Ultimag
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It doesnt.Why does a road have to go down a property line?
It doesnt.Why does a road have to go down a property line?
It doesn’t but would you want it going willy nilly through every section? North Dakota has an easement along every section, they don’t have roads around most of them in rural areas but it leaves room for future growth with a square grid shaped system. Ever flown over it and seen the road pattern?Why does a road have to go down a property line?
That was the main point of Leo Sheep. The majority opinion said no implied easement was reserved to build a road but if you want to access it, you already have the ability to use eminent domain.Leo Sheep Co v U.S. There is going to be no eminent domain on corners.
Again……Roads would not be constructed on hardly any of these nor will the majority of these parcels require a negotiated easement, the costs would just likely be far too cost prohibitive. My point was you can’t buy an easement for $2.05, that is just laughable…….Most of North Dakota is flat as a pancake. In most western states roads have to twist and wind around to follow the terrain anyways. If they were going the easement route I don’t think it’s be any big deal to only gain access through the corner. I actually don’t feel there needs to be road access though just enough to be able to legally walk in is fine with me.
Extremely. My point was you can’t buy an easement for $2.05, that is just laughable…….
You can't use/, claim Eminent domain Just because a certain group (hunters) are mad because the rancher wont let them across his property to go kill somethingI thought the discussion was if eminent domain was being used. If that were the case the landowner doesn’t really have a choice. If it was a negotiated easement then yes the price tag would be extremely high because all that public land that they have exclusive access to is actually worth a lot of money to them.
What is the other solution?You can't use/, claim Eminent domain Just because a certain group (hunters) are mad because the rancher wont let them across his property to go kill something
It can only be used if there is no other solution in this case there IS another solution but its, an expensive one
Ive known several people who have fought eminent domain and won, so yes the land owner DOES have a, choice he can take it to court & im thinking he would actually win
Compensation in the form of cashWhat is the other solution
Or the price, is, set by what the courts (judge) sets & im betting its gonna be a more then $2.05Yea I’d agree that landowners can win eminent domain cases but if they don’t the price they’re paid is still set pretty much out of their control.
That may depend on how much the landowners are paying the judge behind closed doors or whether or not the judge has some other benefits from this. I think most imminent domain cases generally shoot for fair market value of the amount of land used. The only argument really that the landowner could use is that providing access to the public land is drastically diminishing the value of they’re property which I’d say is their problem but I’m not sure what a judge would say.Or the price, is, set by what the courts (judge) sets & im betting its gonna be a more then $2.05
AgreedThat may depend on how much the landowners are paying the judge behind closed doors or whether or not the judge has some other benefits from this. I think most imminent domain cases generally shoot for fair market value of the amount of land used. The only argument really that the landowner could use is that providing access to the public land is drastically diminishing the value of they’re property which I’d say is their problem but I’m not sure what a judge would say.
If you don’t think eminent domain will be sought, I don’t either, now you’re back to a negotiated easement. I can tell you $2,05 won’t cut it with a group mostly of out of state NR Billionaire landowners.I really doubt this would ever go as far as using imminent domain either unless the agency that owns the land had reason to push it that far because of needing access to the land which in reality they should have but apparently they don’t really care it seems like.
Cash compensation is an option in every eminent domain case. That does nothing to explain why it couldn't be used in corner crossing.Compensation in the form of cash
I as a sportsmen also hope that. You also though have to be willing to admit a Judge though could rule it’s not excessively harming but is ILLEGAL and considered trespassing. Then we are back to square one. Possibly even an escalation or taking a step backwards as there may be enforcement by other counties. If this occurs then either negotiating with certain landowners ie biggest bang for the buck cases trying to secure those parcels with the largest size or potential amount of newly accessible public acreage. The last solution which is highly unlikely in Wyoming is a legislative action and that’s a two way street. My guess is the Stock Growers Association who has great power in Wyoming will push for a legislative action if they receive an unfavorable ruling. To date both sides have tried and neither sides bills ever made it out of committee. This case is certainly very important but it likely won’t be the end of the matter. I can say $2.05 won’t cut it……I’m hoping there isn’t a need for any easements and they rule that corner crossing is legal as it isn’t harming the landowners at all. I don’t think there’s an amount most of these landowners would be willing to take for a legal easement. Right now they get the benefit of having control and access to way more land than they actually own.
