once in a lifetime

marley

marley

Very Active Member
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This post is probably more out of frustration than a solution. But am I the only one that thinks that ALL states should make sheep, goat, and moose a ONCE in a lifetime tag. With the demand for these tags so high and the supply of these tags so low wouldn't it just be fair that everyone gets one crack at them in each state? I look at my 9 year old son that is as much of a hunting freak as I am and can't help but feel for the poor kid at his chances of ever getting these tags will be impossible. I know guys here in CO working on their 3rd sheep tag when there are thousands just chomping at the bit for one chance. How do you think it would change the odds if all the states made it once in a lifetime?
 
I've looked at the #s in Colorado and dropping 100+ or so hunters every year who draw does little to impact the remaining applicants (11800 in 2009)when there are 500+ new people getting in the game every year.

In the last 5 years the # of applicants with dead rams on record reapplying after harvest has dropped from almost 700 to about 350.

The system is self leveling. Once a guy draws most realize after a 5 year wait if successful chances are slim they will catch back up.

The only solution.....more sheep...then more tags.

I highly encourage anyone in any state to join there local sheep organization and work to help the sheep. It's more fun and better for the sheep than complaining.


Sandbrew
 
Hey Sandbrew - Your lucky @$$ does not get to comment on such issues. I have heard about you because you are legendary for being the luckiest SOB in all the western states. You do not need to draw multiple sheep tags because you will just win raffles and pull down other coveted tags. Were you a freaking saint in a previous life? :) Unbelievable?.

Btw?yes - need more sheep habitat, fewer domestic sheep, more wild sheep and more sheep tags so I can draw one b4 I die. I am cool with waiting periods but not making all sheep, moose, goat?once in a lifetime. Except for Sandbrew?he needs special rules.
 
I would have no problem with making them all OIL. I drew a WY moose tag in Area 1 in 2005. took a great bull. I am now eligible to apply again but will not do so for the reasons given by the poster.
 
It drives me crazy when I see someone with 3-4 sheep on their wall and back in the pool for another when there are literally thousands that will be too old to even get a chance at one. I would be okay with someone having a waiting period and back in the pool if they drew a tag and didn't harvest one, but if you get one you are done with that state. Why should someone have multiple chances and others have none?
 
LAST EDITED ON May-06-10 AT 10:13PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-06-10 AT 09:54?PM (MST)

I hadn't looked at CO's numbers before and I can't speak for other states but for the most part I'm with Sandbrew. I don't know many people with 3 and 4 rams on their wall all from the same state and are still applying, unless you are talking raffles which sometimes are better odds and cheaper than a tag and not really part of the equation here.

My biggest worry would be that if people knew that once they drew their chances were done for life they would quit getting involved. More sheep/tags is the best answer and all the work that is involved in more habitat/sheep/tags takes not just money but man hours and volunteers.
 
Being from AK I think there is no reason for sheep, goat, and moose to go to once in a lifetime as we still have general seasons even for these animals. So no I don't think ALL states should go do this.
 
Ummm... no I don't want a OIL regulation. But I am being completely selfish. I killed my Nevada desert 24 years ago. Waited my 10 years and am now carrying 13 points. We have more desert sheep now than at any time in a hundred years because of people who love sheep. Many people don't start working for sheep until they have drawn. Unfortunately MOST people are just not that dedicated unless they see a chance, however small, to get something back.

I would agree with you that in a state like NV where a handful of Rocky tags are all that will likely ever be available that a OIL reg might have a place.
 
Now see.....you've gotten the chance to kill one and probably will get another chance where I and my son and his children will NEVER EVER get that opportunity. I will always apply for a sheep in every state every year, but I will more than likely never get the chance. As you stated, you have a view from the selfish side and my view is from the jealous side. I would be happy for one chance in any state and then never apply anywhere again. Just once!
 
