Why is Point Creep a Problem?

F

fallguy

Active Member
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Why are so many people, including CPW commissioners, concerned about doing something about point creep? Seems to me if you want to hunt, you study the draw stats for the past few years, pick a decent unit that takes a few less points than what you have, apply and get drawn. Granted it may not be the unit you were hoping to draw when you first started applying for points but whoever said you'd be guaranteed drawing a specific unit once you got to "X" number of points?

I'm sure there must be some valid reasons as to why point creep is a problem so please educate me as I'm not to old or proud to learn. Thanks.
 
fallguy said:
Why are so many people, including CPW commissioners, concerned about doing something about point creep? Seems to me if you want to hunt, you study the draw stats for the past few years, pick a decent unit that takes a few less points than what you have, apply and get drawn. Granted it may not be the unit you were hoping to draw when you first started applying for points but whoever said you'd be guaranteed drawing a specific unit once you got to "X" number of points?

I'm sure there must be some valid reasons as to why point creep is a problem so please educate me as I'm not to old or proud to learn. Thanks.
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It's an entitlement thing. You put in for 'X' years and you have the right to draw the premium unit/tag.
 
Nothing remains the same. More people wanting the same amount or considerable less amounts of tags these days. Multiple western tag application outfits putting the mid west and east coast guys in. Many only purchasing points till they throw in. Didn't know I was living in the good old days of drawing and hunting great areas the last 30 yrs. Those days are over! Respect and enjoy any draw tag you receive these days!
 
Point creep is not a problem. Point creep is just a function of the draw system. When there are more people wanting something than there are of those things, there is going to be a line for those things.

As long as there are points, there will be creep. There is no quick fix scheme that will fix it. Even if every permit was given to the high point holder there is creep. (Colorado) The only way to get rid of creep is to get rid of points. I am not in favor of that. I like Utah's system and i think it is as fair as can be. I believe that people that have put in for 10 or 20 years should have a statistical advantage to those with zero or minimal points. I also like that with zero point a person still has a chance as small as it may be.
 
^^^^ agree. UT by far has the best system in place. I know others that worship NM's and ID's system laugh at this, but those same people either apply in several other states, or draw a tag every year in NM/ID.
 
I shouldn't have to wait 20+ years as a resident to hunt a specific tag, and then never be able to catch it after 20 said years because it's always going up a point. 20 years for a single tag is ridiculous. I could understand 10 or so. But as a resident, only being able to draw that tag MAX of twice in my life MAYBE....nope...that's stupid, IMO
 
MountainSqwabler said:
I shouldn't have to wait 20+ years as a resident to hunt a specific tag, and then never be able to catch it after 20 said years because it's always going up a point. 20 years for a single tag is ridiculous. I could understand 10 or so. But as a resident, only being able to draw that tag MAX of twice in my life MAYBE....nope...that's stupid, IMO
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So, what are you going to do about it? Is there another point system that will get you that dream tag every few years? Do you propose we give out 1000 Paunsagunt and Henry's deer tags and 1000 SJ Elk tags every year so that everyone can hunt? Maybe 5000 Wasatch and Manti elk tags. I'm interested in your solution.
 
elkantlers said:
So, what are you going to do about it? Is there another point system that will get you that dream tag every few years? Do you propose we give out 1000 Paunsagunt and Henry's deer tags and 1000 SJ Elk tags every year so that everyone can hunt? Maybe 5000 Wasatch and Manti elk tags. I'm interested in your solution.
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I don't have a solution. What I'll do about it is to either pay to play because I can always make more money, but not get more time, or I go for the tag that I know I can get an animal in, be it elk or deer, but just accept that I'm shooting the first legal animal I see. My point is I shouldn't be limited to the possibility of only getting a shot at MAX of 2 hunts where the chances of getting a large animal Is higher. I find it silly to waste more time of my life trying to draw a tag, rather than actually hunting.
 
MountainSqwabler said:
I shouldn't have to wait 20+ years as a resident to hunt a specific tag, and then never be able to catch it after 20 said years because it's always going up a point. 20 years for a single tag is ridiculous. I could understand 10 or so. But as a resident, only being able to draw that tag MAX of twice in my life MAYBE....nope...that's stupid, IMO
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Happens all the time with completely random draw states. Try going 30 years without drawing a tag others score their 1st or 2nd year putting in...

