been saying this for years i totally agree on this.
Good luck CD and glad you have taken a interest in this as it's very important to all of us. I also feel it's great that a course subject like this even came up this day in age. Ya never know man-you or another student might come up with a number of great solutions but one thing for sure that you will all have to face and fight out is-MONEY and lots of it. Hunting is so commercialized anymore that it's darn near impossible for the every day guy to go out and enjoy it. I don't think Bux n Dux wasn't trying to be negative towards your post but just the frustration we all at one time or more have been faced with for many years. And what he's trying to say is-wildlife boards not only don't listen sometimes to the general public hunters but also get sidetracked by money due to pressure they get from special interest groups and etc. I probably stepped out of line by writing for Bux but I don't think he meant any harm or was trying to be negative. Assuming you are getting your degree in Ag or Ag Econ or Wildlife Biology? We tried to get our 3 daughters to head in that direction but they all wound up teachers and coaches and we could not be more proud of them. Elkhunter made one heck of a point about rifle hunting during the rut and I completely agree with him but others may not. Rather that's part of the problem, trailcams (which I am shocked they upheld), predators, loss of habitat, increased population, climate change (as they call it) , or various other reasons--you're in for a challenge. Best wishes and I am sure you will do great. If you didn't care you wouldn't have posted.
That comment was sad, you think criticizing kids who care about wildlife management is going to help?
You are correct. My comment isn’t being negative towards the OP. It’s directed at the RAC and WB board.
We aren’t managing elk anymore. We are managing social feelings.
Vanilla
Yup we sure are.
Biologists have to manage both the social and biological components given all the variables involved (a finite resource in short supply with an ever growing demand). To not do so, would be negligent and ignorant.
Eliminating or drastically reducing private grazing on public lands and you can increase your numbers. People don’t understand that a private entity dictates how many naturally occurring wildlife can be living on our public lands.
C'mon Vanilla - you are being a bit obtuse here. You know as well as I do that you can maximize opportunity within the LE framework and that maximization benefits everyone, not just bowhunters.
Vanilla
I have been beating this drum for years - there is absolutely no good reason why this isn't in place already. Low hanging fruit that should be implemented without any question.
I will agree with you on this. That is why i stated in my previos post
That's where the Mid season hunt is right now
Yes there is 3 to be exact. it is a harder hunt because the spike hunters are in there pressuring the Elk.
You ask any biologist in this state and Elk we do not have a problem growing ..
There is an area I like to hunt that just a few years ago had 400 late season antlerless elk permits on that area. Last year they gave out 4 resident and 1 non resident for the same area. Explain this to me if growing elk isn't an issue.
Some of it is pressure, Most of it is that a bunch of bulls have already been killed during the archery, early AW and muzzy season.
They issued way too many Late season cow tags they got the quota wrong.
If public grazing got the axe, you could feed many more elk than we are currently
Yes a few bulls have been harvested
The previous years success rates play into this. If they don’t kill the cows off a unit they needed to the year before, they’ll add tags on the next year in an attempt to bring the numbers back down to what the almighty livestock association thinks is acceptable. If we get a bad winter and the elk winter on the highways, you can over kill a herd pretty quickly compared to a normal year
Sure, But is that going to happen?
First, there are way more people that hunt with a rifle than a bow. It's not even close. They should get a good chunk of the tags.
Holy shizz. lol
Your correct, they should get and they could have more if it was out of the rut .
HaHaHa you can't read. That's fine what did I say? with what weapon yeah that's what I thought.
If you had enough people understand who really dictates wildlife populations in our state and they voiced their opinion on it, then it very well could be a possibility. Unfortunately, most of the public doesn’t understand how things work. It’s year all the DWRs fault and all fingers are pointed at them, when in reality I can’t be further from the truth
More like managing rich rifle hunters entitlements to big bulls.
That all plays into the “feelings” being managed
Recognizing that people forget, I would be more lenient and just require that hunters can’t buy any licenses or permits until they submit their harvest report. It could be done at the license vendor or thorough the web portal immediately before next purchase, but it will be done. No penalties or mailings required. I feel like the DWR takes in more than enough fees to cover the cost of this.
I understand carrying capacity. My point is that you could put more branch antlered bulls on the landscape with a similar overall population size if you let the spikes have a chance to grow one or two more years. Reduce number of cows as needed, but we don’t need to keep a bunch of cows around so we can harvest 10,000 bulls every year (or whatever that number might be). I think many people would be super happy to take a branch antler bull, rather than wait 30 years for a dismal chance of taking a 380 bull with no broken tines that has 30 guides chasing it. We give up a lot potentially great opportunity trying to manage for $300,000 bulls. Just my opinion.
