States with points need a re-boot

fullthrottle

fullthrottle

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Heard a podcast the other day, the discussion of point systems came up. I have always been a huge advocate of point systems, but it is and has become painfully obvious that the supply and demand for tags has become too high to justify any point system. Youth coming up have a near zero percent chance to draw any highly sought after tag with a point system. I have pushed for and been an advocate for point systems such as Nevada, Utah, Wyoming, Arizona. Where they have a point system in place that still allows for some level of random draw.
I have given a few on here a rash of sh*t over my reasons in support of point systems.
My tune has completely changed. We have got to get away from point systems. Even states with general tags are becoming near impossible to draw tags within a reasonable amount of time and getting worse.
How do we get away from points? End it now, no more points issued. Allow those with points to be washed out of the system. Square there points, or whatever strategy you use to give those with points some sort of advantage because of their investment. (not my idea, but a sensible one).
I also support some sort of waiting period after you draw a tag is a fair idea, maybe a couple years.
It's a tough deal, in my home state of Utah tags have become harder to draw each year, even general elk tags are becoming much more difficult to obtain.
Every state for that matter gets worse every year. Someone starting out applying for tags right now has about a zero percent chance of catching up to a certain number of tags, and getting worse every year.
Even whitetail states like Iowa, Kansas are beginning to see the slippery slope of point systems. Points are not the answer, and in the long run a determent to our hunting heritage.
Think its time for a wake up call. I don't like it, I really like the idea behind point systems. Pay your dues, build up points to draw a tag. But the demand is to high, and these systems all but cut out an entire segment of up and coming hunters. Who will never have a chance to draw certain tags, and getting worse.
 
fullthrottle said:
It's a tough deal, in my home state of Utah tags have become harder to draw each year, even general elk tags are becoming much more difficult to obtain.
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This is a patently false claim. Go buy a general elk tag right now, some still available and have been for a week or more plus all the unlimited options. Here is the website, go hunt buddy:


Utah has the best LE system, half to max points half to random. Lot's of great LE deer antelope, and elk tags can be guaranteed drawn within a decade, full random you have no guarantee of drawing a tag ever.

If someone isn't hunting big game every single year it's because they lack motivation or creativity or both
 
I can't say I'm for or against points. I'm also not that sure that they're the problem. Does getting rid of points change the supply and demand factor? That's the only way to truly help the chances of drawing tags. Maybe without them, some aren't as dedicated to put in every year?

Everyone wants to harvest trophy animals, but no one wants to wait to get the chance. I think the paradigm is finally switching from the one end to the other.
 
Here’s a novel thought. Grow more animals………

Thatever it takes:
When demand for salmon goes up, we raise more salmon.

When demand for oysters goes up, we grow more oysters.

When demand for elephants goes up, we grow more elephants.

When demand for ducks goes up, we grow more ducks.

When demand for black labs goes up, we grow more lads.

When demand for big horn sheep goes up, we grow more big horns.

When demand for bison goes up, we grow more bison.

When demand for grizzly bears goes up, we grow more orizzlies.

When demand for gray wolves goes up, we grow more wolves.

Not to mention, sheep, hogs, bovine, wheat, corn, soy, potatoes and tomatoes.

But, by he!!, whatever it takes, we refuse to grow more deer, elk, or moose. That’s a riddle worth solving…….. don’t you agree?
 
Eliminating points does not increase one's odds of drawing a tag. It simply increases the number of people who draw while young. It also increases the number of people who draw much later, or never draw at all. I like the system, mostly because it effectively removes those who are willing to wait a very long time for one particular unit from the tag pool on any given year, thereby leaving the less desirable units/tags to those willing to accept what is available to them at that time. If not for points, and recognizing the long odds of the unit they chase, many of the former would become part of the latter, thereby reducing the draw odds in the less competitive units. By forgoing tags for an extended period of time, they ensure that more tags will go to others who want them immediately. In any event, I am accustomed to waiting for next available reservation at the repair shop, dental office, etc. I do not expect them to erase their schedule each day to ensure that I have a shot at an appointment this morning, and my emergencies are no greater than anyone else's...
 
