NR's, don't apply in AZ for premium deer/elk tags in 2006!

DonMartin

DonMartin

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I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but for any NR this year who doesn't have maximum bonus points for deer or elk, you CAN'T draw any of the premium deer (Unit 13A-13B,12B Late) tags or ANY of the early rifle bull elk tags.

Here is why. AZ has a 10% cap on the number of tags that NR's can draw in any given unit. We also have a 20% set aside for those with maximum bonus points for each species.

Under the current rules, those NR's with the maximum bonus points will draw all the premium deer and elk tags on that 20% set aside draw, which is done BEFORE the general draw.

Can you possibly draw a tag for deer/elk units that have lots of tags available if you don't have max bonus points? Sure you can, but just don't expect any kind of premium tag in a great unit, as it can't and won't happen.

I brought up this situation to the AZ G&F Commissioners at the meeting last Friday and they laughed as they walked away.

One department employee told me that "NR's who don't have max bonus points will just have to apply for non-trophy units if they want to hunt in AZ."

Ok boys there you have it, spend your money somewhere else, as those guys don't give a hoot about being fair to NR's who have less than max bonus points.

Sorry!

Don Martin
Arizona Wildlife Outfitters
 
Don, as a 5th generation native Arizonian and a guy who has never had a sheep tag in over 30 years of applying and has had one pronghorn permit in over 40 years of applying and who quit even applying for any kind of a "premium" elk or deer hunt years ago, i don't see this as a problem. Az. was very "fair" to nonresidents before the uso fiasco. from what i can tell, nonresidents got the best piece o' the pie last year, too. also, it was my surmise, that there were a lot of real vocal nonresidents who were behind uso all the way. including some real high profile organizations. as far as i am concerned, this just ain't a bad deal. if folks woulda let a sleeping dog lie, things would be a lot better. and don't get me wrong here, i'm all for folks hunting everywhere. but don't try to force nonresidents will onto any state, about anything. it might wake up and bite ya. and i'm also probably the worst critic our illustrious game and fish dept. has. from shroufe and the commission on down. but as a native of Az. i just don't see this as a problem. i know you're a guide and it might put a dent in your business, but Az. just doesn't have that much game to start with. we have the best elk, deer, pronghorn and desert sheep hunting in the world, but we don't have very big numbers of anything. no matter what, there is going to be big competition for permits. my dad just went over 20 years without getting an elk permit. he's never had a pronghorn or sheep permit. and he's an old, old dude. anyway, that's my take.
 
Wow, now I don't feel so bad. I'm also a Native of AZ and I have never had a bull elk tag, or antelope permit. It's a little rediculous. I agree with RLH. It's not that bad of a deal. It allows those who have been waiting the longest to finally get a tag. Why should someone who applies their first year get one?
 
I am not an Arizona resident nor have I ever hunted or put in for the draw in Arizona. I would love to start building bonus points but I feel that a resident or nonresident who has 20 points should definitely get a tag before a first timer. In fact, I feel that it would be more of a fair system if all states went by the max point rule. As far as guides and bussinesses go in the sport of hunting I feel that wether or not a guiding bussiness suffers because of lack of nonresidents being able to get tags is not even an issue to be considered. If you wanna guide then guide because you love the sport but not as a profit. fatrooster.
 
Guys:

I too am an Arizona native and have always been a strong supporter of the 10% rule. Here is how it works with me. I'm an Arizona resident first, an Arizona sportsman second, and a Arizona businessman third. Those are my priorities.

However, fair is fair and not recognizing that you have to give NR's a little piece of the pie is a bad way to conduct business.

That's how the Arizona G&F Dept. got us into trouble with the Taulman fiasco.

Let me clarify my position of this post. I'm not asking for MORE tags to be given to NR's. Nope, 10% is just fine with me.

What I'm saying is that those new guys who apply from out of state should have SOME expectation that they can draw, even if its just for one or two of the tags that have been authorized under the 10% rule.

Someone had to speak out for these guys before Taulman and/or soemone like him decides to take up the cause and land us back in court on some kind of discrimination issue. I was trying to avoid that scenario by bringing this to the attention of the department and Commission.

Right now, these new guys (and others) are being sold pie in the sky.

The department is taking in a heck of a lot of money in license sales and will get lots of application fees, and I feel that they should at least let these guys what they are getting in to. They need to tell these guys the truth, and then if they want to spend the money to buy some real expensive bonus points, I'm ok with that.

I've had just two elk tags in 25 years, same with premium deer tags. Done a little better on antelope, got four of them.

In summation, this isn't a us vs them issue. Its only about being fair and upfront with NR sportsmen.

Don Martin
 
Don,
I appreciate your candor and understand what you are saying. Game and fish mails out a list of the 2006 bonus point pools with their general hunting license and it is apparant that enough max point holders will prolly absorb all the 10% set-aside licenses. The bonus point stats don't show NR vs. Res bonus points but I presume you have seen those splits and that is the basis for your conclusion? I am sitting on 5 elk and deer and it looks to me like I could just as well throw my application fee out the window as I have a zero statistical chance of drawing a premium tag for many, many years. Game and Fish needs to be honest about those current draw odds. I agree with your conclusion that deceit will only result in another lawsuit when everyone figures out they have been mislead about having any chance in their lifetime of getting a premium tag. Buyer beware is a fact of life but one would hope that our gov't agencys would not resort to that plan!!!Your points are very well taken. Thanks
 
Don,
I agree with you. I think non-residents deserve a certain percent of tags. But they do not deserve to get a tag before the numerous non-residents who have been applying for years, or before residents who have never had a tag, and have been applying for years. I'm glad someone is trying to educate these non-residents on the chances of drawing a tag. I can already see an outrage from non-residents who feel they are being cheated and ripped off, but they wont go after the AZGF, they will attack us residents. We will become the bad guys in this whole ordeal. Just my opinion.
 
RLH an scremin, you missed Don's point. NR's will still draw 10% of the tags just like always. But only the people wiht max bonus points will even have a chance. So if you are a NR with less than max you will have to keep buying the hunting license each year even though you have no chance of drawing a tag. Your chances as a AZ resident will not change at all and would not change if the commission would have listened to what Don had to say.
 
Don, Thanks for the heads up. I'm a non-res with 5 points and my son has two points. How will bighorn sheep permits be allocated? Is there any chance for non-res with afew points? Thanks
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-06 AT 10:58AM (MST)[p]So if I'm getting this right - I am a NR with 3 points(putting in for archery elk in units 9,or 10),and was considering putting in for a pref. point only this year,when realistically I am NOT going to have any real shot at it until I've gotten up around 10 or more points?Just wondering what to apply for point-or chance to draw.






No Gut's...No Story!!!
 
Thanks for the info Don. Does anyone know what the max numbers are this year or have a link to the info?
 
Just wondering if most non-residents realize that this 0 chance to draw will mostly apply to the top units. You will have a chance in the less popular units for deer and elk. I have seen some monsters in these less popular units, so that may be something to consider. Just because it is not a popular unit mentioned in all the mags, doesn't mean there aren't any huge deer/elk.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-06 AT 02:01PM (MST)[p]Don I'm not sure if I'm following you correctly. Let me give an example and tell me where I'm missing the point (not trying to argue or dispute you.) Lets say 13B has 70 tags this year. 7 tags will be available for NR hunters. 14 will go into the 20% for max bonus points holders. There are several hundred people with max points applying for 13B. Say out of the 14 in the max pool, 4 NR draw and 10 Res draw. That leaves 3 NR tags available for anyone with 0 to 9 points. It's not a great chance but still a chance. Please let me now where my logic is inaccurate.
 
