Turning Tag Back in ? based on New Rule

[nripepi]

Has anyone ran across trying to turn only one tag back in with a group application based on the new rules?

It looks like the spirit of the new rule is to keep grandma from applying and helping you get a tag each year (I am all for this). The problem I see is that if you did not gain any advantage by being in a group (you have the same or less points than anyone else in the group) then I feel that you are being unfairly singled out for being in a group. You should have just applied individually for the tag as you could then turn in your tag if needed. I am in this boat and can't turn back in my tag according to the Division.

I would be fine with a rule not allowing you to turn tags back in like in Wyoming, but in this case I deem the treatment unfair btwn a group and individual. Our odds could actually be lower when applying as a group app.

Anyways, I wanted to make people aware of this as I think the rule should be changed in the future. As I am a non-resident I will not be able to make any of the RAC meetings, hopefully someone can bring it up for me!

Thanks.

Nino

Here is the rule:

"If you obtain a permit through a group application?and then you decide to surrender it?you will not have your bonus points reinstated or earn a new point unless your entire group meets
the following conditions:
?All group members must surrender their
permits
?Permit surrenders must occur more than 30
days before the start of the season

 

[BigMedicine]

Risk you take when you apply as a group. Too bad though, you might call DWR and see if they will work with you. If you have a medical issue they can sometimes work something out.

 

[nripepi]

No medical issue here, I just don't think there should be that risk. They could reword the rules so if you had the same or less points you can turn your tag back in. Maybe I am off base with regards to my understanding of the rule.

Nino

 

[AndymanSavage]

Sorry, I like it. It addressed a huge loophole. Just a risk if applying as a group.



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http://andymansavage.blogspot.com/

 

[elkhunterUT]

This rule is WAY overdue in my opinion. Sorry it hoses you in your current situation, but this should have been in place a long time ago.

 

[nripepi]

I like the spirit of the rule where there is an advantage gained, basically the Grandma rule, and I don't think that should be removed at all. I just think if there was zero advantage gained then you should be treated just like an individual is treated. Why is it different? I think they messed up, but as I said, I could be wrong.

 

[swbuckmaster]

Love this rule! Dont want to see it go away! To many tards abused it in the past.

 

[Packout]

It took me about 3 years to finally get that rule passed. So I guess you could say I like it. To be honest, what you are saying wouldn't hurt anyone, but it just muddies the waters. This rule hurts me just that same as others, but I look at the future of our kids and this loophole was hurting more than the few it was helping.

 

[nripepi]

I love the spirit of the rule and I applaud you for getting it passed, thank you. During the process did you or others contemplate the situation I described above? It is going to come up again I'm sure.

Here is how other states handle this situation:

1. Colorado - you go by the lowest number of points, so there can be no advantage. The whole group does not have to turn their tags in together if a refund or points are wanted.

2. Wyoming - you average your points like in Utah and there is no option for turning in your tags for refunds or points.

It seems to me like Utah wanted you to be able to average your points, but not gain an unfair advantage by the person with the most points turning in their tag and repeatedly going through the same loop (CO and WY do this, just differently). That is great and the rule was successful in doing just that! Utah allows you to turn in tags for refunds and for points, it is spelled out in a separate rule. I feel it is somewhat contradicted in this new rule when an advantage was not gained. It is not fair treatment where one person can get a refund and another who did not get an advantage in the draw can not. Utah should either have gone the WY route or CO route or if it were me, I would have reworded it to say the following:

"If you obtain a permit through a group application?and then you decide to surrender it?you will not have your bonus points reinstated or earn a new point unless your individual application did not give the group an advantage in the draw (e.g. your bonus points are equal to or less than every other person in the group)

or your entire group meets the following conditions:

?All group members must surrender their
permits
?Permit surrenders must occur more than 30
days before the start of the season

I hope I am not beating a dead horse here, I am just curious if it was contemplated to do something differently.

Thanks again for getting this passed, great job!

Nino

 

[Packout]

I should clarify that I did not write the current rule, just talked with the right people to get something changed. You make a valid point concerning those who did not carry others to tags, but it did come up in the public process and those who made the decisions felt that loopholes just caused more problems.

 

[nripepi]

Sounds good, but I'm not sure if I would consider them loopholes per se.

Thanks for the comments and pushing the bill.