MountainSqwabler said:
I don't have a solution. What I'll do about it is to either pay to play because I can always make more money...
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Unless your able to increase income through passive (investment) income, making more money means you have less time...
 
roadrunner said:
Happens all the time with completely random draw states. Try going 30 years without drawing a tag others score their 1st or 2nd year putting in...



Unless your able to increase income through passive (investment) income, making more money means you have less time...
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Debatable, It's called getting into a career that pays enough to support your hobbies and allows enough free time to do those things. Thankfully God blessed me with a wife that has that and a job for myself that does as well.
 
The biggest flaw in the Preference Point System is points are only collected for First Choice tags. If you hunt, you should not collect a Preference Point. Includes Land Owner Vouchers, OTC, and 2nd and 3rd Choices.
For the Secondary Draw it should go to the applicants with the most Preference Points, same as the regular draw.
I think making it a choice for a PP, would ease the OTC Crowding.
 
MountainSqwabler said:
Debatable, It's called getting into a career that pays enough to support your hobbies and allows enough free time to do those things. Thankfully God blessed me with a wife that has that and a job for myself that does as well.
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Debatable. Few careers allow for making more money and time. If you work for money, you have less time.
 
roadrunner said:
Debatable. Few careers allow for making more money and time. If you work for money, you have less time.
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Many do, actually. But having 3 kids, 2 car payments, a boat and a camper and mounds of debt surely hinder that income a lot. If you get the right career, don't have mounds of debt, no kids, etc. That whole stigma of "work hard until you retire and then enjoy life" is a complete con if you ask me. There are a good amount of careers out there that allow people to have a very even balance of life and work and give good time off and pay well enough that you can go and enjoy said hobbies. Those who think that taking 3 weeks of pto a year is insane....are sadly working for places that don't value them. If you cannot take 3 weeks off or even 2, in a year long period, then that's your prerogative.
Now, back to the original discussion of colorados corrupt and crappy point system.
 
MountainSqwabler said:
Many do, actually. But having 3 kids, 2 car payments, a boat and a camper and mounds of debt surely hinder that income a lot. If you get the right career, don't have mounds of debt, no kids, etc. That whole stigma of "work hard until you retire and then enjoy life" is a complete con if you ask me. There are a good amount of careers out there that allow people to have a very even balance of life and work and give good time off and pay well enough that you can go and enjoy said hobbies. Those who think that taking 3 weeks of pto a year is insane....are sadly working for places that don't value them. If you cannot take 3 weeks off or even 2, in a year long period, then that's your prerogative.
Now, back to the original discussion of colorados corrupt and crappy point system.
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My question is not about Colorado's corrupt and crappy point system at all it's about whether point creep is a problem.
 
It keeps hiking up? Even for units like the NW corner units that TANKED this year still creap. That's an issue. There are units, like unit 3 antelope, that are about as worthless as they come right now, yet still experience creap. How is that fair in any aspect or sensible? Also, guys who apply 15 years for a 15 pp unit...yeahhhh guess what...now that unit takes 20 points. You will ALWAYS be behind.
 
Simple… there’s too much demand and not enough supply. Colorado already hands out tags like participation trophies in a lot of categories. Obviously the few tags that are limited entry are going to be in high demand. Couple that with the massive influx in applications the last couple years and you’re just adding fuel to the fire. The obvious fix would be abandoning ship on points and going to a complete lottery system like New Mexico, Idaho and Wyoming (residents) but you’d infuriate those who’ve had skin in the game 10, 15, 20 plus years… I think CPW is too deep into the system to ever change it
 
The_Coloradoboy said:
Simple… there’s too much demand and not enough supply. Colorado already hands out tags like participation trophies in a lot of categories. Obviously the few tags that are limited entry are going to be in high demand. Couple that with the massive influx in applications the last couple years and you’re just adding fuel to the fire. The obvious fix would be abandoning ship on points and going to a complete lottery system like New Mexico, Idaho and Wyoming (residents) but you’d infuriate those who’ve had skin in the game 10, 15, 20 plus years… I think CPW is too deep into the system to ever change it
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Solid way to put it. Maybe to ease the pain for those that have had skin In for say 10+ years there's some sort of buy back or????? And I'm not so sure to say if CPW is too deep, but more so that they just love the flow of cash that they get for all those residents and non residents that are putting in
 
Come on fellers, we’ve seen this one before. The crisis can only be solved by a price increase. The chatter is a diversion and trial balloon to some extent.

I used points to go on a couple “special” hunts. I’m happy with one-and-done for those and dropping back to the lowly 1-point and OTC hunts. It was and is stress free.
 
