Expo Tags Article
- Thread starter Hawkeye
- Start date
>Top, as I go back threw
>threads on the statement 30
>percent better than 70 I
>have not seen it used
>except by the non Lakers
>of saw and all I
>found is it started by
>someone saying of let's see
>30% better the 70%.
>Saw didn't say it.
>Your the expert on the
>net, show me where I
>am wrong. Second not
>trying to slander reef Mr
>allan. At the wildlife
>board meeting in utah, at
>the audit of conservation tags,
>All groups, including rmef kept
>10% that from the
>dark audit. Not a
>guess or slander, just a
>statement given at the audit
>of conservation tags.
> Not trying
>to be smart but stating
>an observation topgun. Can't
>prove it, just the statement
>at the audit.
Is "saw" supposed to mean SFW and what is a "dark" audit and what are non Lakers? First off, I have not made any comment about 30%-70% that you are referencing, but several other people have. They are referencing the fact that after many years of the two organizations not accounting for over 8 million dollars taken in from the $5 application fees SFW/MDF finally a year or two ago agreed to give back 30% of the $5 application fee (referred to as roughly $1.50) for on the ground work while still keeping 70% (roughly $3.50) of the money for whatever they want to spend it on just like the 10% they are allowed to keep when they auction off a tag. The contention is that upon the start of the Expo the entire $5 application fee for each raffle ticket was to go back on the ground. I believe what you are referring to when you say RMEF was not giving back the 10% for an auction tag just like the other organizations would be true up until the last year or two when they said they would start giving back 100%. Therefore, in the short time span since they stated they would do that I doubt that there would have even been an audit to show you're correct. I'm in your shoes on this one though in that I can't prove it and have to take the word it's been done just like you say you are regarding SFW. Fair enough? In other words, I think we need to agree that neither of us can prove one way or the other if they have or haven't. I can say that RMEF is very up front with the money coming in and going out with the open audits done by an independent auditor/CPA firm that are available to anyone (see the other post on this thread with the latest one) while we sure can't say that of SFW.
>threads on the statement 30
>percent better than 70 I
>have not seen it used
>except by the non Lakers
>of saw and all I
>found is it started by
>someone saying of let's see
>30% better the 70%.
>Saw didn't say it.
>Your the expert on the
>net, show me where I
>am wrong. Second not
>trying to slander reef Mr
>allan. At the wildlife
>board meeting in utah, at
>the audit of conservation tags,
>All groups, including rmef kept
>10% that from the
>dark audit. Not a
>guess or slander, just a
>statement given at the audit
>of conservation tags.
> Not trying
>to be smart but stating
>an observation topgun. Can't
>prove it, just the statement
>at the audit.
Is "saw" supposed to mean SFW and what is a "dark" audit and what are non Lakers? First off, I have not made any comment about 30%-70% that you are referencing, but several other people have. They are referencing the fact that after many years of the two organizations not accounting for over 8 million dollars taken in from the $5 application fees SFW/MDF finally a year or two ago agreed to give back 30% of the $5 application fee (referred to as roughly $1.50) for on the ground work while still keeping 70% (roughly $3.50) of the money for whatever they want to spend it on just like the 10% they are allowed to keep when they auction off a tag. The contention is that upon the start of the Expo the entire $5 application fee for each raffle ticket was to go back on the ground. I believe what you are referring to when you say RMEF was not giving back the 10% for an auction tag just like the other organizations would be true up until the last year or two when they said they would start giving back 100%. Therefore, in the short time span since they stated they would do that I doubt that there would have even been an audit to show you're correct. I'm in your shoes on this one though in that I can't prove it and have to take the word it's been done just like you say you are regarding SFW. Fair enough? In other words, I think we need to agree that neither of us can prove one way or the other if they have or haven't. I can say that RMEF is very up front with the money coming in and going out with the open audits done by an independent auditor/CPA firm that are available to anyone (see the other post on this thread with the latest one) while we sure can't say that of SFW.
Desert, I don't know of anyone who is a official representative of saw on the forum. You keep asking us to produce but officially we can not produce your records. What you can do is go to the group saw and ask them. They are the official people that have access to what you want. No one in this thread on an official representative.
desertpointbrian
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,347
>Desert, I don't know of
>anyone who is a official
>representative of saw on the
>forum. You keep asking
>us to produce but officially
>we can not produce your
>records. What you can
>do is go to the
>group saw and ask them.
> They are the official
>people that have access to
>what you want. No
>one in this thread on
>an official representative.
Birdman I have tried through sfw they absolutely will not release anything. It is very obvious they feel they are above being transparent on the matter. And it is no body's business. As far as representatives they should think about having you do so. because even though I do not agree with any of your defense for them you are at least logical. I tried explain to them if you have nothing to hide let it be known prove the public wrong but obviously that is not the case or they would not let their product/name be drug through the mud like this. It's simple if innocent of squandering money prove it.
>anyone who is a official
>representative of saw on the
>forum. You keep asking
>us to produce but officially
>we can not produce your
>records. What you can
>do is go to the
>group saw and ask them.
> They are the official
>people that have access to
>what you want. No
>one in this thread on
>an official representative.
Birdman I have tried through sfw they absolutely will not release anything. It is very obvious they feel they are above being transparent on the matter. And it is no body's business. As far as representatives they should think about having you do so. because even though I do not agree with any of your defense for them you are at least logical. I tried explain to them if you have nothing to hide let it be known prove the public wrong but obviously that is not the case or they would not let their product/name be drug through the mud like this. It's simple if innocent of squandering money prove it.
Not saying it is you desert, but some have been very ignorant and demanding g. I guess it is all the way people have been asking and demanding. They do not feel like answering.
Again, myself and others posting on here do not have access to the information. Some knowledge that can not be proven, but not able to get you what you want. Sorry I can't do more.
Again, myself and others posting on here do not have access to the information. Some knowledge that can not be proven, but not able to get you what you want. Sorry I can't do more.
>Not saying it is you desert,
>but some have been very
>ignorant and demanding g.
>I guess it is all
>the way people have been
>asking and demanding. They
>do not feel like answering.
>
> Again, myself and
>others posting on here do
>not have access to the
>information. Some knowledge that
>can not be proven, but
>not able to get you
>what you want. Sorry
>I can't do more.
Now some are ignorant and demanding, huh?! None of us would be the least bit "ignorant" if your organization showed the slightest bit of transparency on the one thing they aren't and that is the use of the $5 application fee for those 200 tags that are the public trust. People, therefore, should be able to demand exactly what they are with no "pretty please" put in there! I really don't know why these threads get going because none of you that are SFW members that are on this website can speak for the SFW and because you are all so enamored with the Don and what he has built it doesn't appear to matter how polite people are. Look at how polite Hawkeye has been for a long time working on this and he's got nothing but stonewalled from the getgo. Now it's sort of like the term, "the gloves have come off" so please don't blame anyone but the SFW itself for bringing this to where it is right now.
>but some have been very
>ignorant and demanding g.
>I guess it is all
>the way people have been
>asking and demanding. They
>do not feel like answering.
>
> Again, myself and
>others posting on here do
>not have access to the
>information. Some knowledge that
>can not be proven, but
>not able to get you
>what you want. Sorry
>I can't do more.
Now some are ignorant and demanding, huh?! None of us would be the least bit "ignorant" if your organization showed the slightest bit of transparency on the one thing they aren't and that is the use of the $5 application fee for those 200 tags that are the public trust. People, therefore, should be able to demand exactly what they are with no "pretty please" put in there! I really don't know why these threads get going because none of you that are SFW members that are on this website can speak for the SFW and because you are all so enamored with the Don and what he has built it doesn't appear to matter how polite people are. Look at how polite Hawkeye has been for a long time working on this and he's got nothing but stonewalled from the getgo. Now it's sort of like the term, "the gloves have come off" so please don't blame anyone but the SFW itself for bringing this to where it is right now.
desertpointbrian
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,347
Very true topgun if they had nothing to hide they could have squashed this along time ago.
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,014
The leadership of SFW, MDF and the DWR do not post on these threads but they do follow them. I've had enough conversations with those folks to know they are very aware of these threads. They no longer join in these discussions because there is no legitimate response to the lack of transparency other than "we don't want to do it."
Those of you who have been around a while can remember when Troy, John and Don used to join our discussions. I even remember when Jim Karpowitz jumped into the fray. Now they leave it up to tristate to articulate their position.
