The Force Awakens...

[Vanilla]

In 2008, the Utah Supreme Court ruled unanimously 5-0 that the use of public waters flowing over private lands could not be prohibited. In 2009, a legislator from Corrine named Ben Ferry (who lost his seat in the next election due to this single issue) crafted a bill to flip that judicial decision on its head.

A small group of fly fishermen and a couple duck hunters got together and formed a grass roots movement called the "Utah Water Guardians," and used an online fly fishing forum to inspire the troops to get involved. The response was insane! Hundreds, if not thousands of posts and threads on this forum happened. Ferry's bill was defeated, and a showdown of competing bills in 2010 was set up. Eventually the public lost to powerful special interests that were well-funded and well-connected. But it was not without a major fight. A fight that not many have witnessed, even long time legislators. Some that were there in the legislature at the time still speak about "the stream access wars" and warn junior legislators not to mess with the fly fishermen. Since the legislative process failed the majority, the Utah Stream Access Coalition was formed, and multiple lawsuits have been filed. USAC has been successful getting a portion of the Weber River termed 'navigable,' meaning no private party can own the stream bed. USAC also got a district court ruling finding HB 141 unconstitutional. Both rulings have been appealed, but USAC is still fighting, and I believe will ultimately win.

Why do I give this history lesson? Well, the news story tonight was encouraging to me. I think the winds of change are on the horizon. I think it will finally get the word out, and regular, every day normal hunters will get pissed, just like the fly fishermen did. Only there are about 100 times more big game hunters than fly fishermen in this state.

Who is going to be big game's "Water Guardians?" Who is going to be big game hunters' "USAC?" There is momentum for change. I guarantee SFW and some in the DWR are very uncomfortable right now. Can you feel it?

Who is going to stand and say enough is enough, and it's time for change? Who is willing to head up to the Capitol with a sign and demand change? Who is going to contact their legislator and ask them to take action on this? Who is going to assemble all their neighbors and show up at the caucus to get a good old boy removed who is too connected to what is wrong with the system? Who is going to stick this out and not just forget about it next week?

There are changes to be made. There is a chance to do it. Can you feel it? The force...it calls to you.

 

[wileywapati]

Noel, Okerlund and McKell can only keep their fingers in the SFW dike for so long.

Call or email your legislators and simply ask them to take a look at the situation.

Tell them they aren't alone, that you would like answers.



"WE USED TO HUNT GAME TO
MANAGE, NOW WE MANAGE TO
HUNT"
Finn 2/14/16

 

[2lumpy]

I will, I just signed a nomination petition to re-elect Senator Okerlund. Hundreds of sportsmen here in So. Central Utah love the guy and all he's done for wildlife and conservation.

DC

 

[Vanilla]

Lumpy,

You and SFW leadership bank on hunter apathy to exist in the world they are used to living right now. Whether that will change is still to be determined. But it's clear you are feeling the heat even today.

An awakening has taken place before. It can happen again. If it happens on this issue, it will be swift and fast. Like I said, there are a awful lot more big game hunters than fly fishermen. If they wake and assemble, there will be change.

 

[2lumpy]

Oh ya, I recently signed another one. Great guy too, your going to really, really like him.

As you say:

"Who is going to assemble all their neighbors and show up at the caucus to get a good old boy removed who is too connected to what is wrong with the system?"

We certainly will, you can bet your elk call, we will.

It darn good to have a well organized political machine, makes a big difference come election time, just like you said. Get those folks out to those caucus meetings. It is after all, the system, it's supposed to work the way it works. Designed that way. You like it, so do I.

DC

 

[Vanilla]

Yep...feeling the heat. I like that you are worried. If SFW loyalists are getting worried, imagine how some in the DWR and Wildlife Board are feeling right now?

That is where heads need to roll. And I'm guessing there are some that are worried on a much different level than lumpy. Their worry might just bring a little change on its own.

 

[2lumpy]

I haven't noticed the empathy your referring to. Course we travel in different circles. I go to places where thousands of hunters are fully engaged. It very refreshing to see so many that are so involved. (those kool aid drinkers ;-) .

I guess it a glass half empty/half full situation.....

All the best,

DC

 

[Birdman]

Lumpy, they would if they could but they can't. They talk but do not walk. They want change, but do not get involved. They want someone else to do it for them. Called lazy. Don't apply for the racs but complain when things don't go their way. They really don't want change but to just #####.

 

[Vanilla]

>Lumpy, they would if they could
>but they can't.
>They talk but do not
>walk. They want change,
>but do not get involved.
> They want someone else
>to do it for them.
> Called lazy. Don't
>apply for the racs but
>complain when things don't go
>their way. They really
>don't want change but to
>just #####.


That's what Ben Ferry thought too. Careful what you wish for there...