MountainSqwabler said:
Many do, actually. But having 3 kids, 2 car payments, a boat and a camper and mounds of debt surely hinder that income a lot. If you get the right career, don't have mounds of debt, no kids, etc. That whole stigma of "work hard until you retire and then enjoy life" is a complete con if you ask me. There are a good amount of careers out there that allow people to have a very even balance of life and work and give good time off and pay well enough that you can go and enjoy said hobbies. Those who think that taking 3 weeks of pto a year is insane....are sadly working for places that don't value them. If you cannot take 3 weeks off or even 2, in a year long period, then that's your prerogative.
Now, back to the original discussion of colorados corrupt and crappy point system.
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Yes....federal jobs
 
The_Coloradoboy said:
Simple… there’s too much demand and not enough supply. Colorado already hands out tags like participation trophies in a lot of categories. Obviously the few tags that are limited entry are going to be in high demand. Couple that with the massive influx in applications the last couple years and you’re just adding fuel to the fire. The obvious fix would be abandoning ship on points and going to a complete lottery system like New Mexico, Idaho and Wyoming (residents) but you’d infuriate those who’ve had skin in the game 10, 15, 20 plus years… I think CPW is too deep into the system to ever change it
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Yup supply and demand is the issue at heart. It's not the system but just too much demand for the primo tags. If you increase the amount of tags to allow more people to draw, then you kill too many top end and not-so-top-end animals and it's not long before the unit isn't what it used to be. Plus more hunters in the field affects the quality of the hunt. Another unrelated issue is the majority of the primo deer units are not what they used to be - not even close - so even if you draw a coveted tag, you may end up disappointed.

As for going to complete lottery and scrapping the points system, that sure would make for an interesting draw, but it would also make it hard to plan vacation time for some. That's not an issue for me personally but no doubt it would be for many. I like knowing when I can almost be assured of drawing a tag based on historical draw data. Also if you go to lottery, what do you do with the thousands of people with points? Do you give them X number of years to use them before the random lottery system starts or do you have some type of compensation plan like someone mentioned above? And what would a compensation plan look like? If you give everyone a few years to burn them, can you imagine what that would do to the draw odds of low to mid point units while the purge is going on?

I never bought into the idea that since I have a pile of points, I should be able to hunt the best units once or twice in my lifetime. There are too many guys in the system with as many or more points than me - it's simple math - my mom thinks I'm special but CPW doesn't. But I do think if I accumulated points through the years that CPW can't just say thanks for your past support but points are no longer worth anything as the system is being changed to 100% lottery. I'm not sure that would even be legal.

Your last sentence is why CPW has struggled for years trying to find something better but to no avail because no matter what they do someone is going to feel like they are getting screwed.
 
I think the Colorado system is working surprisingly well for deer for both residents and non-residents, many units are flat-lined or small amounts of creep or some even going the opposite direction. Elk is a totally different story as there are just not enough limited units for it to work well and OTC doesn't use points. I think OTC should burn 1-3 points per year depending if you are a resident or non (3 points). Pronghorn and the Big 3 have few tags that no system would work well.
 
Supply and Demand curves don't apply when talking about tags. Supply and demand applies when you are trying to find a market equilibrium for a price point, the supply of tags will never change against demand and the price assigned will never reflect that on a public scale.
 
chrisamx said:
Ponzi Schemes, really. Random with a higher application and tag price would keep things honest.
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No offense But, raising prices just to get people to drop out of the draw is just dumb. The prices should be kept at the exact levels necessary to manage the resource, and not a penny more. I know there is a trend right now with western states to raise prices above what is necessary. This is not good thing as these animals belong to everyone regardless of the size of their checkbook.
 
JPickett said:
best possible system there could be. you had 30 legitimate chances in 30 years in stead of 1 legitimate chance n 30 years. or i guess if were talking point creep , zero chances in 30 years
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Not if there was always a random tag as there is in UT.

With a point system, you will more than likely pull the tag sometime in 30 years instead of going on to year 31, 32, 33...
 