-Hawkeye-
Those of you who have been around a while can remember when Troy, John and Don used to join our discussions. I even remember when Jim Karpowitz jumped into the fray. Now they leave it up to tristate to articulate their position.
-Hawkeye-
javihammer
Active Member
- Messages
- 135
I have read every post on this thread. Since there are some nuggets of gold I would like to help direct the newbies to the good stuff.
I generally avoid the Tristate and Topgun bickering. No offense to Topgun, he means well but new information is what I look for and I don't see much of that. I skip Tristates posts for the same reason everyone else does.
As for the SFW supporters, 2Lumpy seems like a nice guy with a colorful imagination. A guy you would probably buy a beer for at the bar. He claims to be open minded but usually ends his posts with a "move along, there is nothing to see here" blind devotion to SFW statement. His son Muley73 also sings the SFW corp line, albeit in a less colorful and more confrontational manner. Birdman claims to know everything and nothing about SFW at the same time. His thread contributions are entertaining for their sheer lack of any actual substance. His ability to use so many words and say absolutely nothing is pure art.
But despite the fluff this thread is loaded with excellent information from professionals that know their stuff.
If you want a great overview of the facts, read every single post that Hawkeye has on this thread. He is a LAWYER, and he works and lives in Utah. His dedication and tenacity on this issue is amazing.
Another highlight was post #46. An actual CPA provided some information about what is included in a real audit and ramifications for failing specific areas of that audit.
And as someone that deals in procurements and contracts, I am amazed at the shear disregard to protect against the appearance of conflicts of interest. Even if there is no actual conflict most organizations take great care to setup bidders conferences to ensure bidders are aware of RFP weighting and level of detail expectations. These things are done to protect against the appearance of conflicts, but in the case of this RFP there are ACTUAL conflicts of interest. Either someone in the DWR is grossly incompetent on procurements or there was a deliberate attempt to rig this thing.
Also, someone on this thread mentioned that many of the vendors at the expo hardly qualified as outdoor vendors. Lots of hats and t-shirts, foreign outfitters with multiple booths, candles...swap meet kind of stuff. I wonder if the economist that forecasted the economic benefits of the expo built his model around a local swap meet or assumed there would be significant participation from out of state businesses. Maybe a new economist should update the model.
I also find it puzzling that so many people are only focused on the % return of raffle tag dollars when these tags generate so many other income streams for the host (like tickets sales, concessions etc...). Why aren't Utahans asking for a cut of that action. And is SFW bound to some kind of government procurement standards for subcontractors or is part of the good ol boys network like the consulting fees are? With average Joe hunters losing out on the actual 200 raflle tags, and Utah taxpayers losing out on a big part of the tax basis, shouldnt the host be required to adhere to some procurement standard and transparency for subcontractor selection?
And finally, SFW posts a list of the expo exhibitors on their website. I check that list before I buy any outdoor gear. That means I havent bought a Hoyt or Browning product in 5 years. And Cabelas lost my business when they asked me to donate my change to conservation and then told me it was going to SFW. I also find it mind-boggling when a guy posts a rant about SFW and the expo and then admits to buying a couple raffle tickets because "you cant win if you don't play". Those are the same guys that drop $200 at the strip club tipping 18 year olds and then come home and give their 18 year old daughter a hug goodnight. They are empty and lack conviction in my opinion.
Ryan
I generally avoid the Tristate and Topgun bickering. No offense to Topgun, he means well but new information is what I look for and I don't see much of that. I skip Tristates posts for the same reason everyone else does.
As for the SFW supporters, 2Lumpy seems like a nice guy with a colorful imagination. A guy you would probably buy a beer for at the bar. He claims to be open minded but usually ends his posts with a "move along, there is nothing to see here" blind devotion to SFW statement. His son Muley73 also sings the SFW corp line, albeit in a less colorful and more confrontational manner. Birdman claims to know everything and nothing about SFW at the same time. His thread contributions are entertaining for their sheer lack of any actual substance. His ability to use so many words and say absolutely nothing is pure art.
But despite the fluff this thread is loaded with excellent information from professionals that know their stuff.
If you want a great overview of the facts, read every single post that Hawkeye has on this thread. He is a LAWYER, and he works and lives in Utah. His dedication and tenacity on this issue is amazing.
Another highlight was post #46. An actual CPA provided some information about what is included in a real audit and ramifications for failing specific areas of that audit.
And as someone that deals in procurements and contracts, I am amazed at the shear disregard to protect against the appearance of conflicts of interest. Even if there is no actual conflict most organizations take great care to setup bidders conferences to ensure bidders are aware of RFP weighting and level of detail expectations. These things are done to protect against the appearance of conflicts, but in the case of this RFP there are ACTUAL conflicts of interest. Either someone in the DWR is grossly incompetent on procurements or there was a deliberate attempt to rig this thing.
Also, someone on this thread mentioned that many of the vendors at the expo hardly qualified as outdoor vendors. Lots of hats and t-shirts, foreign outfitters with multiple booths, candles...swap meet kind of stuff. I wonder if the economist that forecasted the economic benefits of the expo built his model around a local swap meet or assumed there would be significant participation from out of state businesses. Maybe a new economist should update the model.
I also find it puzzling that so many people are only focused on the % return of raffle tag dollars when these tags generate so many other income streams for the host (like tickets sales, concessions etc...). Why aren't Utahans asking for a cut of that action. And is SFW bound to some kind of government procurement standards for subcontractors or is part of the good ol boys network like the consulting fees are? With average Joe hunters losing out on the actual 200 raflle tags, and Utah taxpayers losing out on a big part of the tax basis, shouldnt the host be required to adhere to some procurement standard and transparency for subcontractor selection?
And finally, SFW posts a list of the expo exhibitors on their website. I check that list before I buy any outdoor gear. That means I havent bought a Hoyt or Browning product in 5 years. And Cabelas lost my business when they asked me to donate my change to conservation and then told me it was going to SFW. I also find it mind-boggling when a guy posts a rant about SFW and the expo and then admits to buying a couple raffle tickets because "you cant win if you don't play". Those are the same guys that drop $200 at the strip club tipping 18 year olds and then come home and give their 18 year old daughter a hug goodnight. They are empty and lack conviction in my opinion.
Ryan
desertpointbrian
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,347
>I have read every post on
>this thread. Since there are
>some nuggets of gold I
>would like to help direct
>the newbies to the good
>stuff.
>
>I generally avoid the Tristate and
>Topgun bickering. No offense to
>Topgun, he means well but
>new information is what I
>look for and I don't
>see much of that. I
>skip Tristates posts for the
>same reason everyone else does.
>
>
>As for the SFW supporters, 2Lumpy
>seems like a nice guy
>with a colorful imagination. A
>guy you would probably buy
>a beer for at the
>bar. He claims to be
>open minded but usually ends
>his posts with a "move
>along, there is nothing to
>see here" blind devotion to
>SFW statement. His son Muley73
>also sings the SFW corp
>line, albeit in a less
>colorful and more confrontational manner.
>Birdman claims to know everything
>and nothing about SFW at
>the same time. His thread
>contributions are entertaining for their
>sheer lack of any actual
>substance. His ability to use
>so many words and say
>absolutely nothing is pure art.
>
>
>But despite the fluff this thread
>is loaded with excellent information
>from professionals that know their
>stuff.
>
>If you want a great overview
>of the facts, read every
>single post that Hawkeye has
>on this thread. He is
>a LAWYER, and he works
>and lives in Utah. His
>dedication and tenacity on this
>issue is amazing.
>
>Another highlight was post #46. An
>actual CPA provided some information
>about what is included in
>a real audit and ramifications
>for failing specific areas of
>that audit.
>
>And as someone that deals in
>procurements and contracts, I am
>amazed at the shear disregard
>to protect against the appearance
>of conflicts of interest. Even
>if there is no actual
>conflict most organizations take great
>care to setup bidders conferences
>to ensure bidders are aware
>of RFP weighting and level
>of detail expectations. These things
>are done to protect against
>the appearance of conflicts, but
>in the case of this
>RFP there are ACTUAL conflicts
>of interest. Either someone in
>the DWR is grossly incompetent
>on procurements or there was
>a deliberate attempt to rig
>this thing.