I never stated that $2.05 would fly. I merely stated that if the same method used to calculate the utility easement across my land and hundreds of others for the same transmission line were used, the value would come to $2.05 and that this is the typical method for calculating the value of an easement.I as a sportsmen also hope that. You also though have to be willing to admit a Judge though could rule it’s not excessively harming but is ILLEGAL and considered trespassing. Then we are back to square one. Possibly even an escalation or taking a step backwards as there may be enforcement by other counties. If this occurs then either negotiating with certain landowners ie biggest bang for the buck cases trying to secure those parcels with the largest size or potential amount of newly accessible public acreage. The last solution which is highly unlikely in Wyoming is a legislative action and that’s a two way street. My guess is the Stock Growers Association who has great power in Wyoming will push for a legislative action if they receive an unfavorable ruling. To date both sides have tried and neither sides bills ever made it out of committee. This case is certainly very important but it likely won’t be the end of the matter. I can say $2.05 won’t cut it……
I already answered that but here goes again………You keep touting this 9 square foot easement. Besides your payment offer being a joke and laughable you likely wouldn’t get an agreement on a mere 3’ X 3’ at each corner pin. Many horses are wider than that. The North Dakota model would be considered the Cadillac exemplary model and premiere example to try and pattern after. They have a 33 feet wide easement along every section so it’s actually 66 feet wide but each section owner has an easement across 33 feet for the entire length of the section. Using your valuations of $10,000 per acre is 33X 5280=174240 feet so about 4 acres per side of each section or about $40K per side. Take into consideration we are dealing with not hundreds but thousands of sections across the West.I never stated that $2.05 would fly. I merely stated that if the same method used to calculate the utility easement across my land and hundreds of others for the same transmission line were used, the value would come to $2.05 and that this is the typical method for calculating the value of an easement.
How would you calculate the value of a 9 square foot easement? Keep in mind that there are 43,560 square feet in an acre.
That seems, to be the million dollar question with no solid answerHow would you calculate the value of a 9 square foot easement? Keep in mind that there are 43,560 square feet in an acre.
I already answered that but here goes again………You keep touting this 9 square foot easement. Besides your payment offer being a joke and laughable you likely wouldn’t get an agreement on a mere 3’ X 3’ at each corner pin. Many horses are wider than that. The North Dakota model would be considered the Cadillac exemplary model and premiere example to try and pattern after. They have a 33 feet wide easement along every section so it’s actually 66 feet wide but each section owner has an easement across 33 feet for the entire length of the section. Using your valuations of $10,000 per acre is 33X 5280=174240 feet so about 4 acres per side of each section or about $40K per side. Take into consideration we are dealing with not hundreds but thousands of sections across the West.
First you say a 9 square foot easement, now you ask for a 6X 6 feet square easement, neither will accommodate a vehicle if a future road were to be built. You have to look at the future, remember we are in this mess as in 1869 nobody was looking out for potential future conflicts. Whatever type of easement we end up settling on it has to be something we can ensure public access for future generations. North Dakota has that model. It’s a 33 foot wide easement the entire length of every section, this prevents any potential corner hopping issues, allows for future growth and allows minerals, timber or other precious metal access. A $2.05 payoff won’t cut it. Start with 10K and you might have a few voluntary takers.As I have stated multiple times, I am talking about a 6' wide pedestrian easement which would be plenty to get a horse through.
There is no reason to go 33'. Even if there was your math is horribly wrong as a 33' easement would result in a 263 square foot infringement or roughly 6% of an acre.
