Utah Muzzy Scope Controversy

Jake.
your right it is all we have.
How many people you know that has harvested and got surveyed and lied and said they didn't harvested?

Well I know quit a few this is there reasoning for doing it.

#1They will issue more tags next year.
#2They don't need to know where I hunt.
#3 It's none of there dam business.

There just plain not being truthful but I truly wonder how many do it.

I look at the offset in number of permits.Versus hunters afield and where talking almost 2,000 permits. 2,000 hunters stayed home yeah right.
I get called just about every year and have never once lied to them. I honestly cant say I have ever herd of someone doing it either.

People are stupid, #1 they don't issue tags based off of success rate, #2 you don't have to tell them where you hunt, just a general area a very general area at that. and #3 It actually is there damn business, it is literally there job to figure that stuff out and manage the hunts.

These are the same people that b!tch and moan about every little thing when it is clear they have absolutely no clue about how any of it works. People are idiots, just go read through the DWR posts on Facebook and you will get a clear picture of just how ignorant people really are.
 
For the sake of the question, here is a dope chart I made at the range for my 6.5 PRC.
It's a very small laminated cardstock on my cheek side of the stock.
There is no calculator or binder of paper, it's all pre done and tested.View attachment 82254
That's something, so when does the hunting part come into play of your shooting hobby???
 
Well!

Add Me to That List As Well!
I’ve hunt muzzy for a hell of a lot longer than that.
I Don't Have A Problem With Giving Up Some TECHNOLOGY/GADGETRY!

As Long As All Weapon Types Give Some Up!

And As Long As It's To Increase The Quality & Quantity Of Our Deer Herd!

Which This Is NOT!


I know.
We where fine before. So what the hell is the problem taking them back off? Honestly what is the problem 400 post later we still are bickering about something that happened only six years ago.
I’ve hunt muzzy for a hell of a lot longer than that.
 
I get called just about every year and have never once lied to them. I honestly cant say I have ever herd of someone doing it either.

People are stupid, #1 they don't issue tags based off of success rate, #2 you don't have to tell them where you hunt, just a general area a very general area at that. and #3 It actually is there damn business, it is literally there job to figure that stuff out and manage the hunts.

These are the same people that b!tch and moan about every little thing when it is clear they have absolutely no clue about how any of it works. People are idiots, just go read through the DWR posts on Facebook and you will get a clear picture of just how ignorant people really are.
jake I totally know what your talking about but it happens I just wonder how much.
 
Did We Ever Think Archery Equipment Would Be Killing Game Out Past a 100 Yards?

I Remember Getting My First Decent Rifle!

I Was Capable Of Maybe some 300-400 Yard Shots!

Now 1200-1500 Yard Shots With Rifles Is Standard Procedure For Some!
 
Holy hell really?
I’m looking at success rates it pretty dam clear which one is lower. If it was higher then I would stand behind you.

Because you did say not everyone is shooting out past 200 yard with a muzzleloader.
so what makes you think everyone that is bow hunting is shooting out past 80.

So by going 3 pin will do what? Other than make them even less successful.

So again how is muzzy hunter’s loosing more.
They are going to loose several hundred dollars in a scope they can no longer use on their muzzy. They are going to loose their confidence in making a clean shot past 100 yards. They're going to loose more wounded animals than before the change. That's a few things they are going to loose and for what? To make a few frustrated hunters that think this change will be a big game changer and suddenly big bucks will appear like never before. Well, it's not going to happen. If someone can't find a mature animal to hunt right now, these changes are not going to change that. The way we hunt is what needs to change. The trophies are still out there.
 
They are going to loose several hundred dollars in a scope they can no longer use on their muzzy. They are going to loose their confidence in making a clean shot past 100 yards. They're going to loose more wounded animals than before the change. That's a few things they are going to loose and for what? To make a few frustrated hunters that think this change will be a big game changer and suddenly big bucks will appear like never before. Well, it's not going to happen. If someone can't find a mature animal to hunt right now, these changes are not going to change that. The way we hunt is what needs to change. The trophies are still out there.
Sorry ridge Jake cleared it up for me I understand now.
 
Okay boys
What do we do.
Technology is by far a touchy subject it is very very clear that most hunters can’t hunt without it.

So I propose if your riding a atv or side x side your bow/gun/muzzleloader needs to be in a case at all time will your riding. No more having quick access to it.
 
Just Truthful Ridge!:D

I hope or you or anyone else knows that I don't take any of this back and forth personal. I think it's good for the WB to see as many options and opinions as possible before a decision is made. Any one of you are welcome at my campfire. We'll, except elkass, that dude is plain crazy. ?
 
I hope or you or anyone else knows that I don't take any of this back and forth personal. I think it's good for the WB to see as many options and opinions as possible before a decision is made. Any one of you are welcome at my campfire. We'll, except elkass, that dude is plain crazy. ?
I appreciate that same goes or you bud.

Yeah he is but MM just wouldn’t be the same without him.