AZ402, I think Don is saying that since there are more non-residents at maximum points, the chances are good that all 7
non-resident tags would be filled before the general draw.
 
That's exactly what I'm saying. There are currently more NR's than residents with max deer and elk bonus points. And, under our 10% cap structure, that number will grow disporpotionately since only 10% of the tags per year will go to NR's.

Guys with 3-6 points for deer had better look at other hunts other than those premium ones north of the Ditch.

And those guys with 3-13 bonus points for elk had better look real hard at archery cause it ain't gonna happen on those premium rifle elk hunts. However, I'll say this, we consistantly take BIG bulls on archery hunts, so better learn how to hunt with those sharp pointed sticks!

Don Martin
 
You are right about the 7 NR tags BUT IF 100 NR and 100 R apply with 9 points (the max) the 14 set aside tags will go (theoretically) to 7 NR and 7 R. (EXAMPLE) AND THAT IS JUST THE 9 pool. You also have the 8s, 7s etc etc depending on where you are in the game. In my case there are over 4000 with more points (deer). The reality is that NR hold a greater share of the bonus points (I expect) making the situation worse than my example. The 10% NR cap will ALWAYS be extinguished by the 20% bonus set aside in the top units.
 
I've seen several posts on this site and others about how many people have X amount of points, and how many people have max points, and what number the max points are. Where are these numbers coming from? Does AZGF give them out? Am I in max points with 9 as a resident?
 
AZ sent every NR a list with the license app. It shows how many people have how many points for each species. I think it is total Res and NonRes.
For example:
Elk:
17 points - 2
16 points - 21
15 points - 81
14 points - 127
13 points - 226
12 points - 325
11 points - 528
10 points - 812
9 points - 1364
etc....
"Whatever you are, be a good one."
- Abraham Lincoln
 
Sremim,
The AZGF sent me a copy of the bonus point structure with an application. I think they want me to throw my money away on a hunting license and that is their disclaimer do they can avoid feeling guilty. 9 points is max deer and 17 max elk.
 
Did they send them for the 2006 draw already? Or was it from last year? Are they only sending them to non-residents?
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-06 AT 03:21PM (MST)[p]If there are 7 allocated NR tags (10% of 70) and 14 tags are set aside in the 20% pool, it doesn't mean anything in regards to who will get those pool tags. That drawing from the 20% pool is done just like the general drawing, via a computer for those with the most points.

So if there are 500 guys with max points who apply, split evenly between res. and NRs, it's STILL possible NO res. or NR might be drawn before all 14 tags are issued. Or it's possible every tag would go to residents or to NRs. Or...it could wind up with any number in between. It depends on what names the computer spits out. Of course, the odds for NRs would increase somewhat if the distribution of the 500 applicants is skewed more to NRs with max points.

BUT...if the first 14 names drawn are residents, then all 7 NR tags would still be available in the general draw. The only way the seven NR allocation can be eaten up in the 20% pool drawing is if half (7) of the first 14 names drawn are NRs. The likelihood of that happening isn't as great as it appears.

In other words, it's still a crap shoot for everyone, including me who has applied for a resident sheep tag for more than 35 years now. :-( -TONY
 
Sremin, The points for the 2006 draw are listed on the back of the letter that the AZGF sent out in March. It was the letter with the license application.
 
Don,

Thanks for the level-headed post and replies! With only 5 points to my credit, it looks like I'm done applying in Arizona. Simply put, there's no reason for me to sink a couple of hundred dollars per year on odds so slim that drawing a great tag is highly unlikely. It's too bad that some common ground can't be found on this issue. Good health and hunting to all!
 
I have to agree with OutdoorWriter on this one. Unless there are only 10 to 20 tags in a hunt. I think anyone will still have a chance, albeit a slim one.
 
Hey, if there are only 10 to 20 tags, everyone already has a slim to none chance. :)

BUT...if you look at it another way, a hunt with 20 permits means 2 for the 10% NR cap and 4 in the MAX BP pool, regardless of residency. The latter still leaves 16 permits for the general draw, and where the NR ones wind up will depend on who the first 4 names drawn in the 20% pool are. Again, that could mean all resident, all NR or a mixture for that draw. -TONY
 
Unless Don has all the bonus point statistics it is pure speculation on the current status of NR. Second, the best odds of NR getting elk tags are the LATE rifle tags NOT archery! There are more than triple late rifle tags than archery. Why encourage someone to take up a weapon they've used and fling "sticks" around unresponsibly. It always irks me when people come into the shop to buy a bow a couple of months before the hunt and they only did it because it was easier to draw than a early bull tag. This is particularly irresponsible advise especially when there are better odds to draw in the late rifle hunt. Alot of the archery hunts are almost as hard to draw as the early rifle hunts.
 
It needs to be understood that these are the tropyhy hunts that already have less than 1% draw odds. So if NR are only applying for these hunts, they will probably never draw anyways. There are plenty of other elk hunts in this state where huge bulls are taken. The late hunts and the majority of the archery hunts are unreal compared to other states, and taking a 350 bull to some is a bull of a lifetime. It is in the eye of the beholder, and not everyone needs a unit 10 early bull tag to kill a whopper.
 
I think what Don was trying to say was drawing a " premium " elk tag. I dont consider a late rifle tag as a "premium. I have only been putting in for archery elk for the last ten years as a resident and have'nt been drawn. Never had a antelope tag. Never had a deer tag north of the ditch. But I did draw a sheep tag my fourth year. Sorry to all of you that has put in for 30 plus years. But that's the way it goes.
 
I am the 5th Genaration in Az. and I am a guide! Not because I am a game pimp Just because I love to be out in the woods and there are good people that need a guide.I understand wanting to get a tag here for I to am still wating for a Trophy tag after 21 years. I do not think that Az should missrepersent hunts and I do not feel that they do. I apply for tags all over and spend alot money on points but I do not cry when I do not get tags.
I do care about the game more than the money that is why I will not take out those who do not respect the game that they hunt. I belive that we need to STOP CRYING and STAND TOGETHER to protect our right to hunt.
In full; I am sorry that this might hurt your buisness but we need to just deal with it.
 
I heard Disneyland is considering a 10% non-resident cap!
just kidding....... not sure I want to take that nonres hunter safety class...... I may think about NV INSTEAD!!!!!
RACKMASTER
 
Let's remember that the draw for each unit is under an "up to 10% for NR applicants." There is no NR setaside of 10% of the permit numbers. It's not likely, however it is possible, that a unit could find no tags issued to NR applicants at all if the computer generates their apps poor (read as very high numbers from the 1-1,000,000 pool) random numbers.

If a NR has their heart set on an early rifle or muzzleloader bull elk permit, or an archery bull elk hunt in units 1,7,8,9, or 10, it will require the long term plan approach to build BP to draw a tag IMO. There are lots of units where a NR's chances of drawing are better and emailing Don Martin for his list of "sleeper units" might be a wise move.

Good Luck in the 06 drawings to us all!
 
Thanks for keeping us nonresidents in mind Don. I do feel that it is a shame for someone just applying to Arizona to have absolutely NO chance at drawing some of the premier tags. Arizona has basically turned the tags into a preference point draw for many areas.
 