RRCowboyStar said:
The biggest flaw in the Preference Point System is points are only collected for First Choice tags. If you hunt, you should not collect a Preference Point. Includes Land Owner Vouchers, OTC, and 2nd and 3rd Choices.
For the Secondary Draw it should go to the applicants with the most Preference Points, same as the regular draw.
I think making it a choice for a PP, would ease the OTC Crowding.
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You are spot on! Want to curb or slow point creep, don’t offer preference points and hunt options, you either get a point or you get to hunt, not both. Means you would use points on second draw or leftover tags. Would go along way to ease the creep
 
The only thing I can thing of that getting old is a benefit is that I will soon be out of the draw pull:)
 
roadrunner said:
Supply and Demand curves don't apply when talking about tags. Supply and demand applies when you are trying to find a market equilibrium for a price point, the supply of tags will never change against demand and the price assigned will never reflect that on a public scale.
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And yet another FAIL……. :ROFLMAO:
 
Tier out who has remaining points, and go to random draws, until point holders have been drawn or we hit 5ish years. They keep the extra entries, but not a guaranteed preference so to speak. No points, and do a wait period of a year or two for a species drawn. No OTC tags for NR of any kind, and no guided outfitted preference either.

Tier system could look like the following.
20+ points = 8 entries into the drawing
13-19 points = 6 entries
5-12 points = 4 entries
1+ points = 2 entries

Or...

Split tags into two sepperate pools for applicants who have points (could put a restriction to no less than 5 points or something) and those who have no points. You can choose to opt out of point pool if you'd like but you can't opt in.

Both of these make a bit of a convuluded system and are quick ideas I just threw together so I'm sure there's plenty of holes in them. I think it offers a potential road to work down for a solution where point holders arent getting completely effed!
 
Jgill19 said:
Tier out who has remaining points, and go to random draws, until point holders have been drawn or we hit 5ish years. They keep the extra entries, but not a guaranteed preference so to speak. No points, and do a wait period of a year or two for a species drawn. No OTC tags for NR of any kind, and no guided outfitted preference either.

Tier system could look like the following.
20+ points = 8 entries into the drawing
13-19 points = 6 entries
5-12 points = 4 entries
1+ points = 2 entries

Or...

Split tags into two sepperate pools for applicants who have points (could put a restriction to no less than 5 points or something) and those who have no points. You can choose to opt out of point pool if you'd like but you can't opt in.

Both of these make a bit of a convuluded system and are quick ideas I just threw together so I'm sure there's plenty of holes in them. I think it offers a potential road to work down for a solution where point holders arent getting completely effed!
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Now there’s some interesting stuff to ponder.
 
How bout you just move to a system like utah has, 50/50. Keep building points but you always have a shot at the tag. Also move all elk tags to the draw like they did with the deer. If you draw you lose your points. This could significantly improve the otc units quality over time, and eventually you will have a similar system to the deer where there is a wide variety of points options for elk.

This way nobody is b!tching that they lost there points, or that their points are useless, but they have a legitimate chance to draw every year.

You are never going to get away from point creep as long as you have a point system, it just the nature of the beast.

But you could at least give everyone a shot at a tag every year.
 
Point creep is not a problem, its fake news. The tag I drew this year in a premier unit has taken the same number of points for a decade. Unit 2/201 early rifle elk has been in the mid to low 20s for a decade. Unit 66 deer 4th rifle has been in the high teens low 20s for a decade. Unit 44 4th rifle deer has been in the low 20s for a very long time. Heck, unit 35 4th season deer tags have gone from 14 points down to 8 points since the Utards blew it out. The unit I live in, 4th season buck has dropped from 6pts to 2pts.

Maybe it is a problem for non res tags, but that is not really a concern of mine.
 
Points have drawn me tags I would not have drawn in a simple lottery.Only have beat the odds once in lottery systems. Points are wonderful.
 
All of this is just talk until you can persuade the wildlife commission one way or the other. They pretty much have final say. I understand they want public input, but how much do they actually listen when $ is the biggest objective.
 
Ram270 said:
All of this is just talk until you can persuade the wildlife commission one way or the other. They pretty much have final say. I understand they want public input, but how much do they actually listen when $ is the biggest objective.
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I’d say little to not at all, it’s just a way to let pissed off residents like myself to vent and then they will do what they want to do anyway haha and they can go look, we got your input, now shut up and take it!
 
HntHrdr said:
I’d say little to not at all, it’s just a way to let pissed off residents like myself to vent and then they will do what they want to do anyway haha and they can go look, we got your input, now shut up and take it!
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Ain't guberment great!
 
I still feel the best system is not going to happen because of the money that the state agencies suck out of hunters. But it would be the fairest to hunters. It’s simple:

NO buying preference points. You apply for a hunt. If you don’t get drawn you earn a preference point. If you get drawn you have a tag. No tag turn ins. No buying points. No points restored for handing your tag back in. If you want to hunt this year, then apply to hunt. If you don’t want to hunt this year then don’t apply. It’s way too easy for us to just buy points without the intent to hunt that year. Point creep would dissipate quickly. I have points in Wyoming, Utah, Colorado, Arizona, Nevada, and Montana. My boy also has points in Oregon. If I had to apply and commit to hunts in these states when I apply , there is no chance I could have stockpiled these points.