>
>Also, someone on this thread mentioned
>that many of the vendors
>at the expo hardly qualified
>as outdoor vendors. Lots of
>hats and t-shirts, foreign outfitters
>with multiple booths, candles...swap meet
>kind of stuff. I wonder
>if the economist that forecasted
>the economic benefits of the
>expo built his model around
>a local swap meet or
>assumed there would be significant
>participation from out of state
>businesses. Maybe a new economist
>should update the model.
>
>I also find it puzzling that
>so many people are only
>focused on the % return
>of raffle tag dollars when
>these tags generate so many
>other income streams for the
>host (like tickets sales, concessions
>etc...). Why aren't Utahans asking
>for a cut of that
>action. And is SFW bound
>to some kind of government
>procurement standards for subcontractors or
>is part of the good
>ol boys network like the
>consulting fees are? With average
>Joe hunters losing out on
>the actual 200 raflle tags,
>and Utah taxpayers losing out
>on a big part of
>the tax basis, shouldnt the
>host be required to adhere
>to some procurement standard and
>transparency for subcontractor selection?
>
>
>And finally, SFW posts a list
>of the expo exhibitors on
>their website. I check that
>list before I buy any
>outdoor gear. That means I
>havent bought a Hoyt or
>Browning product in 5 years.
>And Cabelas lost my business
>when they asked me to
>donate my change to conservation
>and then told me it
>was going to SFW. I
>also find it mind-boggling when
>a guy posts a rant
>about SFW and the expo
>and then admits to buying
>a couple raffle tickets because
>"you cant win if you
>don't play". Those are the
>same guys that drop $200
>at the strip club tipping
>18 year olds and then
>come home and give their
>18 year old daughter a
>hug goodnight. They are empty
>and lack conviction in my
>opinion.
>
>Ryan
+1
>this thread. Since there are
>some nuggets of gold I
>would like to help direct
>the newbies to the good
>stuff.
>
>I generally avoid the Tristate and
>Topgun bickering. No offense to
>Topgun, he means well but
>new information is what I
>look for and I don't
>see much of that. I
>skip Tristates posts for the
>same reason everyone else does.
>
>
>As for the SFW supporters, 2Lumpy
>seems like a nice guy
>with a colorful imagination. A
>guy you would probably buy
>a beer for at the
>bar. He claims to be
>open minded but usually ends
>his posts with a "move
>along, there is nothing to
>see here" blind devotion to
>SFW statement. His son Muley73
>also sings the SFW corp
>line, albeit in a less
>colorful and more confrontational manner.
>Birdman claims to know everything
>and nothing about SFW at
>the same time. His thread
>contributions are entertaining for their
>sheer lack of any actual
>substance. His ability to use
>so many words and say
>absolutely nothing is pure art.
>
>
>But despite the fluff this thread
>is loaded with excellent information
>from professionals that know their
>stuff.
>
>If you want a great overview
>of the facts, read every
>single post that Hawkeye has
>on this thread. He is
>a LAWYER, and he works
>and lives in Utah. His
>dedication and tenacity on this
>issue is amazing.
>
>Another highlight was post #46. An
>actual CPA provided some information
>about what is included in
>a real audit and ramifications
>for failing specific areas of
>that audit.
>
>And as someone that deals in
>procurements and contracts, I am
>amazed at the shear disregard
>to protect against the appearance
>of conflicts of interest. Even
>if there is no actual
>conflict most organizations take great
>care to setup bidders conferences
>to ensure bidders are aware
>of RFP weighting and level
>of detail expectations. These things
>are done to protect against
>the appearance of conflicts, but
>in the case of this
>RFP there are ACTUAL conflicts
>of interest. Either someone in
>the DWR is grossly incompetent
>on procurements or there was
>a deliberate attempt to rig
>this thing.
>
>Also, someone on this thread mentioned
>that many of the vendors
>at the expo hardly qualified
>as outdoor vendors. Lots of
>hats and t-shirts, foreign outfitters
>with multiple booths, candles...swap meet
>kind of stuff. I wonder
>if the economist that forecasted
>the economic benefits of the
>expo built his model around
>a local swap meet or
>assumed there would be significant
>participation from out of state
>businesses. Maybe a new economist
>should update the model.
>
>I also find it puzzling that
>so many people are only
>focused on the % return
>of raffle tag dollars when
>these tags generate so many
>other income streams for the
>host (like tickets sales, concessions
>etc...). Why aren't Utahans asking
>for a cut of that
>action. And is SFW bound
>to some kind of government
>procurement standards for subcontractors or
>is part of the good
>ol boys network like the
>consulting fees are? With average
>Joe hunters losing out on
>the actual 200 raflle tags,
>and Utah taxpayers losing out
>on a big part of
>the tax basis, shouldnt the
>host be required to adhere
>to some procurement standard and
>transparency for subcontractor selection?
>
>
>And finally, SFW posts a list
>of the expo exhibitors on
>their website. I check that
>list before I buy any
>outdoor gear. That means I
>havent bought a Hoyt or
>Browning product in 5 years.
>And Cabelas lost my business
>when they asked me to
>donate my change to conservation
>and then told me it
>was going to SFW. I
>also find it mind-boggling when
>a guy posts a rant
>about SFW and the expo
>and then admits to buying
>a couple raffle tickets because
>"you cant win if you
>don't play". Those are the
>same guys that drop $200
>at the strip club tipping
>18 year olds and then
>come home and give their
>18 year old daughter a
>hug goodnight. They are empty
>and lack conviction in my
>opinion.
>
>Ryan
+1
Tristate
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,883
SOunds like those guys realized you weren't honest with them either. I don't speak for those guys but I can see how they think its funny to watch yall argue for years through a media that has no credibility.
Then there is this quote.
" None of us would be the least bit "ignorant" if your organization showed the slightest bit of transparency on the one thing they aren't and that is the use of the $5 application fee for those 200 tags that are the public trust. "
I can't speak for everyone else but Flopgun, you will remain exceptionally ignorant.
I think its funny how short yall's memories are. I have been coming here for years now and EVERY SINGLE THING that I have told yall would happen is or has happened. Right in front of your eyes while yall were too blinded by hate to see it. Maybe that's why these guys don't post.
If I am a troll do you ever wonder why I haven't been kicked off these forums?
Then there is this quote.
" None of us would be the least bit "ignorant" if your organization showed the slightest bit of transparency on the one thing they aren't and that is the use of the $5 application fee for those 200 tags that are the public trust. "
I can't speak for everyone else but Flopgun, you will remain exceptionally ignorant.
I think its funny how short yall's memories are. I have been coming here for years now and EVERY SINGLE THING that I have told yall would happen is or has happened. Right in front of your eyes while yall were too blinded by hate to see it. Maybe that's why these guys don't post.
If I am a troll do you ever wonder why I haven't been kicked off these forums?
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,014
LAST EDITED ON Feb-19-16 AT 08:45AM (MST)[p]Great post javihammer. I call that the Readers Digest version of this thread.
I would like to address one more point that Birdman has brought up a couple of times in this thread and others. In an effort to defend SFW, he has mentioned that RMEF previously offered to give back 100% of the money raised from Conservation Permit tags but he has suggested that they are only returning 90% based upon the latest DWR audit. Let's look at the facts.
I assume that Birdman is referring to the following press release that RMEF issued in May of 2013: "RMEF Waives All Revenue from National Convention Tags; Again Calls for Transparency from All Wildlife Groups." See http://www.rmef.org/NewsandMedia/PressRoom/NewsReleases/RMEFWaivesRevenuefromTags.aspx
In that press release, RMEF committed to returning 100% of revenues from "special tags sold at our national convention." "It's of paramount importance to RMEF to not only be responsible for the money raised for wildlife, but to follow those funds from start to finish to make sure those who use them do so for their intended purpose,? said David Allen, RMEF president and CEO. ?Sportsmen and women need to demand transparency and hold RMEF and all wildlife agencies and conservation organizations accountable, especially for the money and its use. These tags are a matter of public trust and we are proud to be part of that effort.?
Allen went to reissue a call to all other wildlife conservation groups to allow full and complete transparency of all their financial information including the publishing of their audited financials from each fiscal year. ?We voluntarily submit to independent audits of our annual finances. Why should we not make this information available to our members and the public at-large? If we were a publicly traded business we would have to do this on a regular basis. Let's do it as a matter of respect for, and accountability to, our members and the public.?