LAST EDITED ON May-07-10 AT 08:44AM (MST)[p]Last year when my son was 8 years old he was sitting down with me when I was going over some draw odds to decide where to apply. He asked me what I was doing and I got the chance to explain how preference points and the draws work. It was quiet for awhile while he was looking at the numbers on my screen. After about 3-4 minutes he started crying. I asked him what was wrong and he said, "By the time I will be able to hunt there won't be any tags left for me." Now he didn't fully understand everything, but he did realize how many tags there were and how many applicants with a lot of points and the fact that he was WAY behind. It crushed me to see him upset about this. I told him that when he turns 12 that I would take him to Africa with me. I got a smile and he walked off, but it left me there thinking about what his hunting career would be like.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-07-10 AT 09:15AM (MST)[p]I'm not really sure why you are so sure you or your son will never ever draw. Yes the odds are not in your favor but the odds aren't really in most peoples favor, certainly not in states with point systems. Yet people without max points and people in random draw states still draw every year. I realize your frustration, I'm way later to the game than many and may never draw but I wouldn't begrudge anyone their chance at a sheep, whether it is their 1st or 4th.

I would wager if you can come up with the money to take both of you to Africa you could come up with the money for a Dall hunt in Alaska. It is about priorities, some people will never hunt Africa because they save all their money for sheep hunts. You can't have it all. Either way good luck. If you've been in the game for more than 3 years you are ahead of me so at least take comfort in knowing you aren't at the end of the list.
 
I went on a dall sheep hunt last fall. There is always that opportunity but they don't do it for me like the Rockies do for some reason. Gotta be the mass I guess, and maybe the fact that I see them year round on my way to work and know that I can't get at em.
 
marley, I really do understand your position. I was honest and said I was being selfish.

Couple questions.

What state do you live in?
How many years have you applied?
How old are you?

As I said I drew 24 years ago. My odds at THAT time as a resident in that area were about 1 in 12. It was between points systems so I had none but neither did anyone else. Little did I know at the time the area I drew would end up being one of THE most sought after areas in a few years. It was newly opened at the time, I believe it was the 2nd or 3rd year.

To my other point, that was about the time in my life I got really interested in sheep. Since then I have been involved with groups and have donated tons of time to the betterment of sheep. I might not have cared enoughg to do that had there been no hope of a reward for me some day in the form of another sheep tag. I would like to think the I would have still done it but I know many who would not.
 
I have been pretty lucky in my lifetime as far as drawing tags. I have drawn both Utah Sheep tags and a buffalo tag. I have had 5 moose tags in Wyoming while others have never had one. I will continue to apply for tags if allowed, but I too think moose, sheep, goats etc. should be once in a lifetime tags so more people can hunt an animal many will never get the chance to hunt.

I drew the Book Cliffs archery deer tag this year and a few years back I drew the San Juan archery elk tag. I think others should have a chance on those great tags rather the samep people getting to hunt them over and over again.

Have a good one BB
 
I live in Colorado

I have been applying for sheep in CO, UT, NV, NM, AZ, and MT for 4 years now.

I am 33 years old.

Buglinbilly, it is nice to hear that someone even on your end of things feels the same way. I do understand NVBighorns side too though because you did draw that tag so long ago. Maybe there should just be longer waiting periods. I do understand the want to help the sheep as well especially after drawing a tag. You have made good points. The plain and simple truth is......I'm just jealous and I do hope for better things for my son's hunting future.

Maybe I will beat the odds someday, but I feel like I used up all my luck with the Henry's tag I drew this year with 1 point. I would trade it though for a sheep tag!
 
>I will continue to apply
>for tags if allowed, but
>I too think moose, sheep,
>goats etc. should be once
>in a lifetime tags so
>more people can hunt an
>animal many will never get
>the chance to hunt.
>

BB not arguing with you, just wondering... if OIL is so important and such a good idea why not step down and not apply any more if you have drawn already? Voluntarily. One name out of the drawing helps one other guy like marley.


marley, I think in one's own state that an individual has the best chances of drawing a tag. The NR tags elsewhere are a real crapshoot so the odds barely even matter unless you are in a top point pool.