Nothing has changed in what I'm saying. A 6' wide easement would result in a 9 square foot infringement. I even sketched it out for you so you could understand.First you say a 9 square foot easement, now you ask for a 6X 6 feet square easement, neither will accommodate a vehicle if a future road were to be built. You have to look at the future, remember we are in this mess as in 1869 nobody was looking out for potential future conflicts. Whatever type of easement we end up settling on it has to be something we can ensure public access for future generations. North Dakota has that model. It’s a 33 foot wide easement the entire length of every section, this prevents any potential corner hopping, allows for future growth and allows minerals, timber or other precious metal access. A $2.05 payoff won’t cut it. Start with 10K and you might have a few voluntary takers.
I agree it’s not going to get many takers at 10K but how many takers at $2.05. Now GET SERIOUS…..A billionaire or a millionaire selling his power and control for $10,000?
Get serious.
As it should be.Dont know what the answer or solution is, it will be settled by the courts shortly
I agree. I think I saw somewhere it was mentioned they would have some kinda concrete wall erected idk."But Grende was dissatisfied and said, after discussions about the law, that if the Wyoming Supreme Court deemed corner crossing legal, the ranch owner would take extra steps to obstruct, prevent or block access to public lands. A body camera worn by a sheriff’s deputy recorded conversations, the motion states."
What a dick.
First decent wind would have those bent 90 degrees right at the ground.Probably just put up a couple 20' flag poles.
It is the only one on record with a DA stating they will enforce publicly but privately nobody really knows, most keep silent so you really never know their position and a few admit they have better things to do with their time. Using a GPS with tracks and no corner pin survey located is tantamount to trespassing as for sure you never crossed that true corner. The accuracy of hand held GPS is always off 30-200 feet unless you have a commercial grade GPS and even those have daily issues. The military controls and operates the system and installs a small built in error rate which they have agreed to keep small but nobody has access to those codes except the military. You need to go out before the hunt and locate those corner marker survey pins, if not your taking on much more risk and surely trespassed. Remember in Wyoming it is your responsibility to ensure your position. My guess is many of these big ranches will start installing trail cams in the future and some may even go out and pull out the survey pins which is illegal.Is this really the one county in WY that a has a sheriff/DA that attempts to enforce criminal trespass? My understanding is the game wardens won’t issue a citation anywhere for this? But idk? Also I would think using ONX w tracks would be your evidence of where u crossed? I mean surely not every corner that is checkerboarded has corner post
In a criminal case, the burden of proof lies with the prosecution.Using a GPS with tracks and no corner pin survey located is tantamount to trespassing as for sure you never crossed that true corner.
that was my thought as well. You do not need to share anything and prove anything. Like you said they would have to prove it without a doubt and if there GPS is also off, is it possible that they are wrong and you crossed the right spot?In a criminal case, the burden of proof lies with the prosecution.
In Wyoming the Game and Fish law states you must know where you are at, at all times. If you cross a corner without a survey pin, I can show you where you trespassed if you save the track and try and use that as your defense…..In Wyoming the burden is on the hunter to know for 100% certain he isn't trespassing and a recreational GPS isn't accurate enough. It is up to the individual to know whether or not they are on private or public land. This is why a good defense is crossing a certified and surveyed corner pin…In a criminal case, the burden of proof lies with the prosecution.
There are commercial grade GPS you can buy but even those on certain days and certain atmospheric conditions have issues. In my experience in Carbon County I have found 90% of all the survey corner markers when searching for them. I don’t corner cross during hunting season but have gone on a few Rock hounding excursions. My guess is these large landowners will hire a surveyor and place a trail cam along with ranch hands patrolling during hunting season. The hope would be possibly Access Yes or outdoor groups like TRCP will pay to have better markings and signs. Also realize this only applies from BLM to BLM, if you are corner hopping state lands or BLM to state you may have a different outcome. https://www.trcp.org/unlocking-public-lands/So what is considered an accurate gps and what is not? Is it 100% ok to use a garmin to corner cross without a certified survey pin? There are probably millions of corners in Carbon County without pins. What if the pin or fence corners are wrong? Is it the hunters fault? Lots of unanswered questions that no one truly knows the answers to until there are specific regulations.