In its most recent proposal, RMEF renewed this offer to the DWR. In addition to voluntarily committing 100% of the $5 application fee revenue, and 50% of net profits from the entire convention, RMEF also offerered 100% of the revenues from state conservation or auction tags that would be auctioned off that the National Convention. Section 2.3.3 of RMEF's proposal provides as follows:
"Beginning in 2014, RMEF has dedicated 100% of revenue generated from national tag auctions back to state agencies regardless of the allocation that could be retained by the conservation organization. During this time, we auctioned 18 tags and generated more than $1.2 million for wildlife conservation. RMEF returned 100% of this revenue to the agencies to benefit protected wildlife."
Those are the facts. RMEF has offered to return 100% of special tags auctioned off at the RMEF National Convention. The state of Utah would have benefitted from that commitment if RMEF would have been awarded the Expo tag contract and RMEF would have brought its National Convention to Utah. But that did not happen. Hopefully, that clears up Birdman's questions on this issue. Rather than question the accountability and transparency of RMEF, SFW should focus on getting its own house in order.
-Hawkeye-
P.S. As a side note, RMEF issued a similar press release in 2012 calling for increased transparency from conservation groups dealing in public tags. http://www.rmef.org/NewsandMedia/Pr...EFCallsforTransparencyonStateSpecialBigG.aspx The most entertaining and disappointing part of this issue was the fact that Jim Karpowitz, then Director of the UDWR, sent a letter to RMEF on DWR letterhead criticizing RMEF for requesting increased transparency and making the State of Utah and other groups look bad. My favorite statement from Mr. Karpowitz's June 19, 2012 letter was the following: "This statement could be interpreted by some readers that Utah has not been transparent in the expenditure of these permit funds or that we have not required conservation organizations to be transparent." DUH!!!
I would like to address one more point that Birdman has brought up a couple of times in this thread and others. In an effort to defend SFW, he has mentioned that RMEF previously offered to give back 100% of the money raised from Conservation Permit tags but he has suggested that they are only returning 90% based upon the latest DWR audit. Let's look at the facts.
I assume that Birdman is referring to the following press release that RMEF issued in May of 2013: "RMEF Waives All Revenue from National Convention Tags; Again Calls for Transparency from All Wildlife Groups." See http://www.rmef.org/NewsandMedia/PressRoom/NewsReleases/RMEFWaivesRevenuefromTags.aspx
In that press release, RMEF committed to returning 100% of revenues from "special tags sold at our national convention." "It's of paramount importance to RMEF to not only be responsible for the money raised for wildlife, but to follow those funds from start to finish to make sure those who use them do so for their intended purpose,? said David Allen, RMEF president and CEO. ?Sportsmen and women need to demand transparency and hold RMEF and all wildlife agencies and conservation organizations accountable, especially for the money and its use. These tags are a matter of public trust and we are proud to be part of that effort.?
Allen went to reissue a call to all other wildlife conservation groups to allow full and complete transparency of all their financial information including the publishing of their audited financials from each fiscal year. ?We voluntarily submit to independent audits of our annual finances. Why should we not make this information available to our members and the public at-large? If we were a publicly traded business we would have to do this on a regular basis. Let's do it as a matter of respect for, and accountability to, our members and the public.?
In its most recent proposal, RMEF renewed this offer to the DWR. In addition to voluntarily committing 100% of the $5 application fee revenue, and 50% of net profits from the entire convention, RMEF also offerered 100% of the revenues from state conservation or auction tags that would be auctioned off that the National Convention. Section 2.3.3 of RMEF's proposal provides as follows:
"Beginning in 2014, RMEF has dedicated 100% of revenue generated from national tag auctions back to state agencies regardless of the allocation that could be retained by the conservation organization. During this time, we auctioned 18 tags and generated more than $1.2 million for wildlife conservation. RMEF returned 100% of this revenue to the agencies to benefit protected wildlife."
Those are the facts. RMEF has offered to return 100% of special tags auctioned off at the RMEF National Convention. The state of Utah would have benefitted from that commitment if RMEF would have been awarded the Expo tag contract and RMEF would have brought its National Convention to Utah. But that did not happen. Hopefully, that clears up Birdman's questions on this issue. Rather than question the accountability and transparency of RMEF, SFW should focus on getting its own house in order.
-Hawkeye-
P.S. As a side note, RMEF issued a similar press release in 2012 calling for increased transparency from conservation groups dealing in public tags. http://www.rmef.org/NewsandMedia/Pr...EFCallsforTransparencyonStateSpecialBigG.aspx The most entertaining and disappointing part of this issue was the fact that Jim Karpowitz, then Director of the UDWR, sent a letter to RMEF on DWR letterhead criticizing RMEF for requesting increased transparency and making the State of Utah and other groups look bad. My favorite statement from Mr. Karpowitz's June 19, 2012 letter was the following: "This statement could be interpreted by some readers that Utah has not been transparent in the expenditure of these permit funds or that we have not required conservation organizations to be transparent." DUH!!!
johnnyutah
Active Member
- Messages
- 125
Javilhammer, That's a great summary of 300+ posts.
I've been watching SFW for a while. Ten years ago They had a lot of defenders. They presented themselves as an organization that represents all sportsmen and speaks for all. Nobody questioned it. Then people started wising up that SFW has hurt the general hunt in their quest for limited trophy hunting opportunities. They've been largely financed by public resources and used it for their special interests. People started asking questions. Questions lead to more questions. Now their dialog is "We won!!! - deal with it you whiny losers!!!"
I've been watching SFW for a while. Ten years ago They had a lot of defenders. They presented themselves as an organization that represents all sportsmen and speaks for all. Nobody questioned it. Then people started wising up that SFW has hurt the general hunt in their quest for limited trophy hunting opportunities. They've been largely financed by public resources and used it for their special interests. People started asking questions. Questions lead to more questions. Now their dialog is "We won!!! - deal with it you whiny losers!!!"
>Javilhammer, That's a great summary
>of 300+ posts.
>
>I've been watching SFW for a
>while. Ten years ago
>They had a lot of
>defenders. They presented themselves
>as an organization that represents
>all sportsmen and speaks for
>all. Nobody
>questioned it. Then people
>started wising up that SFW
>has hurt the general hunt
>in their quest for limited
>trophy hunting opportunities. They've
>been largely financed by public
>resources and used it for
>their special interests. People
>started asking questions. Questions lead
>to more questions. Now their
>dialog is "We won!!! -
>deal with it you whiny
>losers!!!"
Great first post---Short and to the point!!!
>of 300+ posts.
>
>I've been watching SFW for a
>while. Ten years ago
>They had a lot of
>defenders. They presented themselves
>as an organization that represents
>all sportsmen and speaks for
>all. Nobody
>questioned it. Then people
>started wising up that SFW
>has hurt the general hunt
>in their quest for limited
>trophy hunting opportunities. They've
>been largely financed by public
>resources and used it for
>their special interests. People
>started asking questions. Questions lead
>to more questions. Now their
>dialog is "We won!!! -
>deal with it you whiny
>losers!!!"
Great first post---Short and to the point!!!
elkfromabove
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,111
LAST EDITED ON Feb-19-16 AT 06:48PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-19-16 AT 06:43?PM (MST)
DC,
Well, it's been 3 days (Post 113) since I asked if you would care to elaborate on what your "real" goals or motives are for the management of wildlife and suggested we get Tristate to ask, but since we haven't heard from either of you on this question since then, I'm now going to ask you myself. Please explain to the readers what it is we don't see or know and why you think SFW's plan for the future of hunting is the right plan to pursue and why you think we are on the wrong track. Up to this point about all we're getting is that we're lying about our motives and wrong about yours. Enlighten us!
DC,
Well, it's been 3 days (Post 113) since I asked if you would care to elaborate on what your "real" goals or motives are for the management of wildlife and suggested we get Tristate to ask, but since we haven't heard from either of you on this question since then, I'm now going to ask you myself. Please explain to the readers what it is we don't see or know and why you think SFW's plan for the future of hunting is the right plan to pursue and why you think we are on the wrong track. Up to this point about all we're getting is that we're lying about our motives and wrong about yours. Enlighten us!
dryflyelk
Active Member
- Messages
- 842
Just going to add my virtual fist bump to Javi for that post. Excellent.
It really is mind boggling that there are still people out there defending this stuff. Take all the emotion, conjecture, pictures, imaginary ratios and "leveraging", three hour tours and slide shows out of it and just look at the facts.