Your right it is good that the WB see’s this if we had are deer numbers in check. We wouldn’t be here bickering.
I do know they are working hard trying to get them up.
Slam has been a big part of it too.
 
I did some research last night. This is muzzleloader.

In 2013
Permits issued was 15,694
Hunter afield was. 13,578
With 30.7% success

In 2014
Permits issued was 15,825
Hunter afield was. 13,502
With 31.1% success

In 2015
Permits issued was 16,149
Hunter afield was. 13,873
With 34.5% success

In 2016
Permits issued was 16,941
Hunter afield was. 14,561
With 39.3 % success

In 2017
Permits issued was 16,279
Hunter afield was. 14,218
With 33.5% success

In 2018
Permits issued was. 16,734
Hunter afield was. 14,134
With 37.5% success

In 2019
Permits issued was. 16,342
Hunter’s afield was. 13,840
With 27% success

In 2020
Permits issued was 14,712
Hunter’s afield was. 12,801
With 30.1. % success.

There is no data on 2021 but we all know there was less tags that year as well.

But it pretty obvious that there was a spike in success in 2016. This is when scopes where allowed.
Were they allowed in 2019 and 2020??
 
Well how do you figure muzzy hunter’s are loosing more.

There was 15,550 archery tags issued in 2020 for deer. 18.8 % success

There was 14,712 muzzy tags issued for deer in 2020. 30.1% success.

Before scopes where allowed

There was 17,026 archery tags issued for deer in 2015. With 23.9% success

There was 16,149 muzzy tags issued for deer in 2015. With 34.5% success


So tell me how muzzleloader are loosing more than archery hunters.
You tell Jake that “that data is not accurate at all” and then you just keep throwing it out there. It’s only accurate when it fits your narrative or what??
 
Just In:

They Wanna Start Cracking Down On Optics Of All Kinds Right After They Get Their Foot In The Door On Taking SmokePole Scopes!

All Your High Dollar Bino's/Spotters/RangeFinders/Electric GADGETRY are on the Line!

You Boys Have Laughed at My 1978 Bushnell Spotter For Years!

You Won't Be Laughing When You're Looking For a Pre-1980 Spotter Just to Be Legal in The Field!

Once Again:

CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR!
 
Okay boys
What do we do.
Technology is by far a touchy subject it is very very clear that most hunters can’t hunt without it.

So I propose if your riding a atv or side x side your bow/gun/muzzleloader needs to be in a case at all time will your riding. No more having quick access to it.
That’s what CO does. We have so many deer we have to import wolves to limit the harvest.
 
I hope or you or anyone else knows that I don't take any of this back and forth personal. I think it's good for the WB to see as many options and opinions as possible before a decision is made. Any one of you are welcome at my campfire. We'll, except elkass, that dude is plain crazy. ?
Even though I am now viewed as the bad guy here, I am with Ridge on this one.
Constructive banter is good and is definitely being watched, my campfire always has extra chairs and beers ?
 
I tell you what we did find out about technology.
It’s pretty dam obvious that technology has gotten way out of hand.

look at all the pushback on it.


EXACTLY

My Grandpa, and probably others owned 1 gun, so when my uncle turned 16, Grandpa would rent a rifle from the guard.


Now guys are crying about losing a scope.
 
Well!

Add Me to That List As Well!

I Don't Have A Problem With Giving Up Some TECHNOLOGY/GADGETRY!

As Long As All Weapon Types Give Some Up!

And As Long As It's To Increase The Quality & Quantity Of Our Deer Herd!

Which This Is NOT!


What if it just keeps it from decreasing?
 
Just In:

They Wanna Start Cracking Down On Optics Of All Kinds Right After They Get Their Foot In The Door On Taking SmokePole Scopes!

All Your High Dollar Bino's/Spotters/RangeFinders/Electric GADGETRY are on the Line!

You Boys Have Laughed at My 1978 Bushnell Spotter For Years!

You Won't Be Laughing When You're Looking For a Pre-1980 Spotter Just to Be Legal in The Field!

Once Again:

CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR!
Hand held Rangefinders were definitely brought up.
That was killed so fast by the other 14 members that he went and sat in foyer the rest of the night.

Kidding of course.....but no one is coming after your binos and spotters.
 
Now they are Limiting the x factor scope on the ML should they be looking at a x factor rifle scope and limiting that too. I know they wouldn't because the pushback would be huge.
 
This whole thing is going to end up being a huge bait-and-switch. First, an early muzzy season was created with numbers of tags that motivated people to take up muzzy hunting. These people, myself included, were after opportunity and had/have no interest in traditional muzzleloaders. Now, the movement is to start pushing things back toward a traditional equipment hunt. All this with no stated objective other than, "Preventing horrible future problems caused by emerging technology."

The ethics, standards, opinions, etc that we each hold are important, but when you start trying to create one-size-fits-all regulations it just becomes a situation where someone has to become the doormat. This is exacerbated when the 'recommendations' are made by at think tank of highly biased individuals. The proof of this is in the statement made by Slamdunk where he talks about the person questioning rangefinders being universally rejected by the rest of the group. Handheld rangefinders are probably the best way to limit ALL methods on an equal basis and ALL emerging technologies.