A hybrid system is the answer. Utah, Arizona have it right IMO. There is zero answer for the supply/demand problem, except more resource. Points aren’t going away.

Also, If you can’t get tags, then you’re not casting a wide enough net. I get tags every single year. Are they all “Trophy” tags… No, but I always have tags. It takes work, time and some $$, but they are there.
 
mickeyelk said:
So what do you do with all the people that have tons of points. Points cost money. Give back there point money? The system is in place and it won't change, and it shouldn't.
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*How do we get away from points? End it now, no more points issued. Allow those with points to be washed out of the system. Square there points, or whatever strategy you use to give those with points some sort of advantage because of their investment. (not my idea, but a sensible one).
 
I have spent thousands already on points for my son, 22, so that when he's out of college, he can at least have a decent tag or 3 when he's young. It hurts paying those license fees in 3 or 4 different states just so he can use those points 5-10 years down the road. You gotta do it these days or you'll never have a chance to draw a better than average tag. I know, I know....hunters shoot big deer on general tags too...we get that. However, some don't live in an area that allows them the time to go scout...or doesn't have a job where he's able to take 4 days off to go scout. If I hadn't bought LE points, I would have a few less 155" deer on my wall than if I didn't . LOL

I don't see states dropping the point systems....I don't think you can with so many hunters invested already.
 
There is a certain amount of funding that’s needed, so even if the states flushed the points systems (not going to happen), that revenue source would have to be replaced with something. Every state has a strategy, and they’re all different….

For instance Wyoming pumps all of the NR for points every year, and then reduces tags constantly to move the carrot further and further away, while we all fund their Game and fish dept. They also fuel this with constant B!tching about Non resident hunters…. It’s an amazing program they have.
 
El Gringo said:
Also, If you can’t get tags, then you’re not casting a wide enough net. I get tags every single year. Are they all “Trophy” tags… No, but I always have tags. It takes work, time and some $$, but they are there.
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"My" issue isn't getting tags. I have multiple tags every year. The issue is the system's broke, and will only get worse. Random system sucks, but at least it gives those just getting into this game a better chance of pulling some decent tags. If it's a point system their odds are almost if not zero. Even in bonus systems like mentioned above.
Points or no points will have very little effect on myself. I have plenty of points in numerous states. Funds to buy landowner tags, and own land in states that provide tags. I will be hunting as much as I like, on some solid tags for years to come.
My concern is for the up and comer's. Point system is broke. It won't be long where even "good", not great tags take 40+ points to draw.
Points will eventually take an entire generation out of hunting. But I guess in reality, that will eventually be the case regardless.
Enjoy it as long as you can, I guess...
 
fullthrottle said:
"My" issue isn't getting tags. I have multiple tags every year. The issue is the system's broke, and will only get worse. Random system sucks, but at least it gives those just getting into this game a better chance of pulling some decent tags. If it's a point system their odds are almost if not zero. Even in bonus systems like mentioned above.
Points or no points will have very little effect on myself. I have plenty of points in numerous states. Funds to buy landowner tags, and own land in states that provide tags. I will be hunting as much as I like, on some solid tags for years to come.
My concern is for the up and comer's. Point system is broke. It won't be long where even "good", not great tags take 40+ points to draw.
Points will eventually take an entire generation out of hunting. But I guess in reality, that will eventually be the case regardless.
Enjoy it as long as you can, I guess...
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Understood. What’s the alternative?
 
I don't know... I guess ride it out as long as we can. Any change made is probably in vein.
The writing's on the wall. Hunting is going to be real tough for the public, blue collar, just looking to draw a general tag sportsman, 20 years from now. Look what has transpired the last 10 years. Unfortunately the long term of hunting is looking pretty grim.
 
There is no big game magic bullet draw system. Every state that has one does something a little different. Every state has a bunch of people pissing and moaning about not drawing tags.

There are two options to solve the issues and both of them are troublesome. #1 would be reduce the amount of applicants, or #2 increase the amount of animals.

Bill Gates is working on #1, and #2 is a wildcard since we lose animals to disease, predators, and winter kill.
 