There have been so, so many shady and/or incompetent pieces in this cluster frack that has become the expo. Indefensible stuff, really. The list is long. And despite the beliefs of a few relative newcomers to this process, this is a battle many of us have been fighting for a long, long time, and it's not something that can be fixed with a smile and a pat on the back.
Wildlife in our state would be in a better place now and going forward if SFW did not exist.
Period.
Vi Et Armis Invictus Maneo
It really is mind boggling that there are still people out there defending this stuff. Take all the emotion, conjecture, pictures, imaginary ratios and "leveraging", three hour tours and slide shows out of it and just look at the facts.
There have been so, so many shady and/or incompetent pieces in this cluster frack that has become the expo. Indefensible stuff, really. The list is long. And despite the beliefs of a few relative newcomers to this process, this is a battle many of us have been fighting for a long, long time, and it's not something that can be fixed with a smile and a pat on the back.
Wildlife in our state would be in a better place now and going forward if SFW did not exist.
Period.
Vi Et Armis Invictus Maneo
elkfromabove
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,111
>elkfromabove, I was just checking if
>you got my PM?
>
>Thanks Joe
>
>"Sometimes you do things wrong for
>so long you
>think their right" - 2001
>"I can't argue with honesty" -
>2005
>-Joe E Sikora
Got it! Thanks. (I need to check my inbox more often then once a month or so.)
Lee
>you got my PM?
>
>Thanks Joe
>
>"Sometimes you do things wrong for
>so long you
>think their right" - 2001
>"I can't argue with honesty" -
>2005
>-Joe E Sikora
Got it! Thanks. (I need to check my inbox more often then once a month or so.)
Lee
Buccsboy55
Active Member
- Messages
- 401
joesikora
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,308
Hi Hawkeye, after all that is being said for and against SFW. I was wondering if you would,
tell me a story. Tell me and everyone else on here, your entire story from start to present day of your interactions with SFW.
I have not become a SFW supporter or hater, nor a Hawkeye supporter or hater. I'm looking for answers. I've talked to several guys from SFW and Ive talked with you, (unlike some people on here that just want to take one side without looking into anything else). So I would like you to lay out what has gone on, to get you all to the point your at today.
Thanks for your time
Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
tell me a story. Tell me and everyone else on here, your entire story from start to present day of your interactions with SFW.
I have not become a SFW supporter or hater, nor a Hawkeye supporter or hater. I'm looking for answers. I've talked to several guys from SFW and Ive talked with you, (unlike some people on here that just want to take one side without looking into anything else). So I would like you to lay out what has gone on, to get you all to the point your at today.
Thanks for your time
Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
>Hi Hawkeye, after all that is
>being said for and against
>SFW. I was wondering if
>you would,
>tell me a story. Tell me
>and everyone else on here,
>your entire story from start
>to present day of your
>interactions with SFW.
>I have not become a SFW
>supporter or hater, nor a
>Hawkeye supporter or hater. I'm
>looking for answers. I've talked
>to several guys from SFW
>and Ive talked with you,
>(unlike some people on here
>that just want to take
>one side without looking into
>anything else). So I would
>like you to lay out
>what has gone on, to
>get you all to the
>point your at today.
>
>Thanks for your time
>Joe
>
>"Sometimes you do things wrong for
>so long you
>think their right" - 2001
>"I can't argue with honesty" -
>2005
>-Joe E Sikora
What more do you need to know that what has been stated by Hawkeye alone on this one thread in particular? Joe, it doesn't really take a rocket scientist to read what has happened since the Expo started 10 years ago and to see what has been stated about all that money involving the $5 application fee with no facts coming back by SFW to show any transparency at all as to where most of it has gone. Joe, we're talking about over 8 million friggin dollars that's unaccounted for!
>being said for and against
>SFW. I was wondering if
>you would,
>tell me a story. Tell me
>and everyone else on here,
>your entire story from start
>to present day of your
>interactions with SFW.
>I have not become a SFW
>supporter or hater, nor a
>Hawkeye supporter or hater. I'm
>looking for answers. I've talked
>to several guys from SFW
>and Ive talked with you,
>(unlike some people on here
>that just want to take
>one side without looking into
>anything else). So I would
>like you to lay out
>what has gone on, to
>get you all to the
>point your at today.
>
>Thanks for your time
>Joe
>
>"Sometimes you do things wrong for
>so long you
>think their right" - 2001
>"I can't argue with honesty" -
>2005
>-Joe E Sikora
What more do you need to know that what has been stated by Hawkeye alone on this one thread in particular? Joe, it doesn't really take a rocket scientist to read what has happened since the Expo started 10 years ago and to see what has been stated about all that money involving the $5 application fee with no facts coming back by SFW to show any transparency at all as to where most of it has gone. Joe, we're talking about over 8 million friggin dollars that's unaccounted for!
joesikora
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,308
TOPGUN, why are you answering for Hawkeye?
This question is asked for ME, to help ME understand the problem, how did you get involved?
I hate to say this because I know you are my senior and I always try to show respect for my elders, but even after I've done all that before, you continue to talk nonsense.
So from now on please refrain from answering any question I ask unless it's asked of you.
I also knew it was you that responded because this is not a question that can be answered so quickly.
Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
This question is asked for ME, to help ME understand the problem, how did you get involved?
I hate to say this because I know you are my senior and I always try to show respect for my elders, but even after I've done all that before, you continue to talk nonsense.
So from now on please refrain from answering any question I ask unless it's asked of you.
I also knew it was you that responded because this is not a question that can be answered so quickly.
Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
sageadvice
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 11,849
Joe, You seem like a nice guy that wants to do good. If you really cared about the huge issues here, you wouldn't just stop in and bless us with your presence every other month or so as you have been doing for years now. Get off your high horse and i don't mind if you butt out of this issue altogether because you are not helping and IMO, only inflating your own ego.
No PM's to me either please, been there done that.
Joey
"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
No PM's to me either please, been there done that.
Joey
"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
joesikora
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,308
Hi sageadvice, have I ever sent you a pm? I just looked through my in box and I didn't see you name there, am I missing somethings? And as far as me wanting to ask questions, how is that a problem? That's how I learn about an issue is to ask questions. I would love for this to go to the courts to finally end this one way or another. Are saying that I don't have the right to ask questions?
Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
joesikora
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,308
Another thing sageadvice, why would you attack me personally? I have always tried to be positive about the issues and people on here, so why would you take that stance with me?
Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
sageadvice
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 11,849
Joe, Read my message again and don't put words in my mouth please. I'm just well tired of you acting the mediator when it's plain to many that you are more acting the fool.
Joey
Joey
LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-16 AT 07:22PM (MST)[p]>TOPGUN, why are you answering for
>Hawkeye?
>This question is asked for ME,
>to help ME understand the
>problem, how did you get
>involved?
>
>I hate to say this because
>I know you are my
>senior and I always try
>to show respect for my
>elders, but even after I've
>done all that before, you
>continue to talk nonsense.
>
>So from now on please refrain
>from answering any question I
>ask unless it's asked of
>you.
>I also knew it was you
>that responded because this is
>not a question that can
>be answered so quickly.
>
>Joe
>
>"Sometimes you do things wrong for
>so long you
>think their right" - 2001
>"I can't argue with honesty" -
>2005
>-Joe E Sikora
First off, you're on an open public Forum, so if you don't want posts back to you on a thread and only want one person to answer you, then send them a PM! I also didn't post any nonsense, but as nice as you seem to be IMHO you're naive and too damn nice regarding this situation. You have stated you've had lengthy discussions with Hawkeye, as well as the SFW koolaid drinkers, so what else do you need? EVERYTHING has been spelled out on this and other threads by Hawkeye such that a first grader should be able to comprehend what is going on. The facts are out there that a lot of money (8+ million) has been taken from the public trust over the last 8-10 years by SFW/MDF and not accounted for and the organization will not respond. Their members on here have also just called people asking for answers haters, etc. because they have no answers and don't have any more idea where that money their organization took in went than we do. I guess after reading the post Joey just put up that I'd have to say I agree with him 100% and that you should give it a rest, as you're making a fool of yourself the more you post on this subject!
>Hawkeye?
>This question is asked for ME,
>to help ME understand the
>problem, how did you get
>involved?
>
>I hate to say this because
>I know you are my
>senior and I always try
>to show respect for my
>elders, but even after I've
>done all that before, you
>continue to talk nonsense.