Volumes of micro-regulations serve to do nothing other than score points between opposing groups. Real change, using the hunter management method, comes through:

1. Season dates
2. Season length
3. Tag numbers
4. Hunter access

Everything else is just feel-good stuff for one faction and a poke in the eye to another. Then, the whole revenge game starts as illustrated by those infuriated when their trail cams and apple piles were taken away.


There's about a buck-fifty's worth of my two cents.------SS
 
This whole thing is going to end up being a huge bait-and-switch. First, an early muzzy season was created with numbers of tags that motivated people to take up muzzy hunting. These people, myself included, were after opportunity and had/have no interest in traditional muzzleloaders. Now, the movement is to start pushing things back toward a traditional equipment hunt. All this with no stated objective other than, "Preventing horrible future problems caused by emerging technology."

The ethics, standards, opinions, etc that we each hold are important, but when you start trying to create one-size-fits-all regulations it just becomes a situation where someone has to become the doormat. This is exacerbated when the 'recommendations' are made by at think tank of highly biased individuals. The proof of this is in the statement made by Slamdunk where he talks about the person questioning rangefinders being universally rejected by the rest of the group. Handheld rangefinders are probably the best way to limit ALL methods on an equal basis and ALL emerging technologies.

Volumes of micro-regulations serve to do nothing other than score points between opposing groups. Real change, using the hunter management method, comes through:

1. Season dates
2. Season length
3. Tag numbers
4. Hunter access

Everything else is just feel-good stuff for one faction and a poke in the eye to another. Then, the whole revenge game starts as illustrated by those infuriated when their trail cams and apple piles were taken away.


There's about a buck-fifty's worth of my two cents.------SS
1-4 are being addressed by other committees and the board
 
Okay boys
What do we do.
Technology is by far a touchy subject it is very very clear that most hunters can’t hunt without it.

So I propose if your riding a atv or side x side your bow/gun/muzzleloader needs to be in a case at all time will your riding. No more having quick access to it.
This law saves a lot of bucks in Colorado. I like it.
 
Scopes were never an issue before. Now suddenly they are, all at the same time UT went on this self righteous war path.

I love seeing a post like this. It wasn't until the last 5 years that variable scopes were allowed on muzzleloaders in Utah. That's probably why they "were never an issue before." That's a pretty classic comment right there. Gives me a good chuckle!

I haven't read most of the other 250+ posts on this thread, but Utah certainly isn't the only state that has or is proposing restrictions on muzzleloaders. There are states that would still be more restrictive for muzzleloaders than Utah, even if Utah were to ban variable powered scopes.
 
This law saves a lot of bucks in Colorado. I like it.
It would save a ton of bucks in a lot of the units that have a lot of roads.

I had a LE archery elk tag in 2016 in the books.
I remember running from Atchee ridge into Colorado and getting stopped because my bow wasn’t in a case he was good about it.

He told me the reason for it to give the elk and deer a chance.
Then I thought about it.
he was right.
The unit I hunt there is a lot of roads.
When I have brought this up to other hunters they all gave me pushback so I dropped it.
But this is something we need to enforce I think it would save a lot more deer and elk.
 
Sorry. I should have said, "in my experience, this law saves a lot of bucks in CO". To me, its kind of like why we dont hunt them at night. Give em a chance! is there any data on how many animals are taken after or before shooting hours ?
My comment about data was facetious because of of the criticism it is drawing here in Utah of not having data that clearly supports the objective.

I agree with you ?
 
Slam
Who do we talk to about all weapons must be in a case while hunting on a 4 wheeler or side x side.
I will be the bad guy.
I know this is a big problem and it will definitely save deer and elk.

I wish we could push it for vehicles as well but i don think we can do that.

You know how many bow hunters ride around in bed of trucks and rifle hunter and they are pretty dam successful.

Especially on north slope on the highway
 
Slam
Who do we talk to about all weapons must be in a case while hunting on a 4 wheeler or side x side.
I will be the bad guy.
I know this is a big problem and it will definitely save deer and elk.

I wish we could push it for vehicles as well but i don think we can do that.

You know how many bow hunters ride around in bed of trucks and rifle hunter and they are pretty dam successful.

Especially on north slope on the highway
One of the most effective way to hunt the Book Cliffs archery is to ride on the hood of a Wheeler, bow in hand, spot the buck, jump off the wheeler as it keeps on going and make your shot as the buck watches the wheeler go by. I have seen this tactic used several times out there. haha
 
Slam
Who do we talk to about all weapons must be in a case while hunting on a 4 wheeler or side x side.
I will be the bad guy.
I know this is a big problem and it will definitely save deer and elk.

I wish we could push it for vehicles as well but i don think we can do that.

You know how many bow hunters ride around in bed of trucks and rifle hunter and they are pretty dam successful.

Especially on north slope on the highway
I’ve seen them here with beds full of lawn chairs.

But to be fair to the road hunting archers, they at least get out to look for blood…….and recover their arrow. Can’t say that about the 500 yard ML crowd.
 