You are correct. Most don't understand that hunters as a whole don't understand that there is millions of dollars invested in multiple uses of our public lands by people who may or may not give $.02 if you or I can kill an elk. They are not only well financed but united in what they want to accomplish.
Why have cows just to make spikes? How many other states restrict most bull permits to spike only? Oh wait, Utah knows best. That’s why we have everyone is so happy and fully satisfied with our hunting opportunities in Utah. No one complaining about kids waiting 50 years to hunt mature bulls.
My original point was that you manage herd size within carry capacity by taking out cows, not spikes. We all know that hunting buck deer has no effect on population size, right? ?
Oregon has spike hunts. So do a couple other states if I’m not mistaken.
I’ve waited 23 years for a LE elk permit and now that I‘m finally close to drawing people want to eliminate the point system so everyone has “the same chance”? So “the kids” have a chance to hunt trophy bulls when they are 15? Where was my “same chance” over the last 23 years? Frankly it is in my best interest to leave everything just the way it is.
My answer to your last question is yes. That is exactly what a lot of people on this thread are saying. Eliminate the spike hunt and give more LE tags. Your bigger less desirable bulls will get shot and your carrying capacity is a a non issue. Think of all the bulls that would be coming up each year if those spikes aren’t shot their first year. Why shoot them as spikes when you can shoot them as 5-6 points?
The problem i see there is you'll lose even more "quality" overall.
Not sure what you mean by super generous, but I I think you could double or triple then number of LE tags, but need to wait a few years to let the spikes grow up. I think another problem is you end up with some old 5x5s that won’t get legal. I think this is why some states just require brow tines.
Most likely, yes.
Agreed but maybe there is room for a little of both. The majority of elk shot off the lower tier units are not any bigger than 5 points to 320 6 points.
This was exactly my point.
We have rags shot now on the spike units
I bet the vast majority of Utah hunters would be very happy to take a 280 bull on units that are relatively close to home and easy to access. What are the 15,000 hunters chasing on the Utah’s GS any-bull hunt (much of it on difficult wilderness), which sells out in 7 hours? If you haven’t killed a 280 bull, it’s pretty hard not to shoot when you have one in your scope. I can only believe that the people upset about the lack of 400 inch bulls are the outfitters, guides, nonresidents trying to get a bragging bull, and a minority of resident hunters that already killed 300 inch bulls. People on this form make fun of Colorado elk hunting, but they killed over 19,000 bulls last year, mostly OTC, where the majority of hunts have antler-point restrictions requiring 4 points or a brow tine on one antler. I realize that Utah has been producing more BC bulls, but I have to believe that Colorado produces way more six point bulls.
There were I believe at least three LE units that had restricted spike hunting in Utah in the last few years. Maybe you could find the data to support your claim?
it was few and far between for sure but now we have a herd. We didn’t before why stick with the spike thing let’s try something. On the north cache it used to be a really good unit no spike hunting was allowed then they opened it up to spikes didn’t take long for it to go down hill.
I don't trust people who can't count.
Haha how many LE elk points you got Niller? You need the rut, your gun, a guide, what else you worried about before they pull the rifle hunt out of the rut? Who wants their cake and to eat it too, oh that's right you.
I agree 100%, it's definitely much higher.
This is a great point. My thought would be to raise objectives on these units to meet that goal. We all know what units like the Wasatch and Manti were like 15 years ago before the plan forced the massive in reduction in numbers.
I remember an article in RMEf a number of years ago that showed the science behind shooting yearlings. It was based on the fact that the young had a much higher mortality rate. Targeting them allowed enough to make it through leaving the mature animals to grow and produce another batch or yearlings.
I am very interested to see if the spike hunt restrictions help the Book Cliffs because I would be interested to burn my point on Book Cliffs Multiseason permit if it bounces back. The fundamental problem is that UDWR does not have mandatory harvest reports so nobody really knows what is happening. I have not been able to find any information on how many archery tags they even sell, and t hey do keep track of where hunters are hunting. It is a black box.
As per a private conversation with Covy Jones off the record, he mentioned there is a mystery on the Book Cliffs that they haven't figured out.
Sorry I don’t understand what am not counting??
Wrong conversation sorry lol
Hahaha how having the rifle hunt in the rut impacts others, but you reference yourself 10+ different times in your post.
So help me understand how having the rifle elk hunt in the middle of the rut is a good thing? Please explain how archery hunters want our cake and to eat it too, is that not what rifle hunters already have?
I don’t completely trust harvest report information. I believe some people lie on those reports thinking they are gaming the system some how. What do you think?
I'm sure it happens, but I think most people are honest on them. I would take that risk over not doing anything at all, which is where we are at right now (With the exception of LE and OIL hunts).
Devil is in the details.