 

[Stonefly]

Deloss, Im NOT trying to give you a hard time, a while back before the division hadn't figured out how to award the "contract" to sfw. It was hard to find a post from any of you guys. As soon as your organisation had the info about the "contract" there was post after post for sfw people, A lot from you, i thought your "chest pounding" was really beneath you, after our communication about Deer Hunting ideas. I guess i read you wrong, and i honestly feel a bit bad about it. What I would like to know is.., If there is wrong doing PROVED and OPENLY SEEN . how will you take it, Will it effect your posts on MM ? I dont think others from sfw would change there opinion if Don told them the space ship is on the way....now drink the green koolaid. But i think you might be different,,???

 

[2lumpy]

Well.........they wouldn't have to be very worried to be more worried than me. But I'm sure they're all about to wet their britches. Sure seem twitchy any time I'm around any of them.

Didn't someone say, tonight that, that Expo thingy got signed for 5/10 years, just last week? Running scared all right, like you say! Wonder if Mr. Dabackus was checking into that and if he advised them to , "hold off"? Mmmmmm, didn't someone say he's on the Executive Appropriations Committee too? He must be very concerned, don't you think.

DC

 

[2lumpy]

Your right SF, I too understood you to be a different person than I now suspect you are.

These MM conversations open a lot of kimonos, don't they.

I felt a responsibility to be open to input from every one during the Five Year Mule Deer Committee period. I believe I was.

What you don't know and apparently didn't read between the lines in my remarks, made here on MM, from time to time are these. I got no respect and no support from any of SFW's representatives that sat on that committee, in my opinion, they treated me the same as those that represented the UWC, the CWMU reps, the State reps. the Wildlife Board Rep, the DWR, the RMEF, and the MDF. Ben Lowder, from the Utah Archers group gave me more support and more consideration that any of the other 15 people on the Committee put together. Outside of allowing me all the time I needed to make my arguments, I got zero from SFW or any of the rest of them. I've expressed on MM, numerous times, that SFW has capitulated and pandered to you guys every since 2012 when they caved into to the boy on the back of the bus and his friends from what was UWC. I've had very heated words over SFW's current "timid attitude" toward what I believe are inequitable treatment of mule deer and Utah sportsmen. Trust me, I am not on some of SFW's leadership's "Christmas Card List", others seem to tolerate me, a few have become very good friends.

I never posted a note on MM from June of 2015, until sometime in January 2016, about SFW, when heartshot went off on calling in the Feds from San Fran. At that point I'd listened to enough of your Bull Sh!t. You guys have been puking your guts out for months, it's time you got a little back of what you've been giving. Accusation after accusation. No proof. Just repeating hearsay and innuendo. I believe RMEF and the boy on the bus are trying to settle old scores and none of this has a dang thing to do with conservation, transparency and accountability, and those that aren't directly involved are just internet drive-bys, that go from internet forum to internet forum and pop a cap in somebody's azz because they get a kick out of it and they are doing it with impunity.

Why do I support SFW? Because I believe in their mission and I believe they are committed to public land hunters, both rich and poor, without discrimination. i believe they are, better than any other conservation/ wildlife/hunting/fishing group and are trying harder to grow and preserve public hunting than any other group in America. I have upmost respect for Don Peay and his personal commitment to what I personally believe is critical in your and my life style.

I like the concept of "using" a small % of big game to generate revenue for more big game animals. It makes sense to me.

I've had friends and business associates that have made mistakes, yes, they knew they we're doing illegal things. They are no longer friends or associates. I will not tolerate bad behavior, we no longer associate. Yes, some of them did jail time. If you or any body else proves SFW, as an org.has knowingly violated any laws, I'm done with SFW. So far it's all personal vendettas and disagreements of philosophy and procedure and nothing more, but you guys keep promising, so I'm saying, after staying out of the fray for 6 months, fish or cut bait! "Ginning up" public mistrust and "creating" suspicion is a despicable way to live. If you got something, play the fricking card, but to just keep whining to mom until she gives in is what pussies do, not responsible adults.

And, you are right, you did read me wrong SF, I'm an ornery old son of a b!tch. You would not like me at all, if you knew me better!

All the best SF

DC

 

[YBO]

WOW! What a post. Lumpy if we go to war tomorrow I want you as my number one draft pick. Thanks for your time and effort.

 

[wileywapati]

Talk about making allegations.





"WE USED TO HUNT GAME TO
MANAGE, NOW WE MANAGE TO
HUNT"
Finn 2/14/16

 

[bowhunt]

I have had good conversation with 2 local Legislators, and have established an ongoing dialog with them.
They claim they are committed to look into this.

Keep the pressure on, keep calling and keep asking.

Vanilla, good post, you are correct, at some point we may need to organize more effectively, and lobby.

 

[Vanilla]

I want the state looked at more than SFW. Of course, if you get looked at closely, those who you are in bed with tend to get a look as well.