I don't think you answered elks96 question. If a hunter's gps and track isn't accurate enough to find the exact spot to cross how is a landowner going to be 100% sure he trespassed if a sheriff took the hunters gps with a track that isn't accurate?
The charges aren't WYGF charges. They're criminal trespassing charges. G&F can't put something in the proclamation that requires a defendant to prove their innocence. That goes against the very foundation of our legal system.In Wyoming the Game and Fish law states you must know where you are at, at all times. If you cross a corner without a survey pin, I can show you where you trespassed if you save the track and try and use that as your defense…..In Wyoming the burden is on the hunter to know for 100% certain he isn't trespassing and a recreational GPS isn't accurate enough. It is up to the individual to know whether or not they are on private or public land. This is why a good defense is crossing a certified and surveyed corner pin…
That's the dumbest fuggin' thing I've ever heard.Another good idea I heard about would be to quietly organize a big group of people in different states and have them cross the corners. Make an anonymous call reporting the trespassing and when the law enforcement shows up, have all your ducks in a row with GPS, maps, permits, identification and all of that. If they are overwhelmed with grey area trespassing cases that will be thrown out of court, they will be a no show or very careful for the next trespassing call. In order for it to really work, it’s important to have the people that are corner crossing not be white. There has to be race or gender involved for it to really go anywhere. If they are some other oppressed group like any minority, gay, or women then we could use that to our advantage because the press loves a case of discrimination and it will scare the courts away from being anywhere near it if it means charges to a gay couple or a single black dad with his son. That would be a headline that cripples any landowners refusal to public land. We could also use the arrest or fines as a way for us to virtue signal how horrible this is and we score points being a voice for the people treated unfairly.
Yes, in this particular case these charges are criminal but someone who trespasses and not merely jumps a survey pin will not be afforded that luxury. Some hunters have claimed they were trying to cross a corner and been wildly off by sometimes up to 200 to 300 yards and the Game Wardens have written citations for those, The point being if you are legitimately corner crossing an established corner then they won’t get involved but if you trespass and mistakenly miss the corner they write many citations for those blatant types of trespass. This is listed as one of the top 10 violations by Game and fish.The charges aren't WYGF charges. They're criminal trespassing charges. G&F can't put something in the proclamation that requires a defendant to prove their innocence. That goes against the very foundation of our legal system.
The point of the G&F rule is to say it's not the duty of the landowner to post their property, but that doesn't mean that a hunter can be cited for hunting on public property. Notice that WYGF doesn't prosecute for corner crossing.
Hear him out! True genius is usually not fully appreciated until they are dead.That's the dumbest fuggin' thing I've ever heard.
If you are walking across private property and you missed the corner by 200 yards and your rifle is on your shoulder with a magazine full of bullets, you aren’t going to be able to just claim you were corner crossing and get away with it. Hunting on private property is one of the too 10 game and fish violations. They literally write dozens of these types of citations every year. The responsibility rests entirely on the hunter, angler or trapper to know where he is and whether permission to enter private property has been granted. Nearly all Wyoming Game and Fish laws are strict liability. Trespass to hunt, fish or trap is an example of a Wyoming statute in which intent need not be shown.For it to be a G&F violation, the actual hunting must take place on the private property. They have clearly said that it may be a criminal trespass, but it isn't a hunting violation as long as the hunting takes place on public property.
Wtf are you even talking about commercial grade gps bs? Game and fish use the same maps we do on our GPS not every corner has a survey marker either. You blow allot of hot airIf you are walking across private property and you missed the corner by 200 yards and your rifle is on your shoulder with a magazine full of bullets, you aren’t going to be able to just claim you were corner crossing and get away with it. Hunting on private property is one of the too 10 game and fish violations. They literally write dozens of these types of citations every year. The responsibility rests entirely on the hunter, angler or trapper to know where he is and whether permission to enter private property has been granted. Nearly all Wyoming Game and Fish laws are strict liability. Trespass to hunt, fish or trap is an example of a Wyoming statute in which intent need not be shown. View attachment 66818
So would you recommend the coastal 20s? I hear they can withstand hurricane force winds.First decent wind would have those bent 90 degrees right at the ground.