First of all, for those that might be thinking I'm upset about this issue because it will hurt my business, YOU ARE WRONG!

I've been in business since 1987 and am doing well. I have lived and worked through ALL the 10% years, and going back to it won't mean a lot to me. If I can't make it with the 10% rule in place, I'll do something else.

I'm a small outfit (9 guides) and have plenty of work for everyone. In the past I have even turned down work as I won't put someone in the field with a person I'm not sure of.

I brought this issue up for just two reasons. First of all, I don't believe it's fair for AZ G&F to sell NR's licenses and charge them application fees while at the same time failing to tell them they are essentially out of the draw for premium deer (north of the big ditch) and all early bull hunts.

I thought by bringing this up and giving the Comission the opportunity to correct this situation, that it would be better for all, and save them the embarassment and possibly even litigation from some Taulman type who will no doubt see this for what it is, a rip off.

Folks don't generally apply in Arizona for years and years for hunts that aren't trophy quality. If they are applying for meat hunts, they'll draw them, and G&F knows this.

They (G&F & Commission) chose to ignore the information that was brought to them as not being important.

Now as far as I am concerned, they can answer all the questions and field the complaints from all the guys who are going to realize that they are getting ripped off UNLESS they apply for hunts that have a lot of tags, OR for hunts that aren't known for being in a quality unit.

The second reason was I told Skeetsbo on the Arizona Bowsite I would do this. As a man of my word, I did as asked, and brought it up to the Commission at the April meeting.

Anyway, I've said it before, fair is fair and what is going to happen now to NR's who have been applying for premium AZ tags for many years is just wrong!

I hope this clears up any misconceptions about what my reasons for doing all this really are.

Don Martin
 
Let me start out by saying what Don Martin tells you is true to his form. This is an individual that has worked to promote hunting in this state and has gone above and beyond to protect the rights of the sportsman be they resident or nonresident. My handle on the other site is Skeetsbo and while I personally have never met Don (something that will change in the future), I can tell you that he did promise me to bring it up before the commission and did. To say that he did this for business purposes couldn't be further from the truth. He did it because it was the right thing to do and that speaks volumes about this guys character.

We may never really understand why people do what they do, but I can assure you that in this case it was done to right an inequality in the system. To make things fairer for the nonresident so they would have a better chance to draw a tag w/o the max bonus points. That's behavior that's pretty hard to condone in any fashion.
 
What I don't understand is how this is ripping NR off. I don't see how it is any worse than what was in place before. The 20% to Max point holders was to help improve drawing odds for those with alot of points who were getting screwed by those with few points. I feel this is fair. Arizona draw rates for premium hunts is no worse than many other western states. How are NR getting a raw deal? Don, this simply is your perception and the only way NR will get upset is if you try and make your perception their perception.
 
Bubbas,

This has been beaten to death, but I might as well get in a few blows.

The "perception" by a lot of people is that AZ draws using a bonus point system, where everyone has at least some chance of drawing a tag. As a NR you have to pay ~$140 to play the game, thinking you are getting something (a chance) for your money. The reality is all of the premium unit tags for NR will VERY likely get drawn (hit the 10% limit) during the 20% stage, and these will only go to max point holders (like a preference point drawing).

Is AZ deliberately deceiving NR? Almost certainly not. But it is true that a lot of people don't realize they have absolutely ZERO chance of drawing the tag they are dreaming of. So in some sense it is a "raw deal", they paid $140 for nothing. This whole matter is probably an unintended consequence of raising the preference point drawing stage from 10% to 20% last year. Bottom line is not that many people realized the effect of the change on the NR draw, and Don was just trying to raise the issue with G&F, which I appreciate.

JR
 
JRABQ has stated the issue perfectly from a NR perspective. The problem and it happens over and over in many of the states - when changes are made one group gets an advantage at the expense of others - justifiable or not. The problem is you send your money in for a number of years with the assumption that you have a CHANCE albeit very, very slim and now all of a sudden the $500 or $1000 or whatever you have contributed gets you absolutely nothing and a zero chance. The rules have been changed mid-stream. Colorado has done it numerous times. It just gets old having the rules changed all the time - and it isn't the game departments it is the politicians.
 
Just a question, not trying to stir anything up, but what is the difference between those who pay the money for only a bonus point and those who apply for the impossible draw? There are many people who apply for points for many years before applying for a tag. If it is looked at as buying a point, then there is no problem. Right?
 
I guess the difference is the perception of each applicant. One knows he is only buying point and the other thinks he has a chance.

I first read about the effects from DonV over on bowsite and I am glad I know. I won't be holding out or applying for the top units.

Thanks to all those who are letting NRs know.


"Whatever you are, be a good one."
- Abraham Lincoln
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-28-06 AT 01:43PM (MST)[p]I AM AN AZ RES, AND I THINK THAT THE AZDGF ARE CROOKS!!! I HOPE THAT THEY GET SUED AGAIN AND LOSE THIS TIME. DID YOU GUYS KNOW THAT OUR GREAT LIBERAL GOV APPIONTED SOME CHICK TO THE GAME COMMISION THAT LOOKS LIKE SHE COULD BE A GREAT "BUDDY" OF OUR GOV? SHE HAS NEVER EVEN HELD A HUNTING OR FISHING LICENSE!!!
 
dude i am only defending this!!! You are a serious loser. You know I am one of those rich people that love to jack the cost of hunting up.

I was informing you abou the new wildlife comissioner and you have to be a total jerk
 
Safari Kid were you the one who bought the AZ GOV mule deer tag in Phoenix 2 weeks ago??
 
Safarikid,
You are rich huh? Then how come on the utah draw post you say your wife is gonna kill you for spending $1200 on a sheep tag? You're full of lies and everyone knows it. You are not defending anyone
 
Thanks Don for the heads up. We as Non-residents should e-mail Az game and Fish and complain about this issue. I've been hunting in AZ for the past 12 years on and off depending upon drawing a tag. My home state of Nevada just sucks for getting a tag so I depend upon Az to be able to hunt. Az should tell all that apply that there chances of drawing have been limited because of the new 20% rule. At least in Colorado, they have the preference point system, and you know where you stand and don't have to fork over a license fee. I believe AZ should go back to the 10% rule for all and leave it as was. Why for all the changes? MONEY!!!!!!!!!!! I went and emailed the Gov. about this topic before it was brought into law, but, to no avail. We as Non-resident should get together and email her and see if we can make a change. I'm not asking for more than 10% of the tags, but a chance, even a slim chance at drawing that premium tag. Again, thanks Don for the heads up. One question Don, I heard a rumor that the Indian Reservation bought up $37 million worth of unit 10. Do you know anything about it?
 
If all of you NR don't like what AZ is doing then don't put in. I am a resident and have never had a antelope tag,haven't had a elk tag in ten years. Never a deer tag north of the "ditch". So quit complaining.Even with all the numbers that Don is rattling off there is always a chance for a NR to get a tag. I'm waiting on a "premium tag" just like lots of other residents. If you want to hunt Az then you can wait your turn or put in for non-premium tags. NR have had in good in AZ for a long time. If your mad e-mail USO they are the ones to thank for the changes.

My home state of Nevada just sucks for getting a tag so I depend upon Az to be able to hunt. Az should tell all that apply that there chances of drawing have been limited because of the new 20% rule.