FYI, I drew my first desert when I was 29 (yes, do the math, I am that old). I had applied for a number of years before that, at least as many as you have. So in reality, assuming 4 years then and 13 now, I am in worse shape than you. :) I have at least 17 years in Nevada's draw for desert sheep not counting my 10 year wait.

I'm just playing devil's advocate. I hope you draw soon.

I really believe if one could look at the real stars and well-known names among the sheep groups that are responsible for most if not all of our tag opportunity you would find a huge percentage only got involved AFTER hunting sheep. And most, if not all, were hoping by giving back they would get to hunt again. I think in the case of sheep, OIL is a disincentive to those programs. JMHO
 
Just wondering why idaho isnt applied for we get a bad rep but it has pretty good drawing odds...are you trying to get a book animal or just a mature animal..some the moose hunts up in N Idaho go leftover...Hells canyon on the oregon idaho border has some nice rams and i think in terms of sheep hunts the gov tag goes cheep like 10 or 11 k.



47e9fcb352ad748f.jpg

has anyone seen my kittie
 
Thanks for the correction its not my cup of tea yet, i just know it was out of my price range...you can always put in for the sheep raffle...



47e9fcb352ad748f.jpg

has anyone seen my kittie
 
I think another way to up the odds and give everyone a chance in their life would be to make people pony up right now, rather than being able to apply with a cc. If people had to send in checks like they did in the past here in NV, I think the odds would change dramatically. I think fewer people would apply if they had to send in a $900 check for one state, and who knows how much for the other states. Or, people would alternate states, species more, as funds allow.

But here I am sitting on 6 desert and goat points, 2 rocky and cali points, and 3 antelope points. No points for elk, as I just apply for cows, and will be hunting them and deer again this year.

Later,

Marcial
 
I think you're just frustrated Marley. You've only been applying for 4 years, and you're young. By your upper 30's you'll be hunting a sheep, which is younger than alot of people get on their first opportunity. Start applying in Idaho as well, and quit your bitchin, you should be scouting the Henry's for the best muley in north america.;-)
 
I know that eventually I will drawn a sheep tag, it is more frustration for my son than it is for me.
 
I agree with your point that certain limited tags should be once-in-a-lifetime, but why should your son not have as good a chance as anyone else his age to draw a sheep tag eventually. I began applying for my son in all the "points" states when he became age-eligible, and he now has an excellent chance of drawing a sheep tag(s) while in his 30's. It simply is a fallacy to look at the number of points-holders in the system today and assume that they will all still be around in 20 years. Take my word for it, Mother Nature will find a way of "retiring" many of these graybeards from mountain hunting by then.
 
I live in Ca. unfortunatly. Have drawn my 2nd Colo. Sheep tag this year. Did not harvest 25 yrs ago. I think OIL should apply to any hunt with less than 1% odds including deer. I will continue to apply for all the best hunts but I would rather see the laws changed. I don't like to see people drawing 2 times when thousands of others never get those premium tags.
 
I totally agree. I drew a Henry mountains rifle tag this year and I would be totally fine with not being able to ever apply again.
 
Sorry i meant why arent you applying in Idaho odds are so much better without bonus pts. Also when you can apply for one animal only. Dont you think?
 
You drew a Henry's tag and you now have the balls to complain about sheep tags?????? It sucks but there are just not that many of them. Sell a few more crowns and buy a tag. If you really want to hunt them there are ways, but it is not cheap. You do have luck on your side if you have the NR Henry tag.
 
Making all these tags once-in-a-lifetime just gaurantees fewer people will be involved in conserbvation efforts.

Some of the posts above read along the lines of -"Let me get mey one tag, and then I don't have to care about sheep / moose etc. ever again." Not a good plan.

Most states have a long enough waiting period to help level the playing field, but the revenue from additional apps as well as the concern and interest from sportsmen is important. People who are lucky enough to draw multiple tags are applyig in multiple states, putting considerable effort into their hunting pursuits, and generally are more tuned into to conservation efforts both through the state DOW and conservation groups.