Obviously you've never spent much time around elk mountain...
You are totally wrong.There are commercial grade GPS you can buy but even those on certain days and certain atmospheric conditions have issues. In my experience in Carbon County I have found 90% of all the survey corner markers when searching for them. I don’t corner cross during hunting season but have gone on a few Rock hounding excursions. My guess is these large landowners will hire a surveyor and place a trail cam along with ranch hands patrolling during hunting season. The hope would be possibly Access Yes or outdoor groups like TRCP will pay to have better markings and signs. Also realize this only applies from BLM to BLM, if you are corner hopping state lands or BLM to state you may have a different outcome. https://www.trcp.org/unlocking-public-lands/
I’ve never met a Game Warden yet who would corner cross. Your ignorance of commercial grade survey GPS units is apparent. Go ahead and trespass across a corner without a survey marker with a watchful land owner nearby and we’ll se who’s arse gets the hot air let out of it…….Wtf are you even talking about commercial grade gps bs? Game and fish use the same maps we do on our GPS not every corner has a survey marker either. You blow allot of hot air
Ok, I stand corrected on the military built in error rate, never knew they removed that but there is a difference in accuracy between a two channel commercial grade surveyor GPS and a handheld. Using two GPS frequencies improves accuracy by correcting signal distortions caused by Earth's atmosphere. Dual-frequency GPS equipment is commercially available for civilian use, but its cost and size has limited it to professional applications. Even the best GPS only have a 6.6 foot accuracy rate, many handhelds are off by hundreds of feet.You are totally wrong.
The selective variability was turned off during the Clinton administration...and has not been turned on again. Prior to that, I had a military grade gps, a plgr, that differentially corrected in the field. I also could make the corrections via GIS using base station coords.
Try your Google machine again...
I’ve found about 90% of them but many times I wander around in grid like patterns obviously trespassing in circles trying to find them. Trying to find some of them has taken me hours. Sometimes it’s a big challenge just to find them. That’s why Ive never done it during hunting season though I have done it during the spring and summer out Rock hounding.I’ve never come across a corner of a blm section that wasn’t pinned but maybe there are some out there as I definitely haven’t seen anywhere near all of them.
He is correct here. You cannot accurately cross corners with a phone and onx. You need a 3K gps system that is getting corrections from a base station. I agree that wardens and county sheriffs can't do any better, but if a landowner knows the exact corner and it is unmarked then they could tale photos of you 10-30 feet away from the corner.Wtf are you even talking about commercial grade gps bs? Game and fish use the same maps we do on our GPS not every corner has a survey marker either. You blow allot of hot air
Have you pondered the implications to the game being run by the lawyers who are legislators, and the hardship that the other lawyers would endure? I don’t see many solutions that simplify the bureaucratic state.It seems like the entire conversation, the legislative one, the Fish and Game one, the landowner one, the sport hunter one, the bar and grill one, the beauty shop one and the internet social media one are collective evidence the access to public land regulations are a total cluster and it’s long long past time someone with ultimate authority create a clearly defined regulation. There are enough people, with enough authority and horse sense to resolve public land access laws and they should be imposed upon to do it. It’s going to happen eventually……. for everyone but the landowner, putting it off any longer doesn’t make any sense.
Then they would have to prove their right and I'm wrong then what?He is correct here. You cannot accurately cross corners with a phone and onx. You need a 3K gps system that is getting corrections from a base station. I agree that wardens and county sheriffs can't do any better, but if a landowner knows the exact corner and it is unmarked then they could tale photos of you 10-30 feet away from the corner.
Then they would have to prove their right and I'm wrong then what?