That's a good one, you depend on Az for a tag. So what state should I depend on to get a tag.
 
Remember, AZ does not classify any hunt as "premium" or any unit as "premium" over another. Oh sure, you can call the Strip and the Kaibab premium units and focus on the handful of elk units that all the hunting magazines keep touting every year, or, you might want to get off of those units and be a bit more creative at permit application time next month. Go ahead and put in for your dream hunt first choice but then do not pencil in another dream hunt in spots 2-5! Be realistic, there are tens of thousands of applicants and the hunts Don is talking about have really tiny tag numbers. You can find a mature bull on hunts in AZ other than the coveted units everyone speaks about in hushed and revered tones. Explore the possibilities in these "other units" and you just might be too busy hunting elk to worry about how many BP's you've built up for another run at unit 9 or 10.

Good luck in the '06 draws!
 
Sorry guys but I would have to whole heartedly agree with CouesFever. From a dollar value, NR in AZ had it really, really good for a long, long time. AZ has some of the best trophy hunting in the west and our NR fees were typically the lowest.

You can thank USO for the situation you are in now.

I personally have not had an elk tag in 9 years and only 1 deer tag in the last 3 years.

I don't know if Don's numbers and methodology are 100% correct but the fact is we all need to get lucky when it comes to drawing a tag in AZ. AZ trophy wildlife is a limited resource (supply) and applicants (demand) continues to sky rocket.

Instead of complaining, NR should be grateful AZ sets tags aside for them at all. Is it fair that my odds of drawing a tag (as an AZ resident) are less because they set 10% of the tags aside for people who do not live, work or pay taxes here? Don't think.

Be grateful for what you had, for as long as you had it, and for what you still have. Probably, the ability to buy tags OTC in your own state as well as apply for and possibly draw a trophy tag in another state that you don't even live in.
 
ASU,

Not trying to start an argument, but AZ does not "set 10% of the tags aside" for NR, it is a 10% cap. Not a huge deal, but it does make a difference (almost always bad for NR).

I am grateful for the hunting opportunities I've had in AZ. But why in the Hell am I paying for USO's mistakes, they never got a nickel from me?

JR
 
LAST EDITED ON May-04-06 AT 03:00AM (MST)[p]ASU,

Why not start (re-start) an argument? USO is not the problem, they are a convenient scapegoat (disclaimer... never met a USO guy in my life... and certainly never sent them a dime).

The problem relates to exploding human, and resident hunter, populations across the West, with an attendant increase in demand for a limited, and relatively low priced, opportunity to hunt quality big game, in Arizona and elsewhere, on FEDERAL public lands belonging to all Americans. There is no obvious solution to this problem.

Yeah... I know... this matter has already been hashed to death... and settled (some would say) in Congress. But when the anti-hunters flooding into Arizona (and other Western states) begin their campaign some day to shut-down hunting on public lands there (after all, what God-given right does anyone have to hunt animals on public land) don't expect any help, financial or otherwise, from the large sector of the non-resident hunting community across America who have been walled-off from their opportunity to hunt on FEDERAL lands in Arizona. You'll be on your own... which I'm sure the extremist, and short-sited, among the Arizona hunting community would say is just fine.

After all, if resident hunter opportunity for quality tags in Arizona fell from something like 94% (the 10% cap usually translates practically into about 6% of the tags going to non-residents) to say, 85%, then all know that the sky would fall and the world would come to an end.

I am a former resident of Arizona who now chooses to live in another western American state... but as far as many of the extremists in Arizona are concerned, I could as well be a citizen of Afghanistan (or worse yet... France).

Okay... let the witch-hunt begin. Somebody race to look-up my profile, and review all of my previous posts, to determine what kind of heretic would post such information on MM. We've all been through this drill before.

So tell me again... what God-given right does anyone have to hunt on public land in Arizona? They don't... its not a right... its a privilege, that without the People's support, can be taken away.

Finally... I still have many friends in Arizona... own property there... and travel to Arizona every year. The last thing in the world that I would wish for is to see hunting further restricted in Arizona. That is why I have believed for many years, that the increasing trend to wall-off non-resident hunter support for hunting in Arizona has been a politically short-sited mistake.

(My one and only post on this thread).

HornedToad
 
Here we go agian with its "FEDERAL" land. Big deal, you have every right to use is as much as I do.

Hornded Toad I see that was your one and only post on this thread so I shouldn't ask this but I will, you mention that USO is just a scapegoat for blame, well so is AZ. AZ IS NOT the only western state to limit NR hunting to such a degree. There are others, but do you ever here of them? No. Why? Because they don't have the trophy quality like AZ so nobody cares. Everybody wants a trophy, which can then be translated to greed. Everybody always says that a trophy could be a 260 bull or a 400 bull, it depends on the person who shot it. Well obviously that is not true. If it were, there wouldn't be this debate about just AZ. Maybe you don't remember Prop 202 in 1992? They tried to ban hunting. Didn't work, and it wont work next time either.

P.S. You don't ever want to meet a USO guy. They are the most unethical people around. They do whatever it takes to get an animal, regardless of whether or not they break the law or screw somebody's hunt up. I've seen it.
 
Thanks Don, I figured this would happen. I'll play the game until I get my deer tag since I have max points but after that AZ can shove it . this is pay back for the USO mess in my opinion and it's paved the way for other states to kick the non res around with the new legislation. it's sad to see the friction between res and non res hunters build as it hurts those us who hunt more than one state and probably all hunters in the end.
 
"walled off"? OK, now I'm confused. I was under the impression that AZ had a 10% NR cap, not a 0% NR cap.

I am very much aware that hunting on public land is a privilege and reread my previous post and never once saw the word "right".

The fact is, things would probably still be running the same as they were 3 to 4 years ago before USO stuck their nose into things (with the exception of increased applicants and overall decreased odds of drawing tags for everyone). After the USO fiasco, AZ had to take actions to prevent that type of thing from happening again. It is unfortunate that one entity made things worse for a bunch of other people. One thing it definetely is not is "pay back".

I wasn't trying to restart an argument but was a little upset at all the AZ bashing that was going on. Do the NRs really think their odds of drawing an AZ tag should be EQUAL to that of AZ residents? I don't think it should be equal and I am sorry if you disagree with me but that is my opinion. On the flip side, I think my odds of drawing tags in other states should be worse than residents of that state.
 
ASUCoues,
Of course Non-residents should have an equal chance at our tags!!! After all, it is THEIR FEDERAL LAND that these animals run around on, which makes the animals theirs, and because they live back east, or in other western states without the same quality, by golly they should have the same chance as us to get an AZ bull elk tag!!! I'm sure we're welcome anywhere east of CO to hunt the booming huge amount of whitetails at the same equality of the residents of those states. Why shouldn't they be able to hunt our extremely limited, drought stricken, 400" behind every tree bull elk at the same equality we can? I would certainly trade my AZ bull elk tag or strip deer tag for an eastern whitetail!!! Wouldn't you? It's only fair!!!