Buuuuutttttt…… The state agencies would lose a lot of revenue from dumbasses like me just giving them money to buy points for a rainy day.
 
lif said:
I still feel the best system is not going to happen because of the money that the state agencies suck out of hunters. But it would be the fairest to hunters. It’s simple:

NO buying preference points. You apply for a hunt. If you don’t get drawn you earn a preference point. If you get drawn you have a tag. No tag turn ins. No buying points. No points restored for handing your tag back in. If you want to hunt this year, then apply to hunt. If you don’t want to hunt this year then don’t apply. It’s way too easy for us to just buy points without the intent to hunt that year. Point creep would dissipate quickly. I have points in Wyoming, Utah, Colorado, Arizona, Nevada, and Montana. My boy also has points in Oregon. If I had to apply and commit to hunts in these states when I apply , there is no chance I could have stockpiled these points.

Buuuuutttttt…… The state agencies would lose a lot of revenue from dumbasses like me just giving them money to buy points for a rainy day.
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Been saying this for a few years about another state. After 15 years of applying with no luck, eventually you should be able to pull a tag with some kind of preference. It's the crowd that could be standing next to a sewer processing plant that explodes and get nothing on them that have the problem with it because they pull a tag every year.

This is why I like UT's system, except for the turning tags in and buying points. Putting in for hunts still only allows you to draw one tag only.
 
roadrunner said:
Not if there was always a random tag as there is in UT.

With a point system, you will more than likely pull the tag sometime in 30 years instead of going on to year 31, 32, 33...
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Apparently you don't understand point creep. If it's takes the first guy 30 years, it takes the second guy 31, the third guy 32,....

Look up life expectancy tables, you're guaranteed to draw if you can live forever.
 
idahomuleyhunter said:
Apparently you don't understand point creep. If it's takes the first guy 30 years, it takes the second guy 31, the third guy 32,....

Look up life expectancy tables, you're guaranteed to draw if you can live forever.
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Apparently, you assume too much. That wasn't what my comment was about.

Go back and read all comments, not just cherry-pick what throws you backwards in your chair...
 
roadrunner said:
Apparently, you assume too much. That wasn't what my comment was about.

Go back and read all comments, not just cherry-pick what throws you backwards in your chair...
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I'm pretty sure I understand exactly what you're saying. 50% of random plus(times) 50% of zero chance of ever making the top of the pyramid, is still half the chance to go hunting. I'm not sure how this equates to "more than likely" in your mind.
 
idahomuleyhunter said:
I'm pretty sure I understand exactly what you're saying. 50% of random plus(times) 50% of zero chance of ever making the top of the pyramid, is still half the chance to go hunting. I'm not sure how this equates to "more than likely" in your mind.
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I'd rather have ANY chance at getting a tag every year, then no chance for 30 years.
 
MountainSqwabler said:
And when guys start going to the other units, it will start creeping badly in those units. It's a revolving door.
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But I hunt every year. With lots of tags. Multiple deer, elk, antelope, and bear. Then I have enough points to fill in in Wyoming if I were to ever have a year where I didn't draw. Also there are whitetails and offshore fishing, plus upland birds. If you are complaining about the system, adjust your plan. If you still apply for the 25 tags for 201, in a random draw, with 5000 trying for them, you won't be hunting elk very often.
 
Deercy said:
But I hunt every year. With lots of tags. Multiple deer, elk, antelope, and bear. Then I have enough points to fill in in Wyoming if I were to ever have a year where I didn't draw. Also there are whitetails and offshore fishing, plus upland birds. If you are complaining about the system, adjust your plan. If you still apply for the 25 tags for 201, in a random draw, with 5000 trying for them, you won't be hunting elk very often.
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I do adjust my plan, but I'd like a decent shot at good tags in My home state more than like....once every decade or more.
 
MountainSqwabler said:
I do adjust my plan, but I'd like a decent shot at good tags in My home state more than like....once every decade or more.
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So would 30,000+ other guys in your state, it's just not going to happen. Your better off trying to budget and buy a tag every few years if that's your goal.
 