>
>So from now on please refrain
>from answering any question I
>ask unless it's asked of
>you.
>I also knew it was you
>that responded because this is
>not a question that can
>be answered so quickly.
>
>Joe
>
>"Sometimes you do things wrong for
>so long you
>think their right" - 2001
>"I can't argue with honesty" -
>2005
>-Joe E Sikora
First off, you're on an open public Forum, so if you don't want posts back to you on a thread and only want one person to answer you, then send them a PM! I also didn't post any nonsense, but as nice as you seem to be IMHO you're naive and too damn nice regarding this situation. You have stated you've had lengthy discussions with Hawkeye, as well as the SFW koolaid drinkers, so what else do you need? EVERYTHING has been spelled out on this and other threads by Hawkeye such that a first grader should be able to comprehend what is going on. The facts are out there that a lot of money (8+ million) has been taken from the public trust over the last 8-10 years by SFW/MDF and not accounted for and the organization will not respond. Their members on here have also just called people asking for answers haters, etc. because they have no answers and don't have any more idea where that money their organization took in went than we do. I guess after reading the post Joey just put up that I'd have to say I agree with him 100% and that you should give it a rest, as you're making a fool of yourself the more you post on this subject!
joesikora
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,308
sageadvice,
so your saying that I'm acting a fool because I'm asking questions of both sides to try and learn what the problems are? Shame on you!
You also didn't answer my question, were you saying I've PM'ed you in the past about certain subjects?
Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
so your saying that I'm acting a fool because I'm asking questions of both sides to try and learn what the problems are? Shame on you!
You also didn't answer my question, were you saying I've PM'ed you in the past about certain subjects?
Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
joesikora
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,308
TOPGUN, yes this is a open forum for anyone to write their opinions and comments, but my problem with you is your answering for someone else. Do you know what Hawkeye's answer is going to be? You personally know his story? Do you know everything that has taken place between Hawkeye and SFW, if so please enlighten me, because I sure don't know, that's why I asked.
Now if Hawkeye wants to get angry with me over this then so be it, but I think Hawkeye is a big boy and can take care of himself. I also think he will not think I'm attacking him because I'm am asking a question either.
Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
Now if Hawkeye wants to get angry with me over this then so be it, but I think Hawkeye is a big boy and can take care of himself. I also think he will not think I'm attacking him because I'm am asking a question either.
Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
Tristate
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,883
Joe you f-d up and asked questions. People with irrational hate can't stand questions. The more you talk to them the more you will be hated for having free thought and using logic. Welcome to the circus. I am sure soon topgun will send you a friendly email warning you someone is coming to kick your a$$.
joesikora
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,308
RE: Expo Tags Articl
sageadvice, I know you're a good man I've been reading your posts for awhile. You also know that I have said many times before that I love this site because of the people on here. There are a bunch of great guys on here that will help you out in a minute and have a lot of good advice. So are you saying I don't get the same respect as I give to others?
Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
sageadvice, I know you're a good man I've been reading your posts for awhile. You also know that I have said many times before that I love this site because of the people on here. There are a bunch of great guys on here that will help you out in a minute and have a lot of good advice. So are you saying I don't get the same respect as I give to others?
Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
>Joe you f-d up and asked
>questions. People with irrational hate
>can't stand questions. The
>more you talk to them
>the more you will be
>hated for having free thought
>and using logic. Welcome
>to the circus. I
>am sure soon topgun will
>send you a friendly email
>warning you someone is coming
>to kick your a$$.
>
You can crawl back in your hole now troll, as all the questions have been answered. Too bad your reading comprehension is so poor you can't understand adult conversation!
>questions. People with irrational hate
>can't stand questions. The
>more you talk to them
>the more you will be
>hated for having free thought
>and using logic. Welcome
>to the circus. I
>am sure soon topgun will
>send you a friendly email
>warning you someone is coming
>to kick your a$$.
>
You can crawl back in your hole now troll, as all the questions have been answered. Too bad your reading comprehension is so poor you can't understand adult conversation!
sageadvice
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 11,849
RE: Expo Tags Articl
Joe, one more time and i'm done. I said what i meant to say and no more. Please quit putting words in my mouth.
This issue has been going on for years n years yet you only now care to get involved. As a outsider, Johnny came lately to the party, i feel that you have as much chance to help rectify the situation as i have of winning the Kentucky Derby.
Joey
"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"s
Joe, one more time and i'm done. I said what i meant to say and no more. Please quit putting words in my mouth.
This issue has been going on for years n years yet you only now care to get involved. As a outsider, Johnny came lately to the party, i feel that you have as much chance to help rectify the situation as i have of winning the Kentucky Derby.
Joey
"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"s
joesikora
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,308
Wow! TOPGUN how disrespectful can you be? And you don't think some of the things you say are nonsense, read your last post. Even if someone is wrong, Who died and made you Boss? Because I want a recount.
Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
>TOPGUN, yes this is a open
>forum for anyone to write
>their opinions and comments, but
>my problem with you is
>your answering for someone else.
>Do you know what Hawkeye's
>answer is going to be?
>You personally know his story?
>Do you know everything that
>has taken place between Hawkeye
>and SFW, if so please
>enlighten me, because I sure
>don't know, that's why I
>asked.
>Now if Hawkeye wants to get
>angry with me over this
>then so be it, but
>I think Hawkeye is a
>big boy and can take
>care of himself. I also
>think he will not think
>I'm attacking him because I'm
>am asking a question either.
>
>
>Joe
>
>
>"Sometimes you do things wrong for
>so long you
>think their right" - 2001
>"I can't argue with honesty" -
>2005
>-Joe E Sikora
I made a brief statement and didn't answer for Hawkeye. Rather, I just asked what in the heck more do you need to know when it's been stated over and over and over what the problem is and that no answers have been forthcoming for many years when the organization is asked where the public trust money went. To ask Hawkeye to again come on here with a lengthy post like you appear to want IMHO will do nothing but waste his valuable time. However, as nice as he is I don't doubt that he'll do as you ask and then you'll keep right on tryng to be the honorable mediator and getting nowhere just like none of the rest of us have been for years.
>forum for anyone to write
>their opinions and comments, but
>my problem with you is
>your answering for someone else.
>Do you know what Hawkeye's
>answer is going to be?
>You personally know his story?
>Do you know everything that
>has taken place between Hawkeye
>and SFW, if so please
>enlighten me, because I sure
>don't know, that's why I
>asked.
>Now if Hawkeye wants to get
>angry with me over this
>then so be it, but
>I think Hawkeye is a
>big boy and can take
>care of himself. I also
>think he will not think
>I'm attacking him because I'm
>am asking a question either.
>
>
>Joe
>
>
>"Sometimes you do things wrong for
>so long you
>think their right" - 2001
>"I can't argue with honesty" -
>2005
>-Joe E Sikora
I made a brief statement and didn't answer for Hawkeye. Rather, I just asked what in the heck more do you need to know when it's been stated over and over and over what the problem is and that no answers have been forthcoming for many years when the organization is asked where the public trust money went. To ask Hawkeye to again come on here with a lengthy post like you appear to want IMHO will do nothing but waste his valuable time. However, as nice as he is I don't doubt that he'll do as you ask and then you'll keep right on tryng to be the honorable mediator and getting nowhere just like none of the rest of us have been for years.
>Wow! TOPGUN how disrespectful can you
>be? And you don't think
>some of the things you
>say are nonsense, read your
>last post. Even if someone
>is wrong, Who died and
>made you Boss? Because I
>want a recount.
>
>Joe
>
>"Sometimes you do things wrong for
>so long you
>think their right" - 2001
>"I can't argue with honesty" -
>2005
>-Joe E Sikora
Are you tipping the bottle tonight? Joey and I have been about as nice as we can be, but unlike the way you appear to be, I don't kiss anybody's rear including yours. Like Joey stated, the more you post the more you come across as a fool. That, Sir, is as polite as I can be and if you don't like that too bad!
>be? And you don't think
>some of the things you
>say are nonsense, read your
>last post. Even if someone
>is wrong, Who died and
>made you Boss? Because I
>want a recount.
>
>Joe
>
>"Sometimes you do things wrong for
>so long you
>think their right" - 2001
>"I can't argue with honesty" -
>2005
>-Joe E Sikora
Are you tipping the bottle tonight? Joey and I have been about as nice as we can be, but unlike the way you appear to be, I don't kiss anybody's rear including yours. Like Joey stated, the more you post the more you come across as a fool. That, Sir, is as polite as I can be and if you don't like that too bad!
joesikora
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,308
TOPGUN, for not answering for someone your sure keep answering for him!