Anyways,
I agree with you ASUcoues. Had USO not screwed around and try to be greedy, none of this would have had to happen. Things probably would be close to the same as the last few years before, except maybe tag fees. Then again, maybe they wouldn't be going up so high either. As I said before, the only reason people are so hateful towards AZ is because of the quality of animals we have. The other western states that limit non-residents as much or more than AZ don't get a second look. It's because people are greedy and want the biggest. It's not about the quality of the hunt, but the quantity of antler points. Sure it's every hunters dream to kill a big animal, I want to myself, but when you bash other states because you have a limited opportunity to hunt for that big animal, you are being greedy. Anybody is welcome to come hunt deer in AZ on the Kaibab and Strip every year OTC. Oh wait, it's not with a rifle and it's not during the rut when you can walk up to a deer and shoot it. At least it is an opportunity. There are bull elk hunts that non-residents can draw every few years, but because they are not in 1 of 5 top units nobody thinks its worth it. Again, greed.

If this is not true then I apologize, but why hasn't anybody complained about New Mexico requiring non-resident elk hunters to hire a guide? What if AZ does that?
 
Tell me if I'am wrong. But, didn't USO ask the Game and Fish Dept. for an increase of NR tags of 15 to 20% before they filed a law suit? I'd be surprised if any NR bithched like a baby if NR's could get up to say 17.5% of the tags.
 
The whole reason about the tears from non- resident is the fact they want a 200" mule deer or a 400" elk or any sheep tag. And Az can offer that. I sorry to say that I have become a trophy hunter also. I not content to kill a 150" mule deer or a 300" elk". But I am waiting till I draw a tag just like alot of other resident. Maybe what you NR don't understand there is a cap on the Resident also. Not every resident that put's in get's a tag. But I guess that what we should do open the door and kill everything in Az in 06. Then we can goto Ut-07,NV-08, NM-09, ID-10,WY-11, MT-12.You can have Kalifornia. If USO would have just kept their big mouth shut NR could have enjoyed hunting in Az for along time. USO didn't care about the coues deer, Antelope,or any of those non-premium elk area's. Just like all of you other NR I here whining. Now there is a cap on everthing Down to christmas tree's & B&C jackrabbit's for you NR.

Sorry for the venting but some of you are worst than my four year old who get told no for the 6th time.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-04-06 AT 07:35PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-04-06 AT 07:32 PM (MST)

Don, thanks for the heads up. You are quite an individual, cheers to you.

I think what AZ Game and Fish is doing that is so terribly wrong, whether intentional or not (I think it is NOT intentional) is deceiving the the majority of non residents that are applying for tags.

I am pretty savy on all the scuttle butt and statistics and stuff, for all the Western States I want to hunt in, so I am going in with a clear head to the AZ draws this year. However, I am afraid that most guys do not, and if they knew what was up would be extremely upset, especially after they have lost their money!!!!!

In the regs, AZ should inform the non residents how the new 20% Max point deal could affect them. The problem is the system is terribly convoluted and complicated and trying to write on a page or two what the real deal is would be extremely difficult at best and a fiasco at worst. The fearless leaders probably figure it is best to keep their heads in the sand. That is what successful politicians do best.

The attitude SOME AZ hunters have is pretty depressing to me. Non resident that, non resident this, you should move here, we are poor, you are rich. What I mean is SOME residents slaming all non residents who voice their concerns about the goofy way AZ is doing business these days. And the if you don't like it don't hunt here attitude. Another thing, is the "it is all USOs fault", which is just a Red Herring. No I am not a USO fan or hater.

We are all hunters here and if one state after another shafts non resident hunters it will continue to destroy our brotherhood as hunters and we will be more easily conquered by the anti hunters and others.

Arizona can do what it wants, but there will be consequences to hunters, both resident and non resident.

Me, myself, and I am dissapointed the way the whole thing has been put out there by the Game and Fish. I am talking about the lack of communication about the way things have changed.

I'll continue to hunt AZ, I will just get the calculator out and figure some numbers to get into some of those "meat" hunts.

Another thing, Bubba, I am a guy that got into archery for the sheer purpose of better hunting opportunites. I bought my bow and equipment months before ever hunting and have been in archery leagues and such, because the sport grew on me over 12 years ago. I just bought a muzzleloader just because I want to put in for muzzleloader hunts.

So, in summary information, communication, that is what we need. AZ Game and Fish should have communicated to the non residents what Don Martin has to us all.

Sincerely,
Bill
PS, yes I have a hunting addiction problem, and do not hate me because I am a Californian, I am an AMERICAN !!!!!!!
 
Of course we cannot all hunt trophy game out of state at will. And everyone will never be happy. To me being honest and forthright like Don Martin is the way to go and if state fish and game agencies would do the same it would be great.

Nevada is extremely tough to draw. Much tougher than Arizona, but their regulations and drawing statistics and all are INFINITELY MORE CLEAR than Arizona. And yes I apply there as well.

I do not see people that upset about Nevada, except about their slim to non or mostly non chances of drawing.

Bill
 
Bill,
I'm not attacking what you're saying,you have some good points. I just want to make it clear that I don't have a problem with most non-residents who apply. I too think what AZ is doing is deceptive and unfair. What I do have a problem with is the non-residents who think AZ owes them something. Those who think that because it is Federal Land, they should be able to get a tag at the snap of their fingers. That because they have applied more than 5 years they have a right to a tag. Well guess what, I have NEVER had an AZ bull elk tag, and I have been applying for one since I was 10 years old (17years). Does AZ owe me something? No.

Do the majority of non-residents apply for premium hunts? I doubt it. I know there is a lot, however I don't know that there is a majority. I still don't think its right for AZ to do what they are doing, however, if it only affects a smaller portion of the non-residents, it will be harder to fight.
 
I think some of you AZ residents are a little big headed, do I want to hunt in AZ? sure I do, you have some great hunting but you don't have the only quality hunting in the west. I don't meat hunt in any state and calling non res hunters spoiled because we don't want to drive for two days to shoot a dink is unfair. I'm thinking if I do draw I might rent a rig with AZ plates so I don't get my tires slashed if that's the way you guys feel about non res hunters. we can live with the 10% cap but people should be told the facts about the points if they're going to play the game and thanks to a few folks like Don maybe they will, I'll keep playing but I know the what I'm up against.
 
the facts are being told. nothing deceptive about it. It is simple, 10% cap and 20% of tags go to those with max points. Does not take a rocket scientist! Where is the deception. So the non residents that have been putting in for a long time will have better odds and those just starting will have to put in for a while with slim to no odds. Sounds clear, fair, and just as good or better than other western states. It amazes me how something is started over nothing because it's the popular DEBATE. Human nature loves to just whine and debate. This isn't unfair. Look at it logically.
 
I think what you are seeing is some AZ residents that are sick of the BS that has happended over the past year. There is nothing wrong with 10 percent. Utah does that or less, as well as nevada california and other states across the west. What is the big deal. The problem is everyone wants a tag north of the big ditch, well that is not reality. Look at NR odds on the paunsaugaunt, and other premium hunts, they are horrible, but that is reality. By the way, no one should hunt the drought stricken bulls and bucks this year in az anyways, they will all be too small.
 
Recap:
10% cap on non-res
20% set aside for max points
$113.50 fee on non-res for slim chance at drawing.
It's about time!
 