Nino

 

[grizzly]

I get what you are saying, but in the spirit of simple-mindedness (which is important) I like it the way it is (we can't possibly cover every foreseeable contingency, it would be far too complex).

I am against using Grandma to draw tags, which was all too prevelant. Anybody else notice the huge numbers of wives/mothers drawing tags the last few years since they were the ones sitting on all the points up til now?

Sorry, Nino, I think they should leave the rule the way it is. Good luck on your hunts though.

Grizzly

 

[oilcan]

I agree keep it the way it is.
I think Utah is very generous with there draw system if you return the tag you gain a point for that year.In Colorado you can return the tag but you don't get a point for that year so you fall one point behind.

 

[nripepi]

I understand the simplicity reasoning, but I don't feel that my proposed rule is that hard to comprehend (I do agree that it would not be as simple). What is kind of difficult to comprehend is when there are 2 rules in the regulations that contradict each other (that is how it is now). One says you can turn your tag back in and pay $25 and get an extra point and another says you can do that unless you are in a group, then the group has to all turn their tags back in. Grandma should go to jail if she turns her tag back in more than once...but if Grandma wants to hunt and her grandson wants to turn in his tag because he has a work commitment, he should be able to turn his tag in.

The rule is definitely better than it was and I would not be opposed at all if no one could turn in their tag either, I'd be OK with that option.

 

[Elkhunter96]

They could make it simplier, no tags can be turned back in. I am pretty sure there are plenty of states that consider the tags non-refundable and not available to be returned.

 

[RisingSun]

With regards to not gaining an advantage: If you apply as a group and they average up the points, say 4 for simplicity, do they put four chances for each person in the group (ie: 4 people in the group with 4 average points equals 16 chances) or do they put 4 chances for the whole group in the draw? In which case what happens when a group of 4 are drawn at the end of the draw where there is only 1 tag left in the unit?

Please excuse my ignorance...

 

[nripepi]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-13-11 AT 04:47PM (MST)[p]My understanding is that the group would get 4 chances in your scenario based on the points they have (so the same odds of an individual application if that person had 4 points), but in Utah if there are not enough tags left then the group gets passed over (would it be fair to give a group of 4, 4 tags on the Henry's?). So in essence, the odds of a group drawing are lower than the odds of an individual drawing and that difference is dependent on how many tags are given out on a particular hunt, some hunts it is a really big deal, but others it is very small.

 

[RisingSun]

In that case, while I applaud your efforts to go hunting as a group or not at all I have to think that you assumed the risk. While I'm sorry that you lose your points I have to agree that the rule is much better in place than not. I know of too many instances of party filling on group tags and then turning in "grandma's" tag. If there is any chance that you might not be able to attend the hunt I would say don't put in on a group. It's really a no-win, but the rule is for the best.

 

[antlerrick]

+1....
That would also eliminate the guys who draw with a good number or points, scout the unit, and then decided it is not the BEST year to have a permit, and then turn it back knowing they will draw again right away.
I think the only thing that should be an issue would be a medical condition that prevented the individual from being able to participate...but even that would have flaws as some people can talk their doctor into writing anything they need to gain an advantage..

 

[nripepi]

I have admitted defeat. If people can't understand my proposed rule, then perhaps it is too hard to understand.

I agree that you assume that risk, but when there are two rules in the regulations that contradict themselves and you only read one of them it is confusing as it is. As I have stated, I have zero problem if you are not allowed to turn in tags period, the risk then is clear. In the instance where you gave someone an advantage in the draw (Grandma's rule), you also should not have any chance to return your tag. I guess I am the only one who thinks my proposed rule is not confusing, so I will have to agree that it is better how it is now. The rule in the regulations needs amended then. Here is the rule I read and is the rule that had been in place for years:

Permit refunds and
exchanges
Utah Code ? 23-19-38 & Utah Admin. Rule R657-42
Refunds
Q?If I buy a license or permit, and then find
that I can't use it, can I get a refund?
A?In most cases you can't get a refund, but
there are some exceptions. The Division may provide a refund under the following circumstances:

You obtain a once-in-a-lifetime or limitedentry permit and then surrender it to the Division no less than 30 days before the
season-opening date. Under these circumstances, you will receive a refund of the permit fee?minus a $25 refund fee?and your bonus points will be reinstated.