good reason to do anything, and never leads to logically decisions.

If we could all admit a few things to be fact we could start a logical discussion.

1. Archery and muzzleloader hunts were intended to be primitive weapon hunts
2. Archery and muzzle loader seasons were intended to be more advantageous hunting seasons because of the difficulty of hunting with a primitive weapon.
3. Technology has taken archery and muzzle loader equipment away from the original intent of the seasons.

Once we can all agree on these things, then a logical discussion can follow.

Rifle scopes and range finders should be next.

And these discussions should not need the aid of biology or science. This is common sense ****.

 

[elkassassin]

Hey lif?

I Want you To read This One:

I Hunt With All 3 Weapon Types!

Take It All!

I agree that limits have to be put on all weapons. I just don’t agree with the reason for that being : “Because he took mine, we need to take his.”
That’s never a good reason to do anything, and never leads to logically decisions.

If we could all admit a few things to be fact we could start a logical discussion.

1. Archery and muzzleloader hunts were intended to be primitive weapon hunts
2. Archery and muzzle loader seasons were intended to be more advantageous hunting seasons because of the difficulty of hunting with a primitive weapon.
3. Technology has taken archery and muzzle loader equipment away from the original intent of the seasons.

Once we can all agree on these things, then a logical discussion can follow.

Rifle scopes and range finders should be next.

And these discussions should not need the aid of biology or science. This is common sense ****.

 

[lif]

Hey lif?

I Want you To read This One:

I Hunt With All 3 Weapon Types!

Take It All!

I believed you the first time you said that.

 

[elkassassin]

I Think It's Gonna Take Some TAKE From Each One Of Us/All 3 Types Of Weapons/Hunters To Maybe Help Some!

Then We'll Only Have About 49+ Issues That Need Attention!

And Yes!

For The Love Of GAWD!

I Realize Some Of Them Are Out Of Our Control!

 

[elkassassin]

Ya!

But A Bunch On Here Think I'm Pro MUZZ Only!

WRONG!

I believed you the first time you said that.

 

[elkassassin]

 

[slamdunk]

If cutting 160,000 tags since 1994 hasn't rebuilt our deer herds, explain how crippling our ability to kill them will?

Our success rates aren't 100%

The muzzleloader scope proposal isn't about saving "deer" period.

 

[Tikka]

I'm gonna repost every joker that had to have his 6x20 on his LR muzzy shooting 209, furrys, and a brake.

You think I'm an azz now, just wait

 

[elkassassin]

I'm Saying:

If One Weapon Type Can Give!

So Can The Rest!

AKA We All Need To Give!

If One Type Of Weaponry Can Give!

So Can The Rest!

EVERY F'N WEAPON TYPE HAS SOME KINDA BS TECHNOLOGY THAT IT DIDN'T ONCE HAVE!

 

[hossblur]

Silence in the back!!

 

[elkassassin]

We've Known You're An AZZ For Decades!

Not Silence In The Back!

Silence in the back!!

 

[elkassassin]

Ms Hossy Said You Once Were A Good AZZ!

 

[hossblur]

Ms Hossy Said You Once Were A Good AZZ!

She feels guilty for corrupting a youngster(she's 6 months older)

 

[slamdunk]

Taking turrets off the ALW hunts isn't going to bring deer back......

 

[elkassassin]

And You Admit Taking Scopes Off Of SmokePoles Won't Either!

So Why Not Take All?

Taking turrets off the ALW hunts isn't going to bring deer back......

 

[elkassassin]

She Shoulda Slapped You Harder There Hossy!

She feels guilty for corrupting a youngster(she's 6 months older)

 

[elkassassin]

Let's Just Say This:

THERE WON'T BE ENOUGH CHANGE TO HELP THE SUFFERING DEER HERD!

We Can't Even Agree As Hunters On One GAWD-DAMNED Small Change!

Let Alone Doing Something Serious Enough To Help The Herd!

 

[slamdunk]

And You Admit Taking Scopes Off Of SmokePoles Won't Either!

So Why Not Take All?

We still seem to somehow be missing the point of a restricted weapon season.

Removing the Garmin sight from a bow isn't going to affect success rates there either.

It's about keeping these restricted (by nature) weapon hunts what they were meant to be.

The ALW hunt is an "anything goes" hunt.
And cutting 160k tags there hasn't helped either.

The problem isn't hunting.