Huntindude,
Nobody ever said we have the only quality hunting in the west. But why don't the non-residents complain about the other states that limit non-residents just as bad or worse? Nobody called you spoiled, but you do not deserve to get a tag before those of us, non-resident and resident, who have been waiting for years. Why would somebody slash your tires? Nobody has said they hate non-residents. What we hate is non-residents who think they are owed something. Read my previous post. Nobody is telling you to come over here and shoot a dink either. There are huge bulls in EVERY unit that has elk. I know a guy who shot a 380" bull in a unit that has only been elk hunted for 6 years. I know another guy who shot a 200" Muley in a unit that nobody would ever think would be there. I have seen a lot of big deer came out of AZ this year, most in units that are not consider to be "top" units. Re-read some of the posts above, nobody is telling you to apply for a unit that doesn't have good animals. Just because they are not mentioned in every article does not mean they are not good. You say we need to tell you the facts, well we have. The facts are, if you apply for other than the top 5 or 6 units, you have a good chance at drawing a tag every few years, and seeing quality animals. It takes a little work, but it sounds like some non-residents don't even want to do that. You want fair? Then why don't you start hammering on the other western states that have quality animals and limit non-residents. Until you decide to do so, give AZ a break.

And as bubbas said, the facts are being told. It is not our fault if most people don't take the time to read the regulations and figure things out.
 
The bottom line on this is that the NR has a choice of playing the money game or not playing the money game with the states that require a fee for bonus points, or purchase a seperate license prior to drawing and not getting your license fee back when you fail to draw a tag.
I made the decision a long time ago not to play the game and allow any state to scam me out of my hard earned dollars. If a person decides to play the game, I feel they do not have any excuse to belly ache about not drawing a tag. If enough NR would do this, the states that have been ripping them off will change the rules in order to get the higher fees that a NR pays for a tag.
I only will submit fees to a state that will refund my money if I fail to draw, minus a small fee for processing.
I do not like the ways that some states treat NR unfairly when taking their money, but then again a NR should not be put ahead in line for tags over resident hunters just because he is willing to spend more money. I would like to see all good hunting states give the resident 80-85% of the tags, and NR get the balance on a fair random drawing. Any hunter, resident or non-resident should have their money refunded if they fail to draw a tag, minus a 10-15 dollar processing fee.
But this will never happen due to greed and people being stupid enought to allow a state to cheat them out of their money.

RELH
 
LAST EDITED ON May-05-06 AT 12:22PM (MST)[p]sremim, you are right on the money. You see a wrong as do other honest, intelligent Arizona hunters. The wrong is that the new 20% max point draw has pretty much turned the draws for non residents into a Preference point system for much of the premium hunts. You do not know exactly which ones though.

I did some checking today and an archery bull "meat" hunt I'd like to go on had about 10% non residents draw last year, the year without the cap. However, almost all the tags that went to non residents went to those in the max point draw, not all buy say 65 percent did.

I did not really put the two and two together about the 20% max point draw and the 10% non resident cap until it came out in all these forums, this one here as well as others. I did not really get it until I looked a little deeper. I am a registered Civil Engineer in CA, with a MS in Engineering, although not the sharpest stick in the shed, hahaha. I would imagine many, many guys are going to be peeing their money down a rat hole on those rifle rut hunts and mule deer hunts north of the River. If I did not read these forums and was not as savy as I am I would not get it.

That is why Don, Chris, yourself and other considerate, honest, hunters with compassion for others are saying what you are saying.

To be honest, if AZ wants to limit NR to 10%, 20% or none that is really up to them. There are other states that do not allow NRs in their hunts. I can see how you guys feel you do not want the hords of out of states pummeling your heards, or making it such that you cannot hunt your state. Sorta like the flood that is happening on your southern border as well as mine.

What is nice and great is to leave a little slice for us out of state guys, which you are doing.

What is wrong is having a system that is confusing and set up in such a way that an average non resident hunter cannot really figure out what his odds are. I am not saying it is a conspiracy, most likely beauracracy as usual.

The thing I do not like to hear is SOME AZ residents say, or I think I hear them say if you don't like the system do not apply. Well, dad said, if you do not like something do something about it. Or no one has a gun to your head do they? Many of you Az guys are doing some about the mess.

Well, I can see if people just do not want to accept AZ 10% cap and keep complaining about that, maybe that is complaining. If others want AZ to explain how the whole systems works and maybe add a caution about putting in for north of the River Buck hunts and premium bull elk hunts, that most non residents that will draw will be those with max points. Hey, that is it, if AZ Game and Fish wrote on the regs somewhere, "Please note with the 20% max point draw that non residents with less than max points will most likely not draw premium bull elk hunts as well as premium north of the River mule deer buck hunts. If that was thrown in there, the non residents would know what they are getting themselves into. I can see why it is not done, they either do not care, want the money, or cannot figure out how to do it, or figure writting that in the regs would only create more questions and concerns.

There is one thing for sure, ignorance is bliss.

Anyway, most of you AZ guys are great. I feel a kinda kin to AZ. My grandparents lived in Sun City in 1960 til my granddad passed away and my grandmother moved to a rest home in Texas. I still have relatives in the Phoenix area. I have spent lots of time in AZ. I think it is a fabulous state, outdoorswise. I am not particularly fond of Phoenix, but the hunters there are great and helpful to me. The hunting possibilities are fantastic.

When I went to the commmission meeting there a couple weeks ago, I was very impressed with the guys there, both hunters and game and fish people. The AZ game and fish agency has managed their game populations pretty well, as far as I can see. Something other government agencies could benefit from.

Another thing, to be honest, most of the hunts I have put in for there was about 10% non residents putting in, so the cap does not really affect the areas I was putting in for. That 20% max point cap now does.

One thing to remember is we are all hunters. We all have a HUGE thing in common an addiction to hunting. At least the guys here on MM.

Cheers
Bill
 
I don't know anything whats going on in the states really....

BUT what I do know is that there is a British Columbia resident who holds US citizenship. He puts in for Arizona elk as a non-resident and he has been drawn 2 times in the last 10 years or so with the last elk taken just last fall ...... a monster bull !! He also took a great bull the first time he got drawn.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-05-06 AT 03:14PM (MST)[p]An excellent post by Bill in SD

I would beg to disagree with those who say that the situation in not confusing. At the RMEF elk camp in Reno a few months ago, I brought this subject up with several well know authorities on Arizona elk hunting, and got different responses ranging from,
?the 10% NR cap will apply to the 20% pass point tags as well?
to ?I have no idea?
to ?yup, that is the way it will be?.
The state of Arizona can and should set their regulations as they feel fit, and those of us who want to hunt there, both Res & NR, need to understand these regulations. I do see a need for Arizona to explain this better, because thousands of NR will apply this year, sending in their license fees and thinking they have a ?chance? when in fact they have zero chance at drawing the tag they have applied for. The state of Arizona will collect hundreds of thousands of dollars from these people, they should know what they are getting for their money.
The days of ?I drew the strip with no points? are over.

thanks Mr. Martin
 
Can any of you AZ guys fill us in on USO's current condition ?? Has all this bad PR hurt them ? Are they still at it big time ??

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
I called AZ Game & Fish today asking for data that can assist me in my decision on units to apply. I was told there is not a list broken down for bonus point totals by Res/Non Res and if I want detailed drawing information, that would be another $50.00.

AZ has every right to regulate as they please...just get the facts out so the customer can understand what there buying.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-06-06 AT 00:21AM (MST)[p]Guys:

I'm sorry for creating all this brouhaha about this situation, and it is obvious from some of the posts that folks finally got the point I was making.