One of the most effective way to hunt the Book Cliffs archery is to ride on the hood of a Wheeler, bow in hand, spot the buck, jump off the wheeler as it keeps on going and make your shot as the buck watches the wheeler go by. I have seen this tactic used several times out there. haha
Works with a pickup too.
 
Slam
Who do we talk to about all weapons must be in a case while hunting on a 4 wheeler or side x side.
I will be the bad guy.
I know this is a big problem and it will definitely save deer and elk.

I wish we could push it for vehicles as well but i don think we can do that.

You know how many bow hunters ride around in bed of trucks and rifle hunter and they are pretty dam successful.

Especially on north slope on the highway
The dudes on the bowhunt with their couches in the back of trucks in full face paint crack me up the most - you really need that face paint to blend in to the back of your truck bed :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
 
Slam
Who do we talk to about all weapons must be in a case while hunting on a 4 wheeler or side x side.
I will be the bad guy.
I know this is a big problem and it will definitely save deer and elk.

I wish we could push it for vehicles as well but i don think we can do that.

You know how many bow hunters ride around in bed of trucks and rifle hunter and they are pretty dam successful.

Especially on north slope on the highway
This could be brought up at a RAC, and or to the WB.

I would suggest adding in the safety aspect of it, that might help.
 
I agree 100%, but you have missed the point made several times about "as per individual weapon"

The same dispute can be made about a 150 yard archery kill versus a muzzleloader.
150 is 150, but the difference is archery season and archery equipment were never intended to be a 100+ yard hunt.

You limit the one item that changes the weapons abilities and it becomes tamed.
I’d love to see the data of how many archers are making kills at 100+ yards. I would imagine the percentage of archers that are capable of making a 150 yard kill shot would be .01%. Is there any data that shows the archery hunt success rates dramatically increasing over the last 5 years? Personally I am supportive of a ban of electronic bow sights (garmin), and would be in favor of a archery proficiency test prior to purchasing an archery tag.
 
I’d love to see the data of how many archers are making kills at 100+ yards. I would imagine the percentage of archers that are capable of making a 150 yard kill shot would be .01%. Is there any data that shows the archery hunt success rates dramatically increasing over the last 5 years? Personally I am supportive of a ban of electronic bow sights (garmin), and would be in favor of a archery proficiency test prior to purchasing an archery tag.
There isn't any data on those claims, that's the whole gripe from both sides of this.

Same as there is no data supporting muzzleloaders hunters killing out past 300 yards, but we know there are.

They don't manufacture long range muzzleloaders and components just for fun ?‍♂️
 
Without my set up last year I may or may not have ever killed my buck with a muzzy. He may have survived a couple more weeks to have a rifle hunter shoot him. That rifle hunter would probably be me. It sounds like in the end, that is what is trying to be accomplished by letting a few more mature buck make it till rifle season.
 
I love seeing a post like this. It wasn't until the last 5 years that variable scopes were allowed on muzzleloaders in Utah. That's probably why they "were never an issue before." That's a pretty classic comment right there. Gives me a good chuckle!

I haven't read most of the other 250+ posts on this thread, but Utah certainly isn't the only state that has or is proposing restrictions on muzzleloaders. There are states that would still be more restrictive for muzzleloaders than Utah, even if Utah were to ban variable powered scopes.

:rolleyes:

Really...maybe you should go back and read the history for full context instead of cherry-picking as usual.

I don't know whether to laugh at your foolishness or shake my head in disbelief from your half-ass approach.

I don't know why I even wasted the time to respond...
 
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Without my set up last year I may or may not have ever killed my buck with a muzzy. He may have survived a couple more weeks to have a rifle hunter shoot him. That rifle hunter would probably be me. It sounds like in the end, that is what is trying to be accomplished by letting a few more mature buck make it till rifle season.
But that has been the scenario for decades, hasn't it?

Congratulations on your buck, he must have been a good one ?
 
:rolleyes:

Really...maybe you should go back and read the history for full context instead of cherry-picking as usual.

I don't know whether to laugh at your foolishness or shake my head in disbelief from your half-ass approach.

I don't know why I even wasted the time to respond...

Ooooh, big boy words! Did you even pound your chest when you hit "Post reply" on that one?

I'm super intimidated by your online toughness though. So well done.

Got anything to actually add to the conversation? Or are you just going to fly off the handle like a petulant child attacking other forum members like usual?
 
One of the most effective way to hunt the Book Cliffs archery is to ride on the hood of a Wheeler, bow in hand, spot the buck, jump off the wheeler as it keeps on going and make your shot as the buck watches the wheeler go by. I have seen this tactic used several times out there. haha
Yep, I've done it many times myself back when I archery hunted, it works great.

My suggestion on the safety issue was just to add a little protein to the suggestion.
 
Ooooh, big boy words! Did you even pound your chest when you hit "Post reply" on that one?

I'm super intimidated by your online toughness though. So well done.