These types of threads are always interesting. Oftentimes, those that have burned their points, now complain that they "will never get a tag" (I am not saying the author of this thread feels this way, but many do). I can almost guarantee most of these people would have thrown a fit if a point reset had been proposed when they were sitting on max points for a sheep tag.

We are stuck with it and Idaho has it right. I sure hope they never cave and follow Utah's stupid draw system. There never should have been a points system.

There is no quick fix to the problem and unfortunately, there is too much demand for the few available tags.
 
El Gringo said:
A hybrid system is the answer. Utah, Arizona have it right IMO. There is zero answer for the supply/demand problem, except more resource. Points aren’t going away.

Also, If you can’t get tags, then you’re not casting a wide enough net. I get tags every single year. Are they all “Trophy” tags… No, but I always have tags. It takes work, time and some $$, but they are there.
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If I had a lot of money to spend I'm sure I could get tags every year. I still get my general season tag in Idaho even if I don't draw. I'm not afraid of hard work or spending a lot of time on a "non trophy tag". I gave up my chance to make a lot of money to serve my country and now as a disabled vet my chance at making a lot of money isn't an option like it used to be. I'm ok with that because I was happy to serve my country and I take my injuries with pride and I'm just happy to be able to still have the chance to spend time with my kids outdoors unlike some of my buddies that didn't come home.
 
There’s no reason not to build points somewhere if that’s what you wana do. There’s only one maybe two states I’d consider.

Personally I like the random draws for out of state. But I live in a state where you can shooot the pissss into a pisscutter. Fact is there are plenty of “general” tags or “otc” tags in several different states.

Take California for example there there are over 150,000 tags. That’s right 150,000 tags, 95,000 are archery only but still over 55,000 rifle tags. Even you can shoot a California forky! Not that I’m advocating anyone to waste their time like that though just an example.
 
Another one of these post! I have read so many about how do we change the states point system to make it better and so many people try and come up with a solution there is no true solution beside what was already stated more animals on the landscape. Not to mention we can all sit here tell we are blue in the face coming up with ideas of making it better but who is going to convince a state or multiple states to change what they currently have.
 
Supply isn't low. It's consistent with adjustments made per yearly conditions.

The quantity demanded hasn't gone up, only the amount demanding.

It's similar to the conditions one sees when price gouging events occur, only here that gouging is in the form of points or bad luck. It isn't in the form of a higher price.

I agree with the above. UT has the best system as far as points against random goes.
 
I Tried Telling DRAT'S That The Point System Wouldn't Work!

I Got Told BS!

Well Here We Are!

Hows That Working For You Just About Now?

I Asked People What Would Happen Down The Road 25-30 Years?

Well!

Here The Hell We Are!

I Can Guarantee You One F'N Thing!

They Ain't Taking My Points!

And If They Do............................................!

Don't Say It Can't Happen!

It Happened Recently!

Guys That Were Earning Lion Points To Maybe Have A Chance at A Nice Tom Someday Got Screwed Over Royally By The DWR when They Opened It Up for a Free For All!

What Do You Think The Chances Of Finding a Decent Tom in a Year Or Two in This State will Be?

Most People Are Like:

Ya,Kill All The Lions!

Without One F'N Thought About The Guys That Lost Their Points!

I Sure Will Be Glad When They Open Deer & Elk Season up Year Around & Un-Limited!

Think People!
 
roadrunner said:
Supply isn't low. It's consistent with adjustments made per yearly conditions.

The quantity demanded hasn't gone up, only the amount demanding.

It's similar to the conditions one sees when price gouging events occur, only here that gouging is in the form of points or bad luck. It isn't in the form of a higher price.

I agree with the above. UT has the best system as far as points against random goes.
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I’m sure a poor one to call the kettle black, I admit……. but I’m calling “word salad” on ya roadster.
 
I like the current system. That being multiple western states do different things. Some random, some points makes each draw season exciting. I have put into NM for 18 years and never drawn a tag ( not top tier hunts either) but I love the pure random chance that this could be my year. I love looking at what units I could draw with my current points in CO and arguing with myself about what to do. Variety is the spice of life. No system is perfect but a mix of all of them is pretty darn close.
 