The 10% rule in my opinion is fair. The 20% set aside, which I supported, has come up with these unintended consequences that if my calculations are correct, virtuately eliminates the NR's who have less than max bonus points from an opportunity to draw a tag in those premium deer units on the Strip and on early bull rifle elk hunts.

I spoke with several department people today about this situation. I do have some data that is enlightening, and I believe that they understand that this MAY be a problem and will be looking at addressing it at some point down the road.

Let me make a prediction. G&F will look at what happens this year on the draw, and if my calculations are correct, you MAY see something brought forward in the future to correct this situation either by a rule change OR by a disclaimer in the reg books and on-line, like one fellow posted, that will say that simply IF you don't have max points then you can't draw one of those premium deer or rifle elk tags.

Kind of like buyer beware, which is ok by me. At least folks know what they are getting into.

Anyway, I'm glad to know that some of the folks at AZ G&F are looking at this and if they determine it is a real situation, after this year's draw, that SOMETHING will be done...

Don Martin
 
Going from 10% to 20% in the max point pool did exactly what it was intended to do -- It got the flow of those max point holders through the clogged system of trying to draw a tag be it a so called premium tag or not, and be they resident or non-resident. It went from a drip to a little trickel, and 80% of all permits are still available to the applying public and a guy still has a chance to get a tag with 0 points. I like a system that somwhat rewards persistence and dedication, and I think this system does that, and I would hate to see the max pool go back to the drip of 10%.
 
Don I was wondering if you had any figures on how many Res. vs Non-Res there are in the max bonus point pools. Iv'e tried to get them and G&F won't return my calls. I'm a Non-Res with max deer points.
 
If you have max deer bonus points (9) then you are in a pool with about 399 others. There are more Non-residents in this pool than residents. In the next level (8) there are 1,243 of us..

For elk, its a tad different. The max is 17 and there are just two sportsmen. Then in the 16 bonus point pool there are 21. 81 sportsmen have 15 points, while 121 have 14 bonus points. 226 have 13 bonus points, while 325 have 12 points.

Non-residents are more represented in these top elk numbers than residents.

Hope this helps.

I'm not sure how many will be taken out of the max deer pool this year, but would expect 25-30 non-residents COULD draw if you lump in all the premium hunts (12AW Late (150)-12B Late (75)-13A (40)-13B (75) that I think those in the max pool will apply for.

If you have the max for deer, you're in the game. Those with less than max (non-residents) will need to settle for a lesser units (units 9,10, 16A & 18A have a few boomers), OR just sit back and wait for a lot of years..

Same scenario for premium early rifle elk tags if you are a non-resident with less than say 15 points...

I can't wait to see the draw lists (you have to buy them from G&F) and see just exactly how it shakes out this year.

One thing is for sure. There is no "one size fits all" scenario that will please everyone when it comes to distributing tags for hunts where there are a heck of a lot more applicants than tags available.

Don Martin
 
I spoke too soon. I just got a call back from a nice female at Az.G&F. She told me there were 223 Non-Res max bonus point holders for deer. That puts my odds at about 15% for this year and if things don't change close to 100% in the next 10 years. I'll get to hunt the strip before I'm 65!
 
Don my hat is off to you, I think it was you on bowsite I gave a hard time for ingnoring this - I figured outfitters would not want anyone to know this, if most NR apps really understood this they would give up - thus less clients.

Any way you are right, and great job posting it, I know for a fact you will get heck for it!

Also I believe it was me who realized this and researched it and began posting about it, a few others had thought it but I believe online no one discussed it until I began to explain my theory. What I ma getting at is it was discussed A LOT, and many investigated it and bottom line is it is true. This will not happen 100% of the time but in premium hunts it will occur nearly every time. One person who works in the draw section had lunch with whoever is in charge of the draw (forget name) and explained my theory, and he paused, and said it never occured to him, but he beleived it would be true!

Don is right, there needs to be a slight change to the draw, NR build points far faster then res and will always draw 10% of there tags in the max pnt rounds in most units. thus the NR quota is reached before anyone without max pnts can go for a tag.

Funny I had a guy at Cabelas TAGS get wind of my theory and called me, he was a great guy and knew a lot but even after trying to explain it to him he never got it and dismissed me, I feel sorry for guys wasting $$$ on their service!

Also if you doubt it there is proof, when NR 10% capps were gone NR pulled nearly all the max pnt tags, so it happened.

I put a lot of threads on bowsite about it where you can read further.

Again DonM good job and hopefully someone can get something going to change this unplanned situation.
 
For guys who think that this will not happen, look at it this way (besides the proof form the past 2 draws) NR make up about 1/2 the apps, but get 1/10 the tags, clearly we will accumulate points way faster (look at CO, they used to give NR 40% of tags and most hunts took NR far more points then res)!

Thus NR will have the most points, all NR have to do is draw HLAF the max pnts tags, which considering we have the most points by far, will, and has, happened.
 
I must add I am glad some others have come around to realize my theory will come to pass.

When I first proposed it I had a ton of guys saying I was stupid, they drew in the past with few points, etc etc. Most guys said I was nuts, A few tried to understand but did not, and a very few really sat down and thought about it, and checked some numbers, made some calls, etc, every one of them realized my theory was correct! It was annoying being called a dummy for days because many could not understand this theory.

Heck I was excited - I realized a draw phenominom that many had no clues about and attracted countless thousands in license fees from NR thinking they might get to hunt AZ for a good rifle elk tag with no points!

Again the bottom lin is NR have to pay $140 for almost no chance at a rifle bull tag. I go archery and I am looking at very low end hunts and figure it will take me 8 years to draw - and that is the very best a NR can hope for!

Man Iwish tihs sites hads spellchekc!
 
Hey Don, where have you been!!?!?!? Keep up the good work.

You know you could type in your responses in MSword and then spell check them and then cut and past them on the thread

What is your background? I mean education, and career? It is really refreshing to have some techno hunters on the forums, hahaha

Take care
Bill
 
Hey Don, you know when you came up with your theory people did not want to hear it. My first reaction was, I did not want to hear it because it was negative and then I thought I did not apply for the premium hunts, so it would not affect me.

People like to "kill" the messenger of bad news. Others like life simple and prefer not to be aware of things. Ignorance is pure bliss. I think the more intelligent a person is the more unhappy that person is, or can be.

Take care
Bill
 
Don and Don,

You guys are right. The only guys who will argue with you are guys that cannot pass 6th grade math. While a great system for max point holders, it will need to change to allow some chance to those with fewer points.

On a side note, I am amazed at the number of non-residents who have taken the hunter ed course in AZ to earn a BP. Since I have been in from the beginning and only have 8 deer points, I assume those with 9 must have taken the course.

I still will apply because I believe they will change things once they look at the results of this years draw.
 
JRBCO:

YOU are one of those guys who should have made every effort to get that Hunter Ed permanent bonus point this year!

My Hunter Ed team did a NR class on Saturday with 25 in attendance. Only three of those had 8 bonus points for deer. Those three are the ones that will really benefit right now from the class as they will be in the max bonus point pool this year and thus be eligible to draw one of the 7 tags available in 13B or in any of the other units that are considered "premium" by me and others that are located north of the ditch.

Ours was the last class you could take this year and get the point in time to help on this year's draw.

We do two NR classes a year, one on the second Saturday in January (really appeals to NR archery javelina hunters who come in take the clas then go hunt pigs for a few days) and one in late April, early May. We also do two resident classes (March-August) each year.