Got anything to actually add to the conversation? Or are you just going to fly off the handle like a petulant child attacking other forum members like usual?
Careful, he’ll block you. Sensitive feller. :ROFLMAO:
 
Yep, I've done it many times myself back when I archery hunted, it works great.

My suggestion on the safety issue was just to add a little protein to the suggestion.
Are you assembling a safety committee now? How about we don't get too carried away with all this stuff? These conversations are getting out of little outta hand...

Here is a look at hunting in the year 2030 after much data-less deliberation from the Tech committee, Safety committee, and the Make Hunting Lame committee...

+ Must wear a helmet and seatbelt while hiking.
+ If rifle/muzzle hunting you have to have a little mud in your barrel or else it isn't "fair chase".
+ Bows must have no sights and arrows with a suction cup tip.
+ Must wear eye glasses that aren't your prescription. Again, fair chase. Put the hunt back into hunting.
+ Hair - Must have woke hair style to not offend the non hunters.

Deer herd status in 2030... still declining...


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I agree with most of what's been said on here. That being said as long as they allow it I will be using it and keep it in my arsenal, Just as all of you do. Utah DWR will Not do anything that takes away from there bottom line, they have proved that. In Utah its not about the Wildlife it never has been!!!! I find it amusing that all of you lifetime forum members get on here and complain about technology and permit numbers, when what you should be trying to sell to the WB/DWR is ways they can MAKE MORE $, while you hide your efforts of enhancing the wildlife in this state. Money is what drives the decision making in this state, so we have to adapt our way of thinking to that and then maybe we could make some headway on all of these issues that you lifetime MM members have been complaining about for the past 50 years.
 
New plan just in and I don’t think anyone will complain about taking their muzzy scope off:
Archery-use whatever you want.
Muzzy-no scopes.
LR Deer shooters-use whatever you want.

Season dates:
Muzzy first.
Archery second.
LR third.

Anyone agree!!
 
I agree with most of what's been said on here. That being said as long as they allow it I will be using it and keep it in my arsenal, Just as all of you do. Utah DWR will Not do anything that takes away from there bottom line, they have proved that. In Utah its not about the Wildlife it never has been!!!! I find it amusing that all of you lifetime forum members get on here and complain about technology and permit numbers, when what you should be trying to sell to the WB/DWR is ways they can MAKE MORE $, while you hide your efforts of enhancing the wildlife in this state. Money is what drives the decision making in this state, so we have to adapt our way of thinking to that and then maybe we could make some headway on all of these issues that you lifetime MM members have been complaining about for the past 50 years.
☝️100% Spot on
 
New plan just in and I don’t think anyone will complain about taking their muzzy scope off:
Archery-use whatever you want.
Muzzy-no scopes.
LR Deer shooters-use whatever you want.

Season dates:
Muzzy first.
Archery second.
LR third.

Anyone agree!!
Not me, it's never been about season dates, tag numbers or any other compromise. It's about taking something away that's hasn't been a problem, it's only a perceived problem by a few.
 
@MrShane
We are all arguing through literally hundreds of posts, 99% of which is about taking away a scope from the smallest group of hunters we have out of three.
And your suggesting taking an entire season away from the least successful group and putting them behind firearms?

SMH......?
 
But It's OK To Put a DE-F'N-MAGNIFYING Scope On a SmokePole & Lob LEAD?
Not in my mind.
No scopes at all on Muzzy hunts.
You are right elk 1x scopes do demagnify the target. And the crosshairs are too fat to do any good.
It seems these guys that think their eyes are bad and they need a 1x scope haven’t tried contacts lenses and shoot with a peep site.
But to each their own.
Who am I to judge!
 
To me…this is like banning the use of a Ferrari while rifle hunting (only on I-80 during rush hour)

Banning the use of Honda Ridgeline truck for archery hunting the salt flats…my condolences to all ridge-line owners, you should have gotten a pilot and just turned in your man card.

And last but not least, banning all wheeled vehicles for even thinking of muzzleloading. After all, the West was settled with horses and ithe Good Lord never intended for muzzleloaders to move more than about 20 MPH.

Just having a bit of fun. Sorry couldn’t resist.
 
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I doubt archers will want 2nd place.....
And muzzy guys don’t want to give when the Long Rangers don’t give.
If it was equal, it wouldn’t be a problem.
I should probably just look at this as a mixed blessing:
I hunt with a 1x4 on my Encore, I don’t want anything else other than a tag every year.
By having scopes removed off muzzy’s I guarantee people will drop out of the muzzy game.
This would open up opportunities for me, BUT, muzzy tags come out of the same pool as rifle tags.
Set muzzy tags apart from rifle tags so we end up with undersubscribed muzzy tags and let’s do it!!
 
Not me, it's never been about season dates, tag numbers or any other compromise. It's about taking something away that's hasn't been a problem, it's only a perceived problem by a few.
Ridge,
I’m only being a jokester because this whole thing has turned in to a joke.
I don’t even want to hunt in August, we muzzy guys have a great season at end of Sep.
But to even think removing greater than 1 power scopes from muzzys is a way to save top end bucks when Long Rangers only have to give up their laser guided missle systems makes us the laughing stock of this site.
 