I have bad news for you, you can't read my mind and you don't know what answers I'm hoping to get.
But you still continue to speak of things you do not know. You tell me "That all the answers are in the past posts"! How do you know what the answers are to my questions? Again I ask, Can you read my mind?
Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
I have bad news for you, you can't read my mind and you don't know what answers I'm hoping to get.
But you still continue to speak of things you do not know. You tell me "That all the answers are in the past posts"! How do you know what the answers are to my questions? Again I ask, Can you read my mind?
Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
>TOPGUN, for not answering for someone
>your sure keep answering for
>him!
>I have bad news for you,
>you can't read my mind
>and you don't know what
>answers I'm hoping to get.
>
>But you still continue to speak
>of things you do not
>know. You tell me "That
>all the answers are in
>the past posts"! How do
>you know what the answers
>are to my questions? Again
>I ask, Can you read
>my mind?
>
>Joe
>
Whatever as the kids says nowadays! Keep posting your baloney and you'll continue looking just like Sage stated. Now I see you have even started a thread just to say you sent a PM to Founder. No, I can't read your mind, but can pretty well put 2 + 2 together and come up with what it's about!
>your sure keep answering for
>him!
>I have bad news for you,
>you can't read my mind
>and you don't know what
>answers I'm hoping to get.
>
>But you still continue to speak
>of things you do not
>know. You tell me "That
>all the answers are in
>the past posts"! How do
>you know what the answers
>are to my questions? Again
>I ask, Can you read
>my mind?
>
>Joe
>
Whatever as the kids says nowadays! Keep posting your baloney and you'll continue looking just like Sage stated. Now I see you have even started a thread just to say you sent a PM to Founder. No, I can't read your mind, but can pretty well put 2 + 2 together and come up with what it's about!
grizzly
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 5,598
Hey Joe, I hope all is well with you.
I'm not going to speak for anybody here, but I wanted to let you know when I saw your post asking Hawkeye to tell you his story, my first reaction was that Hawkeye has already written literally thousands of words on this issue, none of which has ever been found to be factually inaccurate. He may respond with another lengthy and factual post, as that is his prerogative, but my initial reaction to the question was that he's documented everything already, and a quick search of his posts will tell you the story as he has written it, with the words written at the very time that each situation arose. It will probably be more thorough and accurate than his re-telling anyway.
I guess my thought was that you should probably put in the legwork and research his story rather than expect him to write it all down for you. But maybe I'm wrong.
Grizzly
I'm not going to speak for anybody here, but I wanted to let you know when I saw your post asking Hawkeye to tell you his story, my first reaction was that Hawkeye has already written literally thousands of words on this issue, none of which has ever been found to be factually inaccurate. He may respond with another lengthy and factual post, as that is his prerogative, but my initial reaction to the question was that he's documented everything already, and a quick search of his posts will tell you the story as he has written it, with the words written at the very time that each situation arose. It will probably be more thorough and accurate than his re-telling anyway.
I guess my thought was that you should probably put in the legwork and research his story rather than expect him to write it all down for you. But maybe I'm wrong.
Grizzly
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,014
LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-16 AT 09:54PM (MST)[p]Joe-
Are you bored today or what? You want me to write up my entire story from start to present day of my interactions with SFW? We both know I am long-winded and prone to "lawyer talk" but I don't have the time or energy to sit down and write up that saga. Feel free to run a search on this forum including the archives. You will want to start reading my posts in about 2009. Seven years worth of posts should provide you more information than you want. If you want to hear it first hand, give me a call and we can spend a couple more hours walking through the issues.
As I said in a prior post, I appreciate your interest and curiosity but this train is already a long way down the tracks and frankly the issues are not nearly as complicated as some make them out to be. If SFW and MDF are going to take our public tags to "generate revenues for wildlife conservation activities," then they better be willing to account for those monies. Pretty simple.
A wise man once said "Kill em with your kindness."
-Hawkeye-
Are you bored today or what? You want me to write up my entire story from start to present day of my interactions with SFW? We both know I am long-winded and prone to "lawyer talk" but I don't have the time or energy to sit down and write up that saga. Feel free to run a search on this forum including the archives. You will want to start reading my posts in about 2009. Seven years worth of posts should provide you more information than you want. If you want to hear it first hand, give me a call and we can spend a couple more hours walking through the issues.
As I said in a prior post, I appreciate your interest and curiosity but this train is already a long way down the tracks and frankly the issues are not nearly as complicated as some make them out to be. If SFW and MDF are going to take our public tags to "generate revenues for wildlife conservation activities," then they better be willing to account for those monies. Pretty simple.
A wise man once said "Kill em with your kindness."
-Hawkeye-
joesikora
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,308
Hi grizzly, hope all is well with you too.
Yes I have read all the posts and articles he has posted, and I too would love to find out who's right and who's wrong or is this thing never going to end, so there is no reason for him to put that up. I also took the time to research Don Paeys name and found a lot more articles as well. With all that being said, I was referring to his personal experiences he has had with SFW, from start to present. I hope that makes more sense to everyone.
Sometimes when I write these posts I think my questions get lost. When I read it, it makes sense to me, but unfortunately maybe not to the public, for that I am sorry. My bad!
Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
Yes I have read all the posts and articles he has posted, and I too would love to find out who's right and who's wrong or is this thing never going to end, so there is no reason for him to put that up. I also took the time to research Don Paeys name and found a lot more articles as well. With all that being said, I was referring to his personal experiences he has had with SFW, from start to present. I hope that makes more sense to everyone.
Sometimes when I write these posts I think my questions get lost. When I read it, it makes sense to me, but unfortunately maybe not to the public, for that I am sorry. My bad!
Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
Tristate
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,883
This thread is absolutely hilarious now. Yall literally whined for years and years and years about the same thing on hundreds of threads and over 300 posts just on this whine-a-thon alone, and the minute someone asks you about it yall all band together call him names and declare yall shall whine no more. Thanks Joe. Obviously I went about it the wrong way trying to get these spoiled kids to shut their holes. Sorry you had to throw yourself on the sword to do it.
>This thread is absolutely hilarious now.
> Yall literally whined for
>years and years and years
>about the same thing on
>hundreds of threads and over
>300 posts just on this
>whine-a-thon alone, and the minute
>someone asks you about it
>yall all band together call
>him names and declare yall
>shall whine no more.
>Thanks Joe. Obviously I
>went about it the wrong
>way trying to get these
>spoiled kids to shut their
>holes. Sorry you had
>to throw yourself on the
>sword to do it.
Ok Hillary!
> Yall literally whined for
>years and years and years
>about the same thing on
>hundreds of threads and over
>300 posts just on this
>whine-a-thon alone, and the minute
>someone asks you about it
>yall all band together call
>him names and declare yall
>shall whine no more.
>Thanks Joe. Obviously I
>went about it the wrong
>way trying to get these
>spoiled kids to shut their
>holes. Sorry you had
>to throw yourself on the
>sword to do it.
Ok Hillary!
What's hilarious is how much time the runt Piglet spends trolling whine-o-thon threads.
Seriously Piglet, how miserable is your life that you have to spend so much time posting absolute non sense on the internet about stuff you know nothing about? I thought only teenagers did that type of stuff.
Seriously Piglet, how miserable is your life that you have to spend so much time posting absolute non sense on the internet about stuff you know nothing about? I thought only teenagers did that type of stuff.
grizzly
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 5,598
If that's true, it probably helps explain why SFW has been so PR-heavy this year, with the self-promoting emails before the expo, then changing their website to graphs touting money raised by the Expo in the past (of which, we are not entitled to ask if it was actually spent on wildlife), and ultimately sending out the ridiculous email post-expo.
They're clearly feeling the heat. And that's a good thing.
Grizzly
They're clearly feeling the heat. And that's a good thing.
Grizzly
Since the audience for KUTV mostly 40 year old ladies. The reporter is trying to grab there attention to the corruption and none compliance of where the money goes and has gone. Since they are public tags there should be more accountability to the funds and who is using them! Hope that helps!
He also mentioned that he was trying to bring to light those who are not in the hunting world everyday who know the issue. Trying to shed some light to the other citizens of Utah!