JPickett said:
i love the "investment" comments about "my points" :ROFLMAO: if thats big money to you you probably shouldn't be spending it on lottery tickets with a guaranteed L when they draw numbers :LOL:
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I think if anyone thought it was big money, they'd be smart enough to not buy into the game.
 
In your neck halfthrottle! Love the point game, works great for all I know that use it. Still plenty of hunting to do without points too.
 
I like the mix of states. My original home state of Idaho I have never drawn a tag even though I still apply. Hence, I don’t like random only states. :)

Idaho is so expensive and with my poor luck I will probably no longer apply after my current 3 year license expires. Utah is probably my favorite system. Once I burn points in Colorado I probably won’t apply any more due to no random tags.

As for my kids, they have all shot more animals by the time they are 18 than I did. Several states have great youth hunts and reduced fees.

As for the future of hunting, trophy hunting has seen its day for me. I’ll take general tags, anterless tags and family hunts. No need to change anything. Time in Gods country is enough!!
 
usafvet said:
Glad I live in Idaho where we don't have points so that my kids and I at least have a chance to draw....I have only ever drawn an antelope tag and one elk tag but I'll take my low odds over no chance for 10+ years any day.
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Yet.
Any year now Idaho will adopt a point system so be ready to get in on the ground floor!
 
I don't think Idaho will they love that we have to purchase that hunting license once people draw they might bail out
 
I drew my ram and bull moose tag in CO this year. I ready for a change now in CO--ha ha.

If preference points were just a token fee and you didn't have to buy a license I think most of us wouldn't be to bent about waiting decades for a high quality tag, even if we understand we may never get the tag, But when you have states that keep changing the fees to get the preference point and changing the ratios that means it became even harder to draw or changing the system then we have to at least consider the longtime applicants.

I have 27 nonresident points in AZ, and would have drawn my dream tag 10 years ago for elk if they hadn't changed the system to 10% for highest point holders and 10% random. It pisses me off to think I have given AZ another $1600 in license fees to acquire points to stay in the game for one of these dream tags.

With the exception of AZ ,I am done with applying as a nonresident in a states that have preference points and told my son he is own his own if wants to keep collecting points in other states. As soon as I draw the AZ tag - I am out.
 
States that keep the points you buy like Montana is a scam. Places like Wyoming/ California that your points get burned make more sense
 
There are a certain group of people, I am sure, who are at or near the top levels of bonus/preference points in nearly every state, I wonder if points systems went away if tags would be somewhat redistributed amongst the masses rather than just the guys who were born early enough to start playing the game 35 years ago. Also if point systems were eliminated I do believe odds would improve across the board, guys(myself included) are not going to be forking over nonrefundable license fees in 5+ states without points to show for it. Increasing wildlife populations is a nice thought, and if it were that easy I am sure it would be done already, but you can effectively drive down demand by removing that little incentive to apply every year that is the bonus/preference point. As it stands guys cant not apply for fear of falling behind in the points game, if you remove that fear it spreads applicants around more places rather than cramming them all into every state draw
 
fullthrottle said:
Heard a podcast the other day, the discussion of point systems came up. I have always been a huge advocate of point systems, but it is and has become painfully obvious that the supply and demand for tags has become too high to justify any point system. Youth coming up have a near zero percent chance to draw any highly sought after tag with a point system. I have pushed for and been an advocate for point systems such as Nevada, Utah, Wyoming, Arizona. Where they have a point system in place that still allows for some level of random draw.
I have given a few on here a rash of sh*t over my reasons in support of point systems.
My tune has completely changed. We have got to get away from point systems. Even states with general tags are becoming near impossible to draw tags within a reasonable amount of time and getting worse.
How do we get away from points? End it now, no more points issued. Allow those with points to be washed out of the system. Square there points, or whatever strategy you use to give those with points some sort of advantage because of their investment. (not my idea, but a sensible one).
I also support some sort of waiting period after you draw a tag is a fair idea, maybe a couple years.
It's a tough deal, in my home state of Utah tags have become harder to draw each year, even general elk tags are becoming much more difficult to obtain.
Every state for that matter gets worse every year. Someone starting out applying for tags right now has about a zero percent chance of catching up to a certain number of tags, and getting worse every year.
Even whitetail states like Iowa, Kansas are beginning to see the slippery slope of point systems. Points are not the answer, and in the long run a determent to our hunting heritage.
Think its time for a wake up call. I don't like it, I really like the idea behind point systems. Pay your dues, build up points to draw a tag. But the demand is to high, and these systems all but cut out an entire segment of up and coming hunters. Who will never have a chance to draw certain tags, and getting worse.
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So what makes you think that getting rid of points systems is gonna increase supply and decrease demand? It will not make it any easier to draw a tag, (also fyi, General elk tags were super easy to get this year, there’s still plenty left of all types and seasons)
 