We need more people involved in these efforts, not less.

Bill
 
I don't agree they should be once in a life time, at least not here in WY. I also think Wyoming residents should be the sole input on our rules and regs. Same as in any other state. Colorado residents want their state to run things a certain way such as once in a life time, more power to um. The last thing we need are some chuckleheads from California or Texas coming in and trying to influence how things are run in each state. No thanks...
 
I do see your point Marley, as one that comes from a family that has never drawn a sheep tag in our home state of Oregon. My father has applied for over 40 years and my brother and I close to 30. Even though Oregon does have a once in a lifetime rule for bighorn sheep and rocky mountain goat it still doesn't seem to help the odds. Luck plays a big part and hopefully someday luck will shine on all of us.
I see the other side of the coin as well, and would love to hunt sheep more than once in my lifetime, and if you have the means to buy the tag or just plain luck smiles on you, then good for you! I have applied in Idaho and Montana for a few years and hope to draw there someday. I told my wife the other day that the first thing I would do if I won the powerball is going sheep hunting in Oregon. Hope you draw that tag this year Marley, and everyone else as well. Good luck to all and hope everyone's hunting year is a great one.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-02-11 AT 11:45PM (MST)[p]sorry, didn't really read through all the responses....but i know some quality points were made

Marley, I have a very hard time digesting your complaints and your defeatist speculation about your poor boy's apparent dire outlook concerning sheep huntin

as a sheep guide, a thus-far-unsuccessful hunt applicant (19 years), and pretty much life long wild sheep proponent; would it not be my prerogative to whine about the 'big never' over a 9 year old boy's wistful father?

NO! it would not

hell, why aren't all the billionaires in the world cutting themselves off so that that the rest of us poor bastards can make an honest buck, hmmmm?....and that is not even a very good analogy, but you see the point? the "sellout" auction type tags generate literally millions of dollars toward specific wildlife progams that would otherwise be grossly underbudgeted...the rest of it is pretty much luck of the draw, however convoluted it can get with point structures and so forth

seriously man, not tryin to burn ya, but you're WAY out of line....you either LOVE sheep (or moose or goats) or you don't, and 'collecting' one (or 10)ain't the half of it!

5185opposite_twins_183_left_and_181.jpg


a couple good dudes from this year that ain't quite old enough to go yet...but will ripen up very nicely for whomEVER ends up being a near future Lucky Hunter, young or old, great or small....hell, maybe you or your Son!

we are not victims here, we are very fortunate Brother...and a bitter attitude certainly never helped anything ;)

Good Luck Everyone!

*sorry for edit, but its better to try to be clear*
 
There are many guys who have applied a lot longer than you with no sheep tags either. If you took out the guys who had previously drawn sheep tags in the various states it would not make much of a difference for you drawing a tag. The odds would still be very long. I would bet most units in most states have at the very most 1-5 guys in the draw who have previously drawn a tag in that state. So your odds go from 1-100 to 1-95 does it even matter. Look at the states that are once in a lifetime. Do those odds look good? Maybe they look better to you than to me since the tag you drew this year is harder to draw than just about any sheep tag in the states maybe all. Plug away,put in the effort and see what happens maybe you will get lucky and maybe you wont. I put in for sheep in 8 states and have done most for around 10 years. I am just happy if someone I know gets a tag so I can help out. Hopefully one day my name will be drawn but it probably will not.
 
My very first post on this stated that it was more out of frustration than a solution. I don't know the best solution to give more people a chance at hunting sheep. The only thing I could think of is making it a once in a lifetime hunt in each state. I am not in anyway against the auction tags or conservation tags for sheep and if you have the money to buy multiple throughout your lifetime than good for you. I just think that making sheep tags once in a lifetime sounds fair to others that have been applying for 40 years like above. I'd even be fine with having a waiting period implemented for those who don't harvest a sheep on their OIL tag.

I know that eventually I will draw a sheep tag somewhere. And I would gladly take my application out of the draw after that to give others a better chance including my son.
 