Trail cams and video surveillance and probably place sand in a 15 foot diameter around the corner pin connected to Wifi activation if available, much of Carbon county in the desert areas have it, the elk mountain area iffy. He has plenty of Ranch hands available though.I still am curious how a landowner is going to prove a hunter trespassed unless they are caught in the act, on video/surveillance cameras, or find tracks, spent shell, or other evidence? If a hunter has his gps tracking turned off and there is no other evidence how is a landowner going to prove without a doubt they trespassed?
Like anything else there are always a few bad apples that will take advantage of any system that will cut corners and trespass if it is deemed legal.
Then you get a ticket for tresspassing from the county.Then they would have to prove their right and I'm wrong then what?
I don't think so pilgrim. If I cross a corner that's not marked and they show up with the same gps map I have and it also shows I crossed at the corner its most likely gonna end thereThen you get a ticket for tresspassing from the county.
Did you read my post? If they have an unmarked/pinned corner, but they have had it surveyed and know where the corner is and they have a video cam recording the actual corner and you crossing 30 feet away, don't you think that you could get a ticket? I agree if there is a pin and you cross on the pin then no ticket and I agree if they do not have it surveyed then no ticket.I don't think so pilgrim. If I cross a corner that's not marked and they show up with the same gps map I have and it also shows I crossed at the corner its most likely gonna end there
No because the video camera is dead because the batteries will not last that long. I would suggest they buy a used trail camera form one of the Utah guys.Did you read my post? If they have an unmarked/pinned corner, but they have had it surveyed and know where the corner is and they have a video cam recording the actual corner and you crossing 30 feet away, don't you think that you could get a ticket? I agree if there is a pin and you cross on the pin then no ticket and I agree if they do not have it surveyed then no ticket.
The question also arises if Onx or other programs will suffice to prove without a doubt in court as evidence used by hunters, sheriffs, and landowners? So many questions…so few answers!
If they have it surveyed, the surveyor will place a new monument based off of other sections corners that were recovered so this in theory, is just "Conjecture" or "an unlikely scenario"Did you read my post? If they have an unmarked/pinned corner, but they have had it surveyed and know where the corner is and they have a video cam recording the actual corner and you crossing 30 feet away, don't you think that you could get a ticket? I agree if there is a pin and you cross on the pin then no ticket and I agree if they do not have it surveyed then no ticket.
Prior to OnX making it too easy for everyone to do this I used to load gps coordinates for each corner section into my gps which was a very accurate way of finding corners so your above statement isn’t totally true.First and foremost, I nobody is looking up sections corners and punching them into a GPS. They're looking at Onx maps zooming in and telling it to take me to the corner.
I recommend you do that prior to hunting season to ensure you have the corner located visually prior to having a bow or rifle in your hands.
Prior to OnX making it too easy for everyone to do this I used to load gps coordinates for each corner section into my gps which was a very accurate way of finding corners so your above statement isn’t totally true.
My experience is that is correct. Surveyors will use other known points and use those to find the unknown points. What often happens is multiple known points will not reach the same conclusion on the whereabouts of the unknown point.To add further to the challenge…… left as it is currently, I’ve been told by a County Attorney, his experience has been, “if three different survey companies are hired to find and mark property lines, boundaries and corners, your most likely going to get three different lines, boundaries, and corners.” I have no idea if that’s true.
They could place a marker on the two private property pieces where when you draw a straight line it goes through the corner and then take photos/videos... of people trespassing because the actual corner is not marked. You don't think Elk Mountain and others would do this? The markers would not be visible from the public property.If they have it surveyed, the surveyor will place a new monument based off of other sections corners that were recovered so this in theory, is just "Conjecture" or "an unlikely scenario"
You are correct. Adverse possession does not apply to federal lands.I don’t believe you can take possession of public land through adverse possession which would be a fence line that isn’t in the correct place like you can for a bordering private land piece.
We focus on trophy elk, mule deer, antelope and moose hunts and take B&C bucks most years.