And muzzy guys don’t want to give when the Long Rangers don’t give.
If it was equal, it wouldn’t be a problem.
I should probably just look at this as a mixed blessing:
I hunt with a 1x4 on my Encore, I don’t want anything else other than a tag every year.
By having scopes removed off muzzy’s I guarantee people will drop out of the muzzy game.
This would open up opportunities for me, BUT, muzzy tags come out of the same pool as rifle tags.
Set muzzy tags apart from rifle tags so we end up with undersubscribed muzzy tags and let’s do it!!
I’m pretty sure muzzy tags don’t come out of the same pool rifle tags do when it comes to deer. Now general elk is a different story, but deer have their own tags allocated to muzzleloader, just like archery. All separate pools.
 
One thing definitely rings loud and clear.
There certainly is a lot of unhappy muzzleloader hunters for something that "doesn't help" you be successful.

I will do my do diligence and take this all back to the committee.

Thank you all for the input
 
The scopes obviously help. Anybody that says otherwise is not being truthful with themselves. I also feel it makes for a more ethical shot. I have only used a scope once while muzzleloading. It was last year in NM and I thought is was a big help. However, still had tag soup so…
 
Oh, definitely not! They want to go first, have the rut, get their long season, and for dang sure keep the extended.

They will not want to go 2nd. They want it all!
All that hunting with a lot lower Success.

I talked to the DWR about the Extended Maybe you should. It's put into place for a reason and they can pull the plug anytime.

It's like your reason for rifle hunters having the RUT (Biologically) is why its there it’s for the health of the herd.

But guess what I talked to the biologist about the rifle rut hunt. It doesn't matter where the Early season Rifle hunt is, It would still do the same where ever it is.
 
One thing definitely rings loud and clear.
There certainly is a lot of unhappy muzzleloader hunters for something that "doesn't help" you be successful.

I will do my do diligence and take this all back to the committee.

Thank you all for the input
The survey and the RAC meetings will say it all.
The question is will they show up or just sit here and complain.
 
All that hunting with a lot lower Success.

I talked to the DWR about the Extended Maybe you should. It's put into place for a reason and they can pull the plug anytime.

It's like your reason for rifle hunters having the RUT (Biologically) is why its there it’s for the health of the herd.

But guess what I talked to the biologist about the rifle rut hunt. It doesn't matter where the Early season Rifle hunt is, It would still do the same where ever it is.
I've tried explaining that for a very long time but so many people refuse to look at it as a biological tool for management.

The only reason I personally bend on moving it is to increase opportunity on the lower success weapons and help point creep.
 
One thing definitely rings loud and clear.
There certainly is a lot of unhappy muzzleloader hunters for something that "doesn't help" you be successful.

I will do my do diligence and take this all back to the committee.

Thank you all for the input
Who says it doesn't help? Let's see this long list of guys saying it doesn't help. We've argued it does help. It helps keep a tighter group inside 200 yards and should reduce lost wounded animals. It helps with seeing what your shooting at in low light conditions. I believe it helps a lot more than it hurts. That is all I've been saying all along.
 
One thing definitely rings loud and clear.
There certainly is a lot of unhappy muzzleloader hunters for something that "doesn't help" you be successful.

I will do my do diligence and take this all back to the committee.

Thank you all for the input
Week argument! We know they help. As someone that hunts with all weapons I hope everyone comes out in opposition to this unless they agree to handicap all weapons equally.
 
No scope restrictions across the board?
we all know that there won't be any restrictions other than the internal rangefinding scopes for rifle hunters. which do nothing other than making people use a regular range finder and then manually dialing a scope. so not a real game changer.

If that is true, then you will have to limit permit numbers if you want to move the needle at all.
 
.....and extremely limited tags for General rifle hunters.
It's too bad that so many hunters want exactly the same thing as anti-hunters: less people hunting.

I will never support that notion unless it is shown biologically that hunting is impacting the herds ability to survive and continue. Biology actually shows the exact opposite, and we should probably be killing more male animals in most places, not less. But that would impact the precision "inches" game.

Oh well, I'll never convince that crowd that limiting fellow hunters is a bad idea. And I know they will never convince me it is a good idea. Stalemate.

Elkslayer, I know why the extended exists. If it was REALLY only about the biological and/or social need to remove those animals, there are more effective ways than with a bow an arrow. Can you imagine the outcry if you removed one tender archer's ability to have months on end to hunt? This is much more than just biology, but you already knew that.
 
Who says it doesn't help? Let's see this long list of guys saying it doesn't help. We've argued it does help. It helps keep a tighter group inside 200 yards and should reduce lost wounded animals. It helps with seeing what your shooting at in low light conditions. I believe it helps a lot more than it hurts. That is all I've been saying all along.