I played the game that had to be played, and could afford paying for points. less people and more game is not ever going to happen, just the opposite. the good news for young people is my wife and I will die with points and we wont be alone. Idahoes cost to play is one of the highest and I still have not drawn but I have not use the chance to hunt there either. Hunting opportunity is vast with or without points especially if your a bird hunter also. do I like a point system , was there a choice. With all my points it has made me in a rush to do all these hunts and I never didn't not hunt, time is running out on people who started at the beginning.
 
SanPitch said:
So what makes you think that getting rid of points systems is gonna increase supply and decrease demand? It will not make it any easier to draw a tag, (also fyi, General elk tags were super easy to get this year, there’s still plenty left of all types and seasons)
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I don’t… Some of you are missing the point. For up and comers beginning the point game now, they have about a zero percent chance to draw a top 20% tag in their lifetime. That’s it, nothing more, nothing less.
I’m not arguing the availability of general tags, although those too have become much harder to get and will continue to do so.
People… I love the idea behind a point system. But it just doesn’t work in the long run.
I’m not making a hard push one way or the other. Just pointing it out, really sucks for the up and comers.
 
SanPitch said:
So what makes you think that getting rid of points systems is gonna increase supply and decrease demand? It will not make it any easier to draw a tag, (also fyi, General elk tags were super easy to get this year, there’s still plenty left of all types and seasons)
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Read my post directly above to understand how it could at least decrease demand
 
Wiszard said:
I think if anyone thought it was big money, they'd be smart enough to not buy into the game.
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Correct. The problem with killing the point system now in order to favor the young is that it deprives another generation of their opportunity--those who gave up twenty years of hunting in order to collect those points.
 
fullthrottle said:
I don’t… Some of you are missing the point. For up and comers beginning the point game now, they have about a zero percent chance to draw a top 20% tag in their lifetime. That’s it, nothing more, nothing less.
I’m not arguing the availability of general tags, although those too have become much harder to get and will continue to do so.
People… I love the idea behind a point system. But it just doesn’t work in the long run.
I’m not making a hard push one way or the other. Just pointing it out, really sucks for the up and comers.
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The odds of drawing hard to get tags have always been horrible.

If they weren't, you wouldn't have seen a move to point systems to start with.

You also wouldn't still have guys with 20-30+ points if the premium tags were easy to draw.

Random system, point systems, the premium tags are always going to be difficult to draw.

The genie that's out of the bottle is not going to be easy to put back in. Too many with points, and too much $$$ involved for the departments.

There are some things you can do to help point creep. Lose points for drawing any tag in initial or any other draw regarding of choice. No point averaging, things like that. No purchasing of a general tag if you applied for LQ.
 
mickeyelk said:
So what do you do with all the people that have tons of points. Points cost money. Give back there point money? The system is in place and it won't change, and it shouldn't.
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This is actually one of the major issues that has come from "buying points". The $10 should have always been the cost of applying for a tag. Since they allowed people to apply that $10 to "buy a point" rather than actually putting in for a tag, points have a value. If the $10 had always been just to apply for a tag, then points would be worthless and they could be thrown out without any rebuttal that money needed to be reimbursed. Now, if they were to trash the points, that argument could be valid, costly, and ultimately, a huge deterrent.
 
idahomuleyhunter said:
The best thing about Idaho is you can't put in for every species every year. All states need to follow this lead, your odds would jump about 3-4 fold.
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I think they need to take it a step further though and make you choose between elk and mule deer also. I always apply for both but only because I can. I think drawing odds would go way up in the good elk and muley units.
 