JakeH said:
So would 30,000+ other guys in your state, it's just not going to happen. Your better off trying to budget and buy a tag every few years if that's your goal.
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That's honestly the plan, I'll deer hunt with points every 3ish years, and elk, well we will see on that. I get everyone wants it, but I'd rather do like Utah and have a CHANCE at a tag every year, rather than no chance for the next 20 years.
 
MountainSqwabler said:
That's honestly the plan, I'll deer hunt with points every 3ish years, and elk, well we will see on that. I get everyone wants it, but I'd rather do like Utah and have a CHANCE at a tag every year, rather than no chance for the next 20 years.
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I have this same argument all the time with people that want a random draw like we do here in wyo. Tope end areas are 1 or 2% draw odds that means you have a 98 or 99% chance to NEVER DRAW at least with points your guaranteed once
 
Bookhead said:
I have this same argument all the time with people that want a random draw like we do here in wyo. Tope end areas are 1 or 2% draw odds that means you have a 98 or 99% chance to NEVER DRAW at least with points your guaranteed once
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Who is guaranteed? Please direct us all to the regulation/law that guarantees this.
 
No kidding? I love the concept that you’re guaranteed a tag one day with points! You’re actual guaranteed to not get a tag pretty much every time you put in for one with out the “max” points for whatever tag it is. And those goal posts just keep moving so max points really means nothing.

1 or 2% odds suck. But factually they are better than 0% odds. I’m sure one of you will check that math but I’m pretty sure it’s sound
 
MountainSqwabler said:
And when guys start going to the other units, it will start creeping badly in those units. It's a revolving door.
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That happens all the time with a few people. But there are still quality hunts available with one or two points. Last year unit 111
(Eastern Plains) I can draw with 1 point. There was one person that burnt 23 points.
It is your choice were you want to apply and hunt. Is there any hunt worth waiting more than 10 years for? (Deer, Elk & Antelope)
 
I have two boys. Im in charge of all applications and long term strategy. This year we applied for all available species in new mexico, i bought numerous raffle tickets for Wyoming commissioner tags, several Alaska bowhunters association raffle tickets, 50 tickets to the colorado chapter of the rmbs. I like having a better than 1 percent chance of drawing a raffle tag, and only throw money in if I can afford to buy those odds. We also applied for deer, elk, and antelope in Wyoming with random draw chances of 2-3 percent. Also moose, bighorn, and goats in Colorado . Between them, my wife, and myself we had 58 applications plus the raffle tickets with random odds of 1-5 percent. The only tag I drew was an antelope muzzleloader buck in Colorado that I used points for. If you have been applying in states with all random draws, have your chances gotten better or worse? Worse for me. Points allow me to plan my hunts with some amount of predictability. I have enough points for a 76 muzzleloader bull tag. I'm waiting for my boys to be able to join me, likely with 1st rifle tags of their own. In the meantime, my home unit is leftover, and we kill elk every year there. Plus I've hunted 76 multiple times with friends, vacationed in it, took fishing trips there. Points allow this because i KNOW ill be hunting there. I love all systems. Wyoming, New mexico colorado...even raffles.
 
idahomuleyhunter said:
Who is guaranteed? Please direct us all to the regulation/law that guarantees this.
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I shouldn't have made a blanket statement but I'm pretty sure you knew what I meant in most cases as in most units in most state If you start getting points at a reasonable age you will get to hunt the area you want once before you die
 
Deercy said:
I have two boys. Im in charge of all applications and long term strategy. This year we applied for all available species in new mexico, i bought numerous raffle tickets for Wyoming commissioner tags, several Alaska bowhunters association raffle tickets, 50 tickets to the colorado chapter of the rmbs. I like having a better than 1 percent chance of drawing a raffle tag, and only throw money in if I can afford to buy those odds. We also applied for deer, elk, and antelope in Wyoming with random draw chances of 2-3 percent. Also moose, bighorn, and goats in Colorado . Between them, my wife, and myself we had 58 applications plus the raffle tickets with random odds of 1-5 percent. The only tag I drew was an antelope muzzleloader buck in Colorado that I used points for. If you have been applying in states with all random draws, have your chances gotten better or worse? Worse for me. Points allow me to plan my hunts with some amount of predictability. I have enough points for a 76 muzzleloader bull tag. I'm waiting for my boys to be able to join me, likely with 1st rifle tags of their own. In the meantime, my home unit is leftover, and we kill elk every year there. Plus I've hunted 76 multiple times with friends, vacationed in it, took fishing trips there. Points allow this because i KNOW ill be hunting there. I love all systems. Wyoming, New mexico colorado...even raffles.
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I'm the same way random sucks. I finally drew an elk tag as a resident after 10 years of applying for areas with 25-35% odds 9 of those years
 