If you are going to use the old worn out 'wounding argument' then apply it to archery as well or better yet just drop that argument because it's dumb

Scoped muzzleloaders wound just the same when pushed beyond their effective range. Open sights muzzy's wound when pushed beyond their effective range--EVERY FLIPPIN WEAPON DOES so stop with the disingenuous argument

Just state you like your scopes because it makes it easier for you and extends your range--that's it--that is the argument for all tech--it makes it easier for all of us to kill animals at extended ranges... PERIOD, END OF SENTENCE

Judas...you got me all worked up now typing like elkass
 
Airborne is yelling at someone other than me! This is great.

(Sorry ridge…)

All technology exists to make some task more efficient or easier. Not just in the hunting world, but every single aspect of our lives. We don’t invent technology to make things more difficult. “I’m going to invent X so it will take me longer and require more effort to do Y.” That is not how human advancement works. We are not programmed that way.

All tech helps in hunting. We all know this. The question is what limits, if any, should we impose on ourselves in the hunting world? That becomes really subjective and there will no doubt be winners and losers, no matter what.
 
It's too bad that so many hunters want exactly the same thing as anti-hunters: less people hunting.

I will never support that notion unless it is shown biologically that hunting is impacting the herds ability to survive and continue. Biology actually shows the exact opposite, and we should probably be killing more male animals in most places, not less. But that would impact the precision "inches" game.

Oh well, I'll never convince that crowd that limiting fellow hunters is a bad idea. And I know they will never convince me it is a good idea. Stalemate.

Elkslayer, I know why the extended exists. If it was REALLY only about the biological and/or social need to remove those animals, there are more effective ways than with a bow an arrow. Can you imagine the outcry if you removed one tender archer's ability to have months on end to hunt? This is much more than just biology, but you already knew that.
I never said less hunters total.
 
What is your proposal on "equally handicap" for archery and rifle?
Go back to recurve and no rangefinders for rifle. The Rangefinder would be hard to enforce though. I'm sure rifle has the highest success rates across the board. Why are we trying to make it easier for them again?
 
It's too bad that so many hunters want exactly the same thing as anti-hunters: less people hunting.

I will never support that notion unless it is shown biologically that hunting is impacting the herds ability to survive and continue. Biology actually shows the exact opposite, and we should probably be killing more male animals in most places, not less. But that would impact the precision "inches" game.

Oh well, I'll never convince that crowd that limiting fellow hunters is a bad idea. And I know they will never convince me it is a good idea. Stalemate.

Elkslayer, I know why the extended exists. If it was REALLY only about the biological and/or social need to remove those animals, there are more effective ways than with a bow an arrow. Can you imagine the outcry if you removed one tender archer's ability to have months on end to hunt? This is much more than just biology, but you already knew that.
I think he's referring to Rifle tag numbers not overall Hunters
 
I can and will say unequivocally the present Utah muzzleloader season was added to the mules deer hunting regulation for one reason and one reason only, in the late 1970’s. That reason was to allow hunters to experience a “primitive muzzleloader” hunt, after every other hunter was finished hunting mule deer. Meaning the hunt was intended to allow a sportsman to hunt, “IF and only IF he to hunt with a “primitive muzzleloader” but “primative” was poorly defined because………….. at the time no one was expecting ANYBODY to reinvent the breechloading rifle, to improve the tool to hunt with.

It’s not unusual for humans to make advancements to tools, when they see an opportunity to improve their efficiency……. it is however, almost always true that we “never” take this human expectation into consideration when we put regulations in place, especially for a “first time regulation”. The standard answer from the regulation makers is; that’s not going to happen” when in fact advancements in tools is almost always a guarantee to happen.

At that time of inception “primitive” was defined as a breachloading, black powder, powder rifle.

Why?

Because the modern muzzleloader and modern propellants hadn’t been considered yet. Scopes were used on primitives muzzleloader but they were not typically used primitively and originally Utah mule deer hunters, who pressed for a annual Utah Muzzleloader deer hunt, never considered mounting a modern scope or a primitive scope, on their Hawken, CVA or Zouave replica muzzleloaders….. so it was not an issue until a older gentleman on the Wildlife Board by the name of Jerry Mason wanted a 1x scope approved because he couldn’t see open sights anymore. (Like most old folks).

What’s my point? Because I don’t care what they do………. But if you want to know the original intent, that was it.

If going back to the original intent is your goal, that was the original intent, but if the original intent “is no your intent”, then take up any fight, for any reason, you want because anything other than the original intent can be justified and regulated for….. in as much as the original Utah Muzzleloader hunt no longer exists and you’re are actually starting over, for different reasons, with different objectives and completely different exceptions. This should have been addresses in the 1980’s like some other States did. But folks in Utah did the “that will never happen” management strategy again, as they always have.)

If you want long range breachloaders, with 1000 yard scopes, or you don’t, it a new fight, for a new hunt, but it most certainly is not a Primative Muzzleloader hunt, in any why shape or form and in hasn’t been primitive but it’s intended definition, since the late 1980s.

With the deer herd the way it is, I don’t believe you can justify any mule deer hunting in Utah…….. other than to keep raising revenue for the Wildlife agency operating expense unless you believe we should be funding the management of our mule deer into another homing pigeon species.