I do know other NR classes (supplemental classes is what they are called)are held in Arizona, contact Tristanna Bickford at G&F 602-789-3241 for locations and dates..

So, let's do the math, about 400 people are out there with max deer bonus points (9) this year. Of those about 226 are non-residents. Assuming (bad thing I guess) that all of these folks are applying for premium tags again, I'll guess between 20-25 non-residents draw this year.

No doubt residents in the max pool will draw more tags as they (we)are not only eligble to draw 100% of the set aside tags (but statistical probabilities say they (we) won't), but they (we)are eligble for ALL of the remaining permits that are left after the set aside drawing is done. If the 10% limit for NR's has been reached, then all NR's (including those remaining in the max bonus point pool)are ineligble to get any of the other remaining tags. If somehow, not all NR tags are issued in that 20% set aside, then yes, a NR will have a chance. (wink-wink).

Complicated issue no doubt.

Now these numbers may be slightly off as there was another non-resident class held in Phoenix this weekend and I'm sure there are some of those folks who are now in the max bonus point pool.

I think this gives you an idea of what might happen this year if you carefully analyze the situation.

Don Martin
 
Bill exactly the same job as you (if I remember right) civil eng, PE in Ohio!

I enjoy the math and part of the fun of applying is looking at the numbers, doesn't seem to help me much but still fun!
 
Don,
Do you know of any September archery bull units where the the number of NR max point holders who applied last year does not exceed the 10% set-aside for NR? Is this unit by unit by bonus point info available in the $75 data book?

Doug~RR
 
There is no 10% "setaside for NR applicants". NR applicants can draw "up to 10% of the available permits" in any unit.
 
So what your saying is that it may be NO more than 10% and possibly could be as low as 0%? NR's taking it in the dark shadows again. Brokeback Mtn. " Its a beautiful love story."
 
Well, the way I understand it the NRs could get up to 10%. But the 10% is not a guarantee. It is a cap, or a maximum, the 10% that is.

Bill
 
So I spoke with someone at G&F and they explained to me that non-residents will get their 20% for max points from their 10% total. Is this what everyone's math is saying? Because if this is the case, non-residents with 0 points can draw.
 
That is what I thought but one of the outfitters here in AZ is saying different. It really becomes a math issue. Is the 20% before the 10% or after?

If it is after, then for example the late (Nov 24 - Dec 3)12A East hunt that has a total of 50 tags would have a max of 5 (10%) going to NR. Of those 5, 1 or 20% would go to the NR with the most points. If there were multiple NR with the same number of most points then it would go to the 1 highest among them in the draw. This would leave 4 other tags available for the general NR pool and it is quite possible someone with 0 points could draw out.
 
This is begining to sound like the NEA and the CTA and their fuzzy math. Did you know that 2 + 2 equals 5? The "lets feel good" about little Johnnys attempt to guess the correct answer is an attempt by left wing zealouts to substandardize our education. At least he was close so we will call it a ground rule double because Johnny has deep emotional problems and we surely dont wont to make him feel less than adequate.

I really wonder if the AZ G&F knows the correct answer and soultion to this crazy unlogical fiasco.
 
ASUCoues,

They say they will draw the 20% max points first, then continue with a random draw for the remaining 80%. Using your example of 12A East hunt with 50 tags, they will draw 10 tags (20%) for the max point holders. If there are an equal number of residents and nonresidents applying with max points, then you would assume that 5 would go to residents and 5 to nonresidents. Since nonresidents can only draw 5 total tags for the unit (10%), they are done and no one else can draw.

That is the problem with the system as it currently stands.
 
So how is the math different azbiggame?

It is pretty simple. 20% set aside for max point holders and up to 10% total for NR.

Although it is not what is being released by AZ G&F, they could hold the NR to 10% of the max pool as well as 10% overall.

Using AZCoues example, this would only allow up to 1 tag to a NR with max points. That would mean that if they drew more than 1 NR for the max pool set-aside, the rest would get rejected and thrown back into the hat with everyone else, despite the fact that the overall 10% NR cap has not been met.

I really don't care what they do as long as they are up front with everyone. I honestly think in this case, they never considered the consequences and simply did not realize how this would play out with the changes they made.
 
JRBCO:

You are absolutely right about the draw and how the 20% set aside will in most cases, take all of the 10% of premium deer/premium elk that are allowed to go to NR's under state law.

Don't worry I'll explain all this to Bruce when we go striper fishing on June 3.....

Bottom line, like I've been saying, if you aren't in that max bonus point pool, then either apply for bonus point only OR one of the less favorable units if you just want to go hunting which I got to believe most WON'T do as that is the reason they have gobs of bonus points right now. If they were interested in a forkie hunt or a late bull hunt, they most likely would have drawn that kind of tag in 2004-2005 when the draw was wide open (unless they have bad luck like me).

Don Martin
 
I guess I still don't understand how non-residents without max points wont draw when the guy I talked to said they will give non-residents 20% to max point holders of their 10%. Not let them take their 10% from the 20% pot. Now I don't know how that will work when non-residents only get up to 10%, and not a guaranteed 10%. With that being said, I still don't think anyone can say with certainty what will happen with the draw, or how many points non-residents will need. Also, if it does happen the way some of you think it will, I don't see game and fish allowing it to continue without making it some sort of preference point game, and not a bonus point game. Just my thoughts.
 
Scott:

You need to speak to John Bloom in the draw section at AZ G&F.

You're just confused on how the draw will work.

I'll try one more time to explain.

There will be a draw for the group with max bonus points that is done FIRST before any other draws are done. That is where the 20% set aside is done.

According to Mr. Bloom, the NR "up to 10% cap" on tags can apply and the full 10%--if it happens, on NR tags, can be taken out of this draw. Statistictly it probably will, as there are more NR's than residents in both the deer and elk max bonus point pool, and if it does, then the other NR's who have applied for tags (including those in the max bonus point pool) will have no chance to get one.

For AZ residents, we will ALL get into the draw for the remaining (60) tags, no matter how many bonus we do or don't have. Our odds of course are determined by the number of chances we had to draw a low number.

That's it in a nut shell, hope it helps.

With over 5,000 people applying for deer tags in Unit 13B, I wouldn't hold my breath at getting one of those..

Don Martin
 
Don,

You have provided clear, excellent information. I for one, tip my hat to you.
Bill in SD, you have also provided well thought out, insightful comments.
It is always amazing to see the jealousy and animosity that hunting tags can stir amongst hunters. I have no current stake in the AZ drawing fiasco. I have been fortunate to draw some premium hunts in other states, and am able to fill all of my available vacation time hunting. Yes, I would love to hunt in AZ some day, and a premium unit would be great.Of course everyone wants the same thing. Not having max bonus points, that seems to be less than a remote possibility under the existing system. A fair, open process is what hunters deserve, and the states should be obligated to provide. No one really expects to draw every tag they apply for, and no one really expects the states to hide the facts. A little digging for information is always needed, but out right deceit must be stopped.
I agree (I believe) with both Don and Bill in SD. I don't think that AZ necessarily intended their current process to exclude (0% chasnce)those without max points from most of the very best units. There are unintended consequences to almost every government action. Having become aware of this issue, it needs to be addressed. It sounds like from Don's last post that it may be addressed in the near future. Excellent news.
Thanks, Don.

Bill
 

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