My team won the Superbowl a few years ago so I think they should not try to win it again. Everyone should have a turn to win the superbowl, not just the ones who are more lucky! LOL

Come on, grow up! This isn't little league where everyone is a winner!

Please don't start whining with only 4 years of serious applications. With 100 to 1 odds you simply have not paid your dues!

After you have 2 or 3 DECADES of sheep applications in multiple States you can start to feel like you have really tried to get a permit! As for your son, he'll be fine (maybe). I'll be dead before he should have a sheep permit. My son will have a couple sheep and his points will all be burned. My daughters will have all their points burned too.

I have been lucky over the last 30+ years of sheep applications. I HAVE DRAWN ONE(1) DESERT AND ONE (1) ROCKY! I've made over 150 sheep applications!

Take this to the bank. If I can Legally make application I WILL. If you can get all the States to change to a OIL system then more power to you. That's the way the game is played and we will both play by the rules.


Good luck to you and your son... I really mean it!
BTW; Good luck to me too! I'm getting old and need a couple more sheep tags.

Zeke
 
I think the points made by several on here about people loosing interest in the conservation of these animals and their habitat when they can't hunt them again after drawing is extremely valid. I don't know a way around it. I do my part as much as I can here in CO whenever I can. I think if others could go on the sheep counts conducted every year or the tagging outings it could strike up more interest. I think that if these outings would be better publicized to inform people about when and where these take place it could have tremendous effects as far as conservation goes. Maybe increasing habitat to increase numbers would be more beneficial than limiting the tags to OIL. Then again do both and the numbers just went up.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-11 AT 12:00PM (MST)[p]damnit Zeke, yer fired!!! a desert AND a rocky??? that's way more luck than any individual deserves!!! and then, you have to terrible manners to keep applying anyway????? YOU are taking rams right out of my crosshairs...and I REALLY deserve one!!!

:)

Marley, we're not trying to be jerks...but your message comes across as selfish and self important, under the thin and tired veil of "advocacy of fellow hunters' interests and opportunity"....maybe i'm completely wrong, but that's how it looks

What if you knew you would NEVER get a chance to hunt sheep? would you still care about them? or is it only the chance for you to possibly hang one's head on your 'trophy wall' that justifies their existance in your mind?


5536peter_walker.jpg


this is my good bud from Canuck, and i hate him! he's killed numerous dalls and stone's, gets to hunt bighorn every year on general tag, and still has the callous audacity to apply for sheep everywhere possible, draw them tags right out from under more deserving prospective hunters (like you perhaps?), and then truck on down here and knock off one of MY forty inch heads!!!

can you imagine???

once-in-lifetime regs are a romantic human ideal, the numbers don't play out much differently either way

i think a much better regulation would require any successful sheep applicant to pass a series of rigorous examinations before finally being awarded the license itself...yep, something like that would go a long way to weed the riff raff 'shopper' types out, and see that the tag is awarded to a true sheep lover that really does deserve and appreciate it

now how's that for a brilliant elitist proposal? hell, suits me anyway! ;)

seriously, Cheer Up Gloomy :)
 
You do have me understood completely wrong. Do I want a sheep tag......hell yeah....just like thousands of other people. If that makes me selfish then I will wear that label. I am in no way shape or form saying I deserve one more than anyone else that is applying for their first tag. I'm not the only one on this thread that feel this same way even amongst those that have had the tag in the past. I drew a deer tag this year that 99% of people applying for the rest of their lives will never get and I have retired that application. I feel lucky to have had the opportunity to hunt dall sheep, I know that most will never have that chance. I count my blessings. Congrats on the stud ram! Yes I do want one for my wall......is that bad? I wish one for more walls than mine.......is that bad? If it is.....I'll wear the "villian" label too !
 
Marley,

NO, you are not bad for wanting another (different type) ram.
We are all a little selfish, we like to take animals and call them our own. It's not a bad thing.
We are really alike. The difference is I have killed a ram in your wonderful State and I have NEVER made application there since. BUT I don't fault those who do make application after they have drawn.

I have been applying Bighorn in 4 other States and will/should have another tag some year before I pass-on. I will also have my second Moose tag in Wyo this year or next. The first one was in 1976 (when you were born prob). Can you fault me for wanting to hunt them again?

The only area on which we disagree is the making of application subsequent to successfully drawing. I don't think those handful of applicants will hurt you or your son. The numbers are just not significant enough to matter.

Best regards, Zeke

Greatwestern,
I've never been fired before. It's not too bad. Thanks! LOL
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-11 AT 03:33PM (MST)[p]Unfortunately Marley, life is not fair!
I mean Zeke has a full head of hair and I am bald as a cue ball!
Not fair!!
My 23 year old son drew a Desert Sheep while I have applied for 40 years without a draw!
Not Fair!!!
Also, one of my old time friends drew a Desert Sheep tag in an OIL State but because of some bad circumstances, he didn't kill a sheep, so he won't ever get another chance.
Not Fair Again!!!!

Statistically there are very few people who have drawn multiple sheep permits in non-OIL states. The waiting periods are significant and those who have drawn more than one, thumbed their nose at insurmountable odds, financially put themselves out there, paid their dues and beat the odds.
If you will do the same thing...be patient and keep putting in, in every state you can, we (me too) will all eventually draw a tag or two...including your son.
 
+1 Littlebighorn,

I hope I get the call next year that you've finally drawn your Desert! I'd like sharing a sheep camp with you again. Can't wait!

Marley,
I have a feeling that you will be dedicated enough to have one of those coveted tags before it's all said and done.

Well.... we've beat this topic to death and still no clear winner! LOL

Oh ya, I loved the very first comments from Sandbrew! SPOT-ON!

Zeke
 
No hard feelings here. When I originally posted this question back in May my whole point in the post was to ask how much it would effect the odds if every state were to go to OIL. I didn't mean to ruffle feathers or make my opinion the only way. Very valid points have been made from the other side of things that I haven't thought about before.

My one and only sheep hunt ended with only 1 legal ram in 2 weeks of hard hunting and both my friend and I shooting at the same time with one dead ram with 2 bullet holes at 523 yards. With the bad luck of the coin flip that ram is now at someone elses house. So I'm still ramless (Is that a word?). I'm saving a spot though!

Good luck to you all in this years draw. The application time is almost as fun and nerve racking as the hunt for me.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-11 AT 00:15AM (MST)[p]ya Zeke, the whole thing was pretty much wrapped up with John's shrewd response at the start

he knows the deal, and he contributes a tremendous effort to the wild sheep cause, most particularly in Marley's home state

he provided our hapless young Friend stats on a system that would supposedly 'benefit' best from a once-in-lifetime mandate, given the relative high numbers of allocated tags...and illustrated clearly that it still wouldn't make a considerable difference

at the other extreme, NM (once-in-lifetime) awards 1 desert license annually for which, over the last decade, about an average of 5000 folks apply yearly...so, eliminating a potential 10 previous tag holders from the gamble has cost the general odds what? shoot, you guys do the math.... ;)

but Brew's recommendation to actively support sheep programs is the best advice...lucky tags, or big bucks conservation permits, or neither!...there are a lot of ways to get involved and experience our wonderful wild sheep, while working positively to make a real difference in expanding our collective hunt opportunity

and ya for sure, great post LittleBighorn...true words!

Cheers all
 
Hey Marley, not trying to pile on here. I've already said what I think and you make some good points. But let me ask you a question.

You drew a fantastic, much coveted mule deer tag this year on the Henries. And you killed an absolute smoker buck.

Soooo... (you know where this is going)... should you be allowed to apply for a similar or equal mule deer tag again? I know mule deer tags are not as rare as sheep tags. BUT Henries mule deer tags are.
 
I already stated above that I will be retiring that application. So there's one less in that pool. Hope you draw its an awesome experience.
 

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