And by the way……..you probably should stop saying there were no long range muzzleloaders with scopes in the 1830-40. Here’s some data that will provide a smattering of accuracy about those facts.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_rifle
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitworth_rifle

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescopic_sight#History
 
I think he's referring to Rifle tag numbers not overall Hunters

And what would vastly reducing tag numbers to the largest contingent of hunters out there do? Not everyone is going to go pick up a bow, even if archers are successful in eliminating all other types of hunting besides how they like to do it.
 
I’m not sure I would, if I were king and could unilaterally make that decision. These have only been labeled “problem” or “excess” deer because we’ve chosen to label them that way.

Assuming we are going to try to kill them, providing archery opportunities for this doesn’t bother. I’m fine with the extended, I’d also be fine if it went away. What bothers me is certain segments of the archery community complaining and then trying to have their cake and eat it too with regards to all the hunts.

I have very little doubt that a small minority of these bozos would end hunting fur everyone but themselves. They reveal themselves pretty quickly.

But if it was strictly biological, and the need was there, killing them with rifles or even muzzleloaders would be more efficient.
 
I’m not sure I would, if I were king and could unilaterally make that decision. These have only been labeled “problem” or “excess” deer because we’ve chosen to label them that way.

Assuming we are going to try to kill them, providing archery opportunities for this doesn’t bother. I’m fine with the extended, I’d also be fine if it went away. What bothers me is certain segments of the archery community complaining and then trying to have their cake and eat it too with regards to all the hunts.

I have very little doubt that a small minority of these bozos would end hunting fur everyone but themselves. They reveal themselves pretty quickly.

But if it was strictly biological, and the need was there, killing them with rifles or even muzzleloaders would be more efficient.
I'm probably wrong here, but I was always under the impression the Extended was archery because it takes place in urban sprawl areas with a lot of housing.

I used to hunt the Draper area of the Wasatch Front and the deer were literally in people's yards and or extremely close to houses.
High power rifles were just not an option, but deer needed to be managed.
 
It's OK Airborne!

They Can Hear Us!

But They Don't F'N Listen!



If you are going to use the old worn out 'wounding argument' then apply it to archery as well or better yet just drop that argument because it's dumb

Scoped muzzleloaders wound just the same when pushed beyond their effective range. Open sights muzzy's wound when pushed beyond their effective range--EVERY FLIPPIN WEAPON DOES so stop with the disingenuous argument

Just state you like your scopes because it makes it easier for you and extends your range--that's it--that is the argument for all tech--it makes it easier for all of us to kill animals at extended ranges... PERIOD, END OF SENTENCE

Judas...you got me all worked up now typing like elkass
 
I'm probably wrong here, but I was always under the impression the Extended was archery because it takes place in urban sprawl areas with a lot of housing.

I used to hunt the Draper area of the Wasatch Front and the deer were literally in people's yards and or extremely close to houses.
High power rifles were just not an option, but deer needed to be managed.

You are not incorrect for some areas. Other areas, a good chunk of the Front, in the extended area are the same places rifle hunters are hunting just a few weeks before.

So for some of the extended, you are absolutely correct. For some, not so much correct.
 
This state has always catered to the rifle hunters. I'm open to change, but archery has already been hammered, muzzy sounds like it's coming. Rifle.......is the cash cow
Hardly….
Extended archery hunts??
Unlimited archery elk tags??
Either sex archery??
Longer seasons??
Etc…Etc…

I think you have nothing to cry about big guy.
Go eat some more fudge and lick your Dorito fingers ?
 
Hardly….
Extended archery hunts??
Unlimited archery elk tags??
Either sex archery??
Longer seasons??
Etc…Etc…

I think you have nothing to cry about big guy.
Go eat some more fudge and lick your Dorito fingers ?
Please do a little research on what archery hunters have lost compared to rifle hunters in the last 20 years. You sound stupid.
 
Hardly….
Extended archery hunts??
Unlimited archery elk tags??
Either sex archery??
Longer seasons??
Etc…Etc…

I think you have nothing to cry about big guy.
Go eat some more fudge and lick your Dorito fingers ?
All that time hunting and they still have lower success rates.

So your point is what exactly?

Instead of being upset about sitting at home while there still hunting you probably should switch to archery.
 
If you are going to use the old worn out 'wounding argument' then apply it to archery as well or better yet just drop that argument because it's dumb

Scoped muzzleloaders wound just the same when pushed beyond their effective range. Open sights muzzy's wound when pushed beyond their effective range--EVERY FLIPPIN WEAPON DOES so stop with the disingenuous argument

Just state you like your scopes because it makes it easier for you and extends your range--that's it--that is the argument for all tech--it makes it easier for all of us to kill animals at extended ranges... PERIOD, END OF SENTENCE

Judas...you got me all worked up now typing like elkass
Easier to keep a tighter group past 150 yards? Absolutely! To extend my range? Not really. My max range with a peep or 1x was around 180 yards. With my current 4-12x, it's about 220 yards but I'm ae lot more confident that I won't loose one if I do shoot past 180 yards.
 
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