 

[slamdunk]

Let's Just Say This:

THERE WON'T BE ENOUGH CHANGE TO HELP THE SUFFERING DEER HERD!

We Can't Even Agree As Hunters On One GAWD-DAMNED Small Change!

Let Alone Doing Something Serious Enough To Help The Herd!

If more people actually took the time to learn what is actually taking place to help our deer, perhaps some tunes would change.

How many people are aware of the dozens of deer capturing and collaring going on exactly right now as I am tapping my index finger on my phone keyboard?

Guess what.....the public are invited and encouraged to help!

Where are we?
Sitting on our a$$es arguing about stuff we know absolutely nothing about.

 

[elkassassin]

Well Let's Just Admit Here:

In 1976 I Got My First Decent Rifle!

7MAG!

GAWD-DAMN I Thought I Was BAD-ASS On The Mountain!

Most Of My Friends Didn't Have A Gun Of That Caliber!

I Was Thinking I Finally Had A Gun Of Maybe Some 300-400 Yard Shots!

The 7MAG Today Isn't Alot Different Today Than It Was Back Then! (I'm Only Using The 7MAG As An Example!)

YES: There Is Some Better AMMO For It Now!

But What Extended It's Shooting/Killing Range?

The Same GAWD-DAMNED Thing That Extended The SmokePoles Range!

The Optics! (And Ammo/Powder Helped Just Like It Helped The Rifles!)

Alot Of People on Here SCREAMING: MuzzleLoaders Shouldn't Be Shooting 500-1100 Yards!

Mine Doesn't!

But Alot Of Hunters Are Packing Top End No Matter The Weapon Type!

If We're Gonna say That SmokePoles Shouldn't Be Shooting 500+ Yards!

Then Maybe It'd Be Fair To Say That Rifles Shouldn't Be Shooting 900+ Yards!

The Rifles Are Doing What They Couldn't Do Now Because Of The Optics & Ammo!

SPLAIN What The Difference Is?

The DWR Allowed The Scopes On SmokePoles Which I Disagreed With From The Beginning!

But To Be What Most Thought Was Fair,Why Shouldn't They Allow It?

They Allowed The Same TECH Advances On Rifles!

And TECH Advancements On Archery Equipment As Well!

Some Of You Say The MuzzleLoader Was Never Intended To Shoot As Far As They're Being Shot Today!

Does That Not Go For Rifles As Well?

Like I've Told You All Umpteen F'N Times!

We Are ALL Guilty Of TECHNOLOGY Of Some Sort Or Another!

Take It All!

Just Take It All!

Anything Less Accomplishes ABSO-F'N-LUTELY Nothing!

We still seem to somehow be missing the point of a restricted weapon season

 

[roadrunner]

I would say bad data in bad data out. It’s really hard to objectively look at data and make a decision if it’s bad.

Based on how they collected the data, it's as good as you can get.

Where they went wrong is using the increase in success for all 3 weapon types and then used rifle as the control to compare the efficacy of scopes on muzzleloaders.

The increase in success of scopes on muzzleloaders would already account for that as a standalone. That's also why you take an average and not just one event in time, as in an increase in year 1 against year 2.

In the case for scopes on muzzy's, you need to take a look at a larger set of data. In this case, you only have a few years on each side that should be analyzed.

This data set is:
1) the state organized as units and not areas. The areas before didn't have the same distribution of hunters that units do and vice-versa.

2) consistency in the data. You cannot use everything available, since uncontrolled variables such as harsh winter conditions and severe drought will significantly affect the data.

3) weapon availability. Similar weapons need to be analyzed where modern inlines capable of consistent shot groups are made at whatever range, for example, a 3" group at 100 yds. This takes time to achieve and the more data points you can focus in a range of data while meeting 1 and 2 above really only gives a small timeframe before and after scopes became legal.

Scopes had a higher affect on success than 2.8%...

 

[Tikka]

Well Let's Just Admit Here:

In 1976 I Got My First Decent Rifle!

7MAG!

GAWD-DAMN I Thought I Was BAD-ASS On The Mountain!

Most Of My Friends Didn't Have A Gun Of That Caliber!

I Was Thinking I Finally Had A Gun Of Maybe Some 300-400 Yard Shots!

The 7MAG Today Isn't Alot Different Today Than It Was Back Then! (I'm Only Using The 7MAG As An Example!)