States with points should follow the 80/20 rule. 80% random draw and 20% to max point holders. I like AZ's format considering we have less animals than most western states but we have an ever growing human population. 7.6 million now and expected to grow to 8.5 by 2030.
 
huntazido said:
States with points should follow the 80/20 rule. 80% random draw and 20% to max point holders. I like AZ's format considering we have less animals than most western states but we have an ever growing human population. 7.6 million now and expected to grow to 8.5 by 2030.
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Only 10% go to the max holders the other 10% is goes to the random draw.
 
BuzzH said:
There are some things you can do to help point creep. Lose points for drawing any tag in initial or any other draw regarding of choice. No point averaging, things like that. No purchasing of a general tag if you applied for LQ.
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man that’s a great idea and might even make certain general tags better as well.
 
fullthrottle said:
*How do we get away from points? End it now, no more points issued. Allow those with points to be washed out of the system. Square there points, or whatever strategy you use to give those with points some sort of advantage because of their investment. (not my idea, but a sensible one).
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You realize how many years it would take to “work through” those with points for the high demand hunts?
 
mickeyelk said:
So what do you do with all the people that have tons of points. Points cost money. Give back there point money? The system is in place and it won't change, and it shouldn't.
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Give them 3 years notice that the system will change. Gives them 3 years to burn them.

But if you applied for tags, not just point only, you didn't pay for a point, you paid for an app fee.
 
I’m sorry, but with as much youth opportunity that is available in utah and many other states, I can’t even begin to care about their “almost impossible” draw odds in their lifetime, because that simply isn’t true. And that’s being said by me with 2 kids 5 and under. Not everyone can be a winner. Oh well. Take what you can get and make the most of it.


Utah has the best draw system. Everyone has a shot. The ONLY thing I would change in the utah draw, is I would take 25% of the preference tags (general and antlerless) and throw them in a random pool. That way, still everyone has a chance and not just those with a pile of points.

And your statement of getting impossible to have general deer tags is also not correct. You could hunt deer every year if you wanted. It won’t be you preferred season or unit. But you can do it.

General elk tags have reduced this year in demand. You can still buy one.
 
Bux n Dux said:
I’m sorry, but with as much youth opportunity that is available in utah and many other states, I can’t even begin to care about their “almost impossible” draw odds in their lifetime, because that simply isn’t true. And that’s being said by me with 2 kids 5 and under. Not everyone can be a winner. Oh well. Take what you can get and make the most of it.


Utah has the best draw system. Everyone has a shot. The ONLY thing I would change in the utah draw, is I would take 25% of the preference tags (general and antlerless) and throw them in a random pool. That way, still everyone has a chance and not just those with a pile of points.

And your statement of getting impossible to have general deer tags is also not correct. You could hunt deer every year if you wanted. It won’t be you preferred season or unit. But you can do it.

General elk tags have reduced this year in demand. You can still buy one.
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I read this from all the old guys.

So, here's what we should do. Old guys can have a open bull unit draw, some antlerless hunts, and if they draw any weapon deer, they can hunt all seasons, we will end youth ones

In exchange, the youth and everyone else gets equal opportunity at premium hunts, no points.

Older guys are simply full of chit.

We hunted deer state wide, 3 weapons, Nov muzzy hunt, no otc elk draw or caps.

I get "I deserve it because I say so", but anything g else is bullshit, controlled by gray hairs, to favor gray hairs, without any say by those it affects. Not a single teenager on RAC, or WB, so it's not surprising, the outcome.

Yeah, my boys will GLADLY give up a draw for a Uintas open bull, in favor of an equal chance at the SJ, or Boulder.
 
Being able to predict when you will draw a tag is the only reason a hunter should want a point system. Everything else about point systems are negative for hunters. State departments have figured out how to generate extra $$ from hunters with point systems. It isn't the direction I want to see it going but hunting is becoming much more of a rich mans sport.

I would gladly give up all my points in AZ, NV, UT, CO,
WY and MT for a random draw like Idaho or New Mexico. Point systems are like socialism, you have to look at the long term consequences of both to see the problem. I've been against point systems on MM for 20 years, it has been interesting to see more and more hunters "see the light" when it comes to point systems.