RRCowboyStar said:
That happens all the time with a few people. But there are still quality hunts available with one or two points. Last year unit 111
(Eastern Plains) I can draw with 1 point. There was one person that burnt 23 points.
It is your choice were you want to apply and hunt. Is there any hunt worth waiting more than 10 years for? (Deer, Elk & Antelope)
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In Co i don’t think any hunts are worth waiting 10 years for, we have “point-flation” for sure
 
But with the current system I haven't waited one year, and we will hunt those 10 point hunts. Any body can do it. Some people probably have been putting in for a long time, and not been hunting. I would imagine a lot have been doing like me. Bottom feeding and having fun doing it. I built a barn for an elderly gentleman. He had just burned an ungodly amount of points on a rfw hunt. He had never hunted elk before, if I recall. He shot a spike, and was as excited about it as I ever remember being about any animal I've shot. My point is, there are lots of hunts worth waiting for. I'll take all I can get, but my leftover tag pumps me up every bit as much as that hard to draw tag.
 
idahomuleyhunter said:
I'm pretty sure I understand exactly what you're saying. 50% of random plus(times) 50% of zero chance of ever making the top of the pyramid, is still half the chance to go hunting. I'm not sure how this equates to "more than likely" in your mind.
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"...pretty sure..."

Nope. That's not it. You're combining posts that say entirely different things.

Nice try though.
 
In the point’s discussion guys only care about themselves, that’s why it gets so passionate, “ I’ve invested so much in points I’m owed!!” So he’ll never let it go.

I like to consider other things. Like the 18 year old kid just getting going and telling him

“ put in till your 68 and after those 40 years you might, maybe but probably never with this system start to be in the running for that sheep tag your dreaming about, but Likely it will just be a life long donation you never had a chance at in the first place. Sound great kiddo? I mean at least some old guy in front of you can keep his points and never get a tag too!!”

Frankly I think most would rather hear “odds are chit, might never happen, but every year you got a chance”
 
JPickett said:
Clinging to a broken system that just needs to die certainly shouldn’t be comforting. But whatever gets you through the night
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I'm 42 now and if I can just live another 50 years I'm guaranteed a tag. Some people on here think that living to, and being able to hunt at 90 years old, is a high probability event.
 
JPickett said:
In the point’s discussion guys only care about themselves, that’s why it gets so passionate, “ I’ve invested so much in points I’m owed!!” So he’ll never let it go.

I like to consider other things. Like the 18 year old kid just getting going and telling him

“ put in till your 68 and after those 40 years you might, maybe but probably never with this system start to be in the running for that sheep tag your dreaming about, but Likely it will just be a life long donation you never had a chance at in the first place. Sound great kiddo? I mean at least some old guy in front of you can keep his points and never get a tag too!!”

Frankly I think most would rather hear “odds are chit, might never happen, but every year you got a chance”
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The sheep draw uses weighted points. He has that chance. With my kids, I'm showing them how to draw every year. I'm sure not telling them to put in for 201 and chase that. There's nice bulls in those leftovers. There's elk hunting every year. Deer almost every year. Antelope almost every year. And those special hunts every 10 or 12. Or just apply every year for those one and two point units. Those hunts everyone is chasing are not that special really. The reason I like those harder to draw units is that they usually have less pressure.
 
Deercy said:
But with the current system I haven't waited one year, and we will hunt those 10 point hunts. Any body can do it. Some people probably have been putting in for a long time, and not been hunting. I would imagine a lot have been doing like me. Bottom feeding and having fun doing it. I built a barn for an elderly gentleman. He had just burned an ungodly amount of points on a rfw hunt. He had never hunted elk before, if I recall. He shot a spike, and was as excited about it as I ever remember being about any animal I've shot. My point is, there are lots of hunts worth waiting for. I'll take all I can get, but my leftover tag pumps me up every bit as much as that hard to draw tag.
Click to expand...
Yep I get it, I love some of the bottom units and really love those 4-5 point leftover units. I just think the right thing to do, to kind of curb this thing where all of us have 10 points and still grab tags is to say fine, you want to hunt, then hand over your points
 
This dog is getting beat to death. The system is broken and timeline for a new system needs to be put out on the table. I would be happy pure lottery or a squared system to incorporate the existing point holders.