He also mentioned that he was trying to bring to light those who are not in the hunting world everyday who know the issue. Trying to shed some light to the other citizens of Utah!
cannonball
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,266
You guys may get your hopes dashed. This reporter depends on DWR for outdoors news, so it probably will be watered down so much you'll say - HUH!!
A friend thought they had some clear cut problems with fish management on the Boulder. The TV channel came down and spent some time on the Boulder with them and agreed with them completely. By the time the news feature came on about it. It was little to do about nothing. It was obvious they were not going to cross the DWR.
A friend thought they had some clear cut problems with fish management on the Boulder. The TV channel came down and spent some time on the Boulder with them and agreed with them completely. By the time the news feature came on about it. It was little to do about nothing. It was obvious they were not going to cross the DWR.
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,014
Cannonball-
As I explained above, I don't know what angle the reporter will take with the story. But as the old saying goes, "there is no such thing as bad publicity." I am not expecting the reporter to drop the hammer on the DWR. However, any story that highlights the lack of transparency and accountability is positive in my book. It is about educating people as to what is happening and then letting them form their own opinions.
-Hawkeye-
As I explained above, I don't know what angle the reporter will take with the story. But as the old saying goes, "there is no such thing as bad publicity." I am not expecting the reporter to drop the hammer on the DWR. However, any story that highlights the lack of transparency and accountability is positive in my book. It is about educating people as to what is happening and then letting them form their own opinions.
-Hawkeye-
LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-16 AT 09:39AM (MST)[p]>You guys may get your hopes
>dashed. This reporter depends
>on DWR for outdoors news,
>so it probably will be
>watered down so much you'll
>say - HUH!!
>
The Reporter I know personally and he is NOT the outdoors type. He is NOT the outdoors Reporter either. He not does he have any affiliation with the DWR, nor RMEF or SFW.
The story was reported to the news desk and he reached out and asked for some help with the story. I gave him some general direction and he did the rest. Cannot wait to see the story!
He looked at all the data and all the information and went to town. He didn't have the time in the story to dig into the countless questions and how deep the story lead him down the wabbit hole. He wanted to interview Don Peay since he was involved and promised many things when the 200 Epxo permits were created. But the story is what it is, and hopefully it brings to light some questions and light somewhere.
>dashed. This reporter depends
>on DWR for outdoors news,
>so it probably will be
>watered down so much you'll
>say - HUH!!
>
The Reporter I know personally and he is NOT the outdoors type. He is NOT the outdoors Reporter either. He not does he have any affiliation with the DWR, nor RMEF or SFW.
The story was reported to the news desk and he reached out and asked for some help with the story. I gave him some general direction and he did the rest. Cannot wait to see the story!
He looked at all the data and all the information and went to town. He didn't have the time in the story to dig into the countless questions and how deep the story lead him down the wabbit hole. He wanted to interview Don Peay since he was involved and promised many things when the 200 Epxo permits were created. But the story is what it is, and hopefully it brings to light some questions and light somewhere.
cannonball
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,266
I wish the best for you. I have been around the block once or twice with the DWR in the past 40+ years. There is a reason they call it the division of wildlife resource. The DIVISION being divide and conquer. They made some headway to expel that persona a few years ago only to come back with the old style of the sportsmen know "nothin". The SFW was the light at the end of the tunnel for a cushion against their dictatorial edicts.
I just hope that light wasn't a train coming. It certainly appears they may be in bed together now.
I just hope that light wasn't a train coming. It certainly appears they may be in bed together now.
Tristate
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,883
And another Tristate prophecy inches towards fulfillment. Someone please post a link to the story once they air it. I would love to see it.
Gentlemen the thing you never understood is you don't ever want to be in the conscience of the non-hunting public, even if you think they are on your side.
Gentlemen the thing you never understood is you don't ever want to be in the conscience of the non-hunting public, even if you think they are on your side.
heartshot
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,475
Joesikora, you said: ?I have not become a SFW supporter or hater, nor a Hawkeye supporter or hater?
After all your efforts to reach out and research this topic, you are still not a Hawkeye supporter? This blows my mind. I can't believe that you do not think there are some major problems with the handling of the $5 application fees. When you first started to take an independent look at this it was encouraging. Since then, your mediation techniques and desires have not been working out you should probably stop sitting on the fence and pick a side. I think you have plenty of information but don't dare take a stand. I can understand where you might be coming from when you say that you are not a SFW supporter or hater. Perhaps because of the lack of detail available from SFW. But to say that you are neither a Hawkeye supporter nor hater makes me wonder just how hard you tried to understand the issue. It's not rocket science. Tell us what you REALLY think about the Expo tag issue.
After all your efforts to reach out and research this topic, you are still not a Hawkeye supporter? This blows my mind. I can't believe that you do not think there are some major problems with the handling of the $5 application fees. When you first started to take an independent look at this it was encouraging. Since then, your mediation techniques and desires have not been working out you should probably stop sitting on the fence and pick a side. I think you have plenty of information but don't dare take a stand. I can understand where you might be coming from when you say that you are not a SFW supporter or hater. Perhaps because of the lack of detail available from SFW. But to say that you are neither a Hawkeye supporter nor hater makes me wonder just how hard you tried to understand the issue. It's not rocket science. Tell us what you REALLY think about the Expo tag issue.
joesikora
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,308
LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-16 AT 06:35PM (MST)[p]Hi heartshot, I think the problem goes far pass the $5 fee money. I spoke with Hawkeye and SFW today and every time I do I learn more and more. The outlook doesn't look good.
If you'd like to talk about this more with me. I can send you my number or you can send me yours.
Thanks Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
If you'd like to talk about this more with me. I can send you my number or you can send me yours.
Thanks Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
wileywapati
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,808
Mediate my ass. How does one mediate
a farce like this??
Take every bit of state support away from EVERY special interest group, not just Trumps apparent toe rag boy, but every one of these sycophants.
Sink or swim, either the group cuts it like DU or it goes away.
"WE USED TO HUNT GAME TO
MANAGE, NOW WE MANAGE TO
HUNT"
Finn 2/14/16
a farce like this??
Take every bit of state support away from EVERY special interest group, not just Trumps apparent toe rag boy, but every one of these sycophants.
Sink or swim, either the group cuts it like DU or it goes away.
"WE USED TO HUNT GAME TO
MANAGE, NOW WE MANAGE TO
HUNT"
Finn 2/14/16
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,014
That is where Joe snd I disagree. I believe that the core issue is SFW's and MDF's refusal to account for monies raised from our public tags. In other words, the $5 application fees. If the group's fixed that problem tomorrow, I would move on to more important things -- like planning upcoming hunts.
SFW likes to make it sound more complicated than it really is because there is no good defense to the core issue. I don't know if this issue will get resolved but the ball is in SFW/MDF's court. They have the power right now.
-Hawkeye-
SFW likes to make it sound more complicated than it really is because there is no good defense to the core issue. I don't know if this issue will get resolved but the ball is in SFW/MDF's court. They have the power right now.
-Hawkeye-
heartshot
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,475
I think we all pretty much know that the past money is gone and sadly not for wildlife . We are hoping for a better future for newly generated money. I take it Joe thinks that nothing will get accomplished because we are so focused on the past when that money is likely gone.
If SFW would voluntarily choose to do the right thing right now, I for one would quit focusing on the past because legally the requirement to use the money for wildlife isn't there except the recent 30%.
In the meantime, of course we will continue to focus on the past as a means to enact the change that needs to happen.
If SFW would voluntarily choose to do the right thing right now, I for one would quit focusing on the past because legally the requirement to use the money for wildlife isn't there except the recent 30%.
In the meantime, of course we will continue to focus on the past as a means to enact the change that needs to happen.
johnnyutah
Active Member
- Messages
- 125
Joe,
I share Wileywapiti sentiment regarding sink or swim. This is bigger than accounting for the expenditures from the tags.
If SFW was solely a conservation group interested in habitat projects, I'd would have no problem; however, they have used the conservation guise to become a powerful special interest lobby. They are fundamentally changing hunting in Utah. They are shifting the state from an open, general hunt to exclusive, limited, trophy hunt. Although their model has some merit, it is not a good blanket approach to managing public game. Their model seems to be largely driven by antlers and the fees generated from such. Their influence seems to have infiltrated all levels of government as evidenced in the recent expo bid. A number of guys foresaw the outcome as soon as