I would agree that the real problem is the supply is low for demand. There are no easy solutions but we shouldn't preserve opportunities to hunt for those with $$ at the expense of middle class working men and young men that haven't had time to build wealth or points.
 
Thill said:
Only 10% go to the max holders the other 10% is goes to the random draw.
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Are you saying you would rather see a 90/10. The way AZ's draw is now for the premium hunts It's more like 15/5. Residents get 15% in the max pool and NR get their 5%. AZ rules say NR can get up to 10% but they don't have to get 10% but all one has to do is look at the bonus reports every year and see that NR's always get the 10% cap that's possible for them to get. As an AZ resident that was born and raised in AZ and has been hunting this state for 42 years I like AZ's system.
 
BrianID said:
would agree that the real problem is the supply is low for demand
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No, the real problem is perspective. People think they’re owed these tags opposed to the reality of them being a bonus. That of course is due to supply and demand. So because of that reality you cannot be “owed” anything other then you can hunt general seasons. Anything over and above that should be considered gravy or good luck or whatever you want to call it. I’ve drawn a few decent tags and it was great. Not once have I sat and pouted when I got the “ not selected” notification. I just put on my big boy pants and went and killed something anyway.

Bunch a snowflakes that think everyone deserves a participation trophy is all I see when I hear the bitching
 
JPickett said:
No, the real problem is perspective. People think they’re owed these tags opposed to the reality of them being a bonus. That of course is due to supply and demand. So because of that reality you cannot be “owed” anything other then you can hunt general seasons. Anything over and above that should be considered gravy or good luck or whatever you want to call it. I’ve drawn a few decent tags and it was great. Not once have I sat and pouted when I got the “ not selected” notification. I just put on my big boy pants and went and killed something anyway.

Bunch a snowflakes that think everyone deserves a participation trophy is all I see when I hear the bitching
Click to expand...

My argument is the demand vs supply for tags has become worse. If we could increase supply, then we all win. That isn't easy to do but it has been done.

I completely agree, none of us are owed anything.
 
JPickett said:
And always the ones bitching about “the herds” :ROFLMAO:

FYI I’m probably right on hitting the down slope of “older guys” but I’ll call BS when I see it
Click to expand...

I'm 49, so I'm with you.

But at my age I've been around long enough to remember pre points, and the bullshit they used to push them through
 
LOL, There’s only like 200 threads on this topic at OYOA the last ten years. Was wondering when I’d see one here. But what they all have in common is screwing high point holders ?. No posts suggesting eliminating outfitter welfare tags, dad/youth welfare tags, landowner welfare tags, governors welfare tags, auction welfare tags, wealth welfare tags, outfitter wilderness regs to increase supply. This despite this welfare supply is heavily loaded with the most premium quality tags. Fact is it’s just easier for haters to pick out the easy target that legislatures have successfully been screwing for years. ?

Want to really increase supply rather than wave a stick? Convince Xi Jinping to establish a department of wildlife and restore deer/elk/sheep to the vast expanses of incredible habitat devoid of game in China, namely Sichuan where wife & I have a 2nd home. You would have to drive the basin to truly get a concept of the potential here alone. And airline prices dirt cheap $540 round trip Chicago-Chengdu before Covid. Now THAT is increasing supply way beyond your wildest dreams. Archery only of course. If you think this is an unrealistic approach, I suggest you would be wrong. In fact, based on the history of Industrial Revolution/NAMWC in the US, this is in fact inevitable.

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Abundant browse, crops, water & cover everywhere. No game.

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JPickett said:
If you’re talking about price/value no. But as a metric of availability there’s not really a better term
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Yes there is and it's not that. There is zero relationship between commodity availability (tags) and people wanting them. The tag numbers are what they are regardless of who or how many want them.

Don't confuse tag availability with utility...
 
Why would anybody own a home in a place void of game? Your right about the point haters tho. Haters gonna hate.
 
Don’t turn into homer getting hung up on punctuation. Everyone knows what the intent of the term is in this discussion
 
hossblur said:
I read this from all the old guys.