CPW can still make there money on the application fees.
 
fallguy said:
My question is not about Colorado's corrupt and crappy point system at all it's about whether point creep is a problem.
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Point creep is a problem for game agencies. Most of those agencies derive their operating budget from license and tag sales. Preference point systems like Colorado’s disincentive all but a small group of high point holder’s from applying. Over time, as hunter’s realize that it is mathematically impossible to ever obtain enough points to get the tag they want, interest will drop, and so will license sales.

This problem is especially harsh for new and young hunters who are so disadvantaged by the misfortune of being born later that they will never have a chance at many tags.

Relying on a dwindling and rapidly aging client base is a losing strategy. Beyond simply finding the game agencies, new hunters are important to passing on our heritage and defending hunting at the ballot box. Preference points are a barrier to entry for many and therefore pose a risk to the North American Model.
 
Flatlander said:
Point creep is a problem for game agencies. Most of those agencies derive their operating budget from license and tag sales. Preference point systems like Colorado’s disincentive all but a small group of high point holder’s from applying. Over time, as hunter’s realize that it is mathematically impossible to ever obtain enough points to get the tag they want, interest will drop, and so will license sales.

This problem is especially harsh for new and young hunters who are so disadvantaged by the misfortune of being born later that they will never have a chance at many tags.

Relying on a dwindling and rapidly aging client base is a losing strategy. Beyond simply finding the game agencies, new hunters are important to passing on our heritage and defending hunting at the ballot box. Preference points are a barrier to entry for many and therefore pose a risk to the North American Model.
Click to expand...

Not drawing year after year with "an equal chance" while all their acquaintances do will disincentivize hunters as well, dropping interest.

People will only play a losing game so long, regardless of whether or not that game is equal or a weighted advantage...
 
these debates really are pointless. you will never be able to convince someone to give up their points for the tag they are "owed" because they are so invested in a system that simple doesn't work.

it is interesting that the concept of having some chance is better then having zero chance cant be grasped but what ever. in the end it doesn't really mean anything any way, its just a tag. game department will get their money, hunters will *****, no one will listen on either side and you get to die being the holder of the most points you could possibly obtain in your life time that you cant take with you and you never used...
 
roadrunner said:
Not drawing year after year with "an equal chance" while all their acquaintances do will disincentivize hunters as well, dropping interest.

People will only play a losing game so long, regardless of whether or not that game is equal or a weighted advantage...
Click to expand...
This is absolute bullsh1t. I've never had a OIL tag, but I've been on hunts with friends and family who have. And I take just as much joy in helping as I would if it were my own tag. And I know I'm not the only one, there are comments on this very thread saying the same thing. Unfortunately the world is full of pricks who think everything should be rigged for their personal benefit. If I never draw a random OIL tag so be it, wasn't meant to be, but that's a hell of lot easier pill to swallow than a 20 year old looking at draw odds and having to acknowledge he'll never draw no matter what.
 
idahomuleyhunter said:
Which zero point sheep tag can I draw right now? I'll put in.(MT unlimited I guess).
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Idaho

My response was qualified as Elk, Deer and Antelope. Sheep has a 3 Year PP Wait, after that it is a Random Draw. So you Have the same chance as anyone after 3 years!
As someone with No Elk or Deer point and 1 Antelope point, not sure how it is rigged. I hunt every year, success is measured in my enjoyment of being with my friends. We seem to kill some nice animals in 0 and 1 point units.
If you do a little digging at Colorado Hybrid Draw, you will see that you do have a chance at your Dream Units.
 
idahomuleyhunter said:
This is absolute bullsh1t. I've never had a OIL tag, but I've been on hunts with friends and family who have. And I take just as much joy in helping as I would if it were my own tag. And I know I'm not the only one, there are comments on this very thread saying the same thing. Unfortunately the world is full of pricks who think everything should be rigged for their personal benefit. If I never draw a random OIL tag so be it, wasn't meant to be, but that's a hell of lot easier pill to swallow than a 20 year old looking at draw odds and having to acknowledge he'll never draw no matter what.
Click to expand...

No, this is absolute bullshit and I don't give a damn what you do son.

We aren't talking about the few OIL tags available anywhere or the few LE tags available elsewhere. This is for hunts that offer anywhere from 150 to 300 tags for any given hunt in a draw system that gives everyone an "equal" chance.

These are for general season type hunts that have mediocre "trophy" status or are antlerless.

Quit being a little loud mouth punk and arguing for the sake of arguing. My hell...
 

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