I'm not sure if SFW or their lobbying arm have broke any laws (my suspicions are irrelevant), but I'm almost certain the DWR and state have with this. This is what bothers me the most. SFW is just a byproduct of state corruption, IMO. So while SFW will get some heat over this, the changes have to be forced on the state. Of course, that will trickle down...and then we'll see who whines.

 

[BillyBoB]

I've already contacted Utah Legislators and got a quick response from one.
It's being worked on.
There will be serious explanations


Theodore Roosevelt's guidance concerning
conservation...
"The movement for the conservation of wildlife,
and the conservation of all our natural resources,
are essentially democratic in spirit,purpose and
method."

"We do not intend that our natural resources shall
be exploited by the few against the interests of the
majority. Our aim is to preserve our natural
resources for the public as a whole, for the
average man and the average woman who make
up the body of the American people."

"It is in our power...to preserve game..and to give
reasonable opportunities for the exercise of the
skill of the hunter,whether he is or is not a man of
means."

 

[Stonefly]

DC. being an ornery old son of a b!tch myself, I can understand your anger towards me, after all I am in opposition to your beliefs. You seem to lump everyone that doesn't take your "side" into one group. You refer to "YOU PEOPLE' constantly in your posts. Your right, Im in the group that grew up loving the outdoors and Hunting. Im in the group that want my children and Grandchildren to share my love of the outdoors and all it can bring to a person.So lump me in this group lumpy. Now, in your response to me, you complained, while on the MDC you got no respect from sfw. I understand you said this to show, You weren't in sfw back pocket, and werent ther as a plant. I wouldnt let it bother you, As one old sun of a b!tch to another I'd like to tell you that for me,(you can group me with others if it makes you feel better). RESPECT is earned NOT given. After our talk about plans for Mule Deer, strangely I found some for you. And again as an old S.O.B myself. I can tell you RESPECT can be lost,Your a good example of that to me. Now I see you in a totally different light than before. Its really sad once I would have bet we could be friends. Friends with different views, but friends, Like the way I feel about Jon Larsen and others within sfw. It seems I have an ability you lack,I can agree to disagree and still maintain a friendship,and respect a person. As I stated in my opening comment on this thread. I can understand the anger towards anyone opposing you. I choose not to let opposition lead me to dislike and anger..
You said you like the idea of using a small portion of the funds for wildlife. Here we are in opposition again. I would like to see a LARGE portion of the funds go to Wildlife.I would like transparency,I would like Everyone that have rules to follow,. To abide by them.(yes that was directed at the former sfw people who now are sadly in positions within the DWR. and not directly at sfw. I have as many issues with the DWR or more than with sfw.
You have said MANY times that if "we" dont like it "we" should change it,. Start a new org. vote ect. You have also said you, in not so many words. That you disagree with some sfw idea's. and your not on the Christmas card list. Can you give us examples of what you disagreed with and how you rectified this,or are working to do so. You know my issues with sfw. Lets hear yours.
You said that you have had Friends that have,.. lets say had bad behavior, and that you wont tolerate it, they are no longer your associates.I am curios what in your eyes equals "bad behavior. To commit "bad behavior" Does one need to break rules or laws and get caught, or if they break rules and admit it,is it different. Would voting to reach the required Forum, with admitted conflicts of interest, be bad behavior.There is a rule against it. Or is there a difference when your interests are served. Please explain. You also made the comment about respecting DP, for all the good he has done. To bad you didn't know him back in the early days like I did. When all he could think of were using Elk on the Book Cliffs... and finding ways to line his pockets IMO of course.
You are right on a couple things, I agree with you that you are a son of a b!tch, as Im sure you agree that I am too, for the same reasons or different, no matter,I just agree.
I think we may both be wrong about Friendship tho, While writing this I have a feeling that If we got to know one and other we would most likely become Friends. Agreeing to disagree,but friends.

 

[2lumpy]

Nope, we wouldn't have become friends. I can't stand folks like you SF.

My definition of bad behavior is mine, period. Yours is yours. Happy to leave you to it.

What you or anyone thinks of me and whether I've earned respect or get respect, again, don't care in the least. I only care about outcomes.

If I have to be the only one in the room that "holds the line" I've never backed off the line, regardless of who or how many are opposed to what I believe. Like someone else we all hear from regularly.

Your assessment of me is pretty much perfect SF, course I kind of gave you the ole green light to come to that opinion, didn't I.

I didn't get on MM to make friends. I don't hold back my opinions for fear of loosing respect or popularity. No SF, you definitely wouldn't like me, if you knew me better.

DC

 

[Stonefly]

Wrong again DC your response had me almost rolling on the floor, I definitely liked it. Hate to tell you how wrong you are AGAIN..must be kinda sad for you. But I like you more....... Lets be friends Deloss.... Now it time for you to rip on me .. and "my type folks"..ready aim FIRE!!!