YES: There Is Some Better AMMO For It Now!

But What Extended It's Shooting/Killing Range?

The Same GAWD-DAMNED Thing That Extended The SmokePoles Range!

The Optics! (And Ammo/Powder Helped Just Like It Helped The Rifles!)

Alot Of People on Here SCREAMING: MuzzleLoaders Shouldn't Be Shooting 500-1100 Yards!

Mine Doesn't!

But Alot Of Hunters Are Packing Top End No Matter The Weapon Type!

If We're Gonna say That SmokePoles Shouldn't Be Shooting 500+ Yards!

Then Maybe It'd Be Fair To Say That Rifles Shouldn't Be Shooting 900+ Yards!

The Rifles Are Doing What They Couldn't Do Now Because Of The Optics & Ammo!

SPLAIN What The Difference Is?

The DWR Allowed The Scopes On SmokePoles Which I Disagreed With From The Beginning!

But To Be What Most Thought Was Fair,Why Shouldn't They Allow It?

They Allowed The Same TECH Advances On Rifles!

And TECH Advancements On Archery Equipment As Well!

Some Of You Say The MuzzleLoader Was Never Intended To Shoot As Far As They're Being Shot Today!

Does That Not Go For Rifles As Well?

Like I've Told You All Umpteen F'N Times!

We Are ALL Guilty Of TECHNOLOGY Of Some Sort Or Another!

Take It All!

Just Take It All!

Anything Less Accomplishes ABSO-F'N-LUTELY Nothing!

Exactly!

 

[lif]

Well Let's Just Admit Here:

In 1976 I Got My First Decent Rifle!

7MAG!

GAWD-DAMN I Thought I Was BAD-ASS On The Mountain!

Most Of My Friends Didn't Have A Gun Of That Caliber!

I Was Thinking I Finally Had A Gun Of Maybe Some 300-400 Yard Shots!

The 7MAG Today Isn't Alot Different Today Than It Was Back Then! (I'm Only Using The 7MAG As An Example!)

YES: There Is Some Better AMMO For It Now!

But What Extended It's Shooting/Killing Range?

The Same GAWD-DAMNED Thing That Extended The SmokePoles Range!

The Optics! (And Ammo/Powder Helped Just Like It Helped The Rifles!)

Alot Of People on Here SCREAMING: MuzzleLoaders Shouldn't Be Shooting 500-1100 Yards!

Mine Doesn't!

But Alot Of Hunters Are Packing Top End No Matter The Weapon Type!

If We're Gonna say That SmokePoles Shouldn't Be Shooting 500+ Yards!

Then Maybe It'd Be Fair To Say That Rifles Shouldn't Be Shooting 900+ Yards!

The Rifles Are Doing What They Couldn't Do Now Because Of The Optics & Ammo!

SPLAIN What The Difference Is?

The DWR Allowed The Scopes On SmokePoles Which I Disagreed With From The Beginning!

But To Be What Most Thought Was Fair,Why Shouldn't They Allow It?

They Allowed The Same TECH Advances On Rifles!

And TECH Advancements On Archery Equipment As Well!

Some Of You Say The MuzzleLoader Was Never Intended To Shoot As Far As They're Being Shot Today!

Does That Not Go For Rifles As Well?

Like I've Told You All Umpteen F'N Times!

We Are ALL Guilty Of TECHNOLOGY Of Some Sort Or Another!

Take It All!

Just Take It All!

Anything Less Accomplishes ABSO-F'N-LUTELY Nothing!

Lots to be accomplished. Have you heard of the word “precedence”? Set it on muzzys. Then limit optics on rifles. Then pull back on archery. Why can’t this discussion just be about muzzys? Then use the decision on reverting muzzy technology to justify limitations on the other weapons.

 

[elkantlers]

Of course there has and there continues to be.
First one that comes to my mind as being in the MDF was our "Urban Deer Transplant" program.
Instead of capturing the urban deer and taking them up on the mountain, now they just kill them.
That to me is epic failure.

I also feel depredation doe kills are epic failures.

They say they did away with that because of disease. That's BS. They transplant all kind of critters around the state and state to state.
It all boiled down to laziness. I hate to say it, but there are some DWR employees that absolutely hated having to actually do something. I was involved with this a bit and a few did nothing but bitcch.
There is no reason not to move deer when possible instead of killing them.
I know for a fact they have all the help from sportsman they could possibly need.