So, here's what we should do. Old guys can have a open bull unit draw, some antlerless hunts, and if they draw any weapon deer, they can hunt all seasons, we will end youth ones

In exchange, the youth and everyone else gets equal opportunity at premium hunts, no points.

Older guys are simply full of chit.

We hunted deer state wide, 3 weapons, Nov muzzy hunt, no otc elk draw or caps.

I get "I deserve it because I say so", but anything g else is bullshit, controlled by gray hairs, to favor gray hairs, without any say by those it affects. Not a single teenager on RAC, or WB, so it's not surprising, the outcome.

Yeah, my boys will GLADLY give up a draw for a Uintas open bull, in favor of an equal chance at the SJ, or Boulder.
Click to expand...
Boomers have all the points…..as it should be. The World is our ashtray…… :cool:
 
Moe said:
Why would anybody own a home in a place void of game? Your right about the point haters tho. Haters gonna hate.
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Lol, Wasn't my choice. I married into it. But it's been great. I get a 3-4 month free hall pass Sept/Oct/Nov every year. Wife goes to Sichuan home while I stay in US home. Pre-negotiated for hunting seasons. Both homes are paid off. I'm only at China home 3 weeks/year at Spring Festival time February. Going on tenth year loving this setup. :giggle:
 
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JPickett,

Stupid avatar, image & solution all wrapped up in one. A veritable home run. Carry on waving your high point holder stick & beating war drum. ?
 
huntazido said:
sorry but it is 80/20. This is from the AZGFD portal:

Draw Process - Arizona Game & Fish Department

How Does the Big Game Draw Work? There are three phases to the Big Game Drawing – the bonus point pass, the first-second choice pass, and the third-fourth-fifth choice pass. … Continued
www.azgfd.com www.azgfd.com
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NR caps are 10% on the 1st pass - the other 10% goes into the random. The NR with the most points are only guaranteed the 10% of the NR tags.
 
AZ71 said:
Are you saying you would rather see a 90/10. The way AZ's draw is now for the premium hunts It's more like 15/5. Residents get 15% in the max pool and NR get their 5%. AZ rules say NR can get up to 10% but they don't have to get 10% but all one has to do is look at the bonus reports every year and see that NR's always get the 10% cap that's possible for them to get. As an AZ resident that was born and raised in AZ and has been hunting this state for 42 years I like AZ's system.
Click to expand...
I am not saying that at all. They changed the system several years ago, when I was statistically in the hunt to draw the tag I wanted and now several years later I am still chasing the same tag and out $160 each year to chase the tag. Again if they don't change the system or decrease the tags, I will draw the tag in the next 1-4 years.

I used to live in AZ and now live in CO. I don't like preference point systems and don't like the fees NR are changed for preference points.

Like I said early - if the cost of obtaining a preference point was minimal I would have no problem with it.

If AZ wanted to refund my license fees for acquiring the preference points- I would gladly take the money and stop applying. I gave up a **** pot of sheep/moose points in WY after they bumped the fees. I walked away from dozen plus points in UT because of increased fees.

NR get screwed and now your seeing CO join this **** show. $700 for a NR to have chance to shoot a cow elk-ouch!
 
In Utah, the hunt I am targeting with my 27 deer points has at least 12 welfare tags (probably more) to the single (1) NR preference tag. Yet the high point haters focus their war drums on that lone tag. ? Go figure.
 
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Thill said:
NR caps are 10% on the 1st pass - the other 10% goes into the random. The NR with the most points are only guaranteed the 10% of the NR tags.
Click to expand...
NR are 10% total, before AZ changed the allocation the 10% cap was maxed out in the bonus pass, to keep NR applying AZ changed the percentage to the new 5% in the bonus pass and the up to 5% for the random portion.
 
Zim said:
In Utah, the hunt I am targeting with my 27 deer points has at least 12 welfare tags (probably more) to the single (1) NR preference tag. Yet the high point haters focus their war drums on that lone tag. ? Go figure.
Click to expand...
Another “investor “ :rolleyes:.

How much you guys wann bet we could search his comments on here and find all sorts a “ future of hunting” type concerns? Guess we’ll worry about those behind us only after we get ours. That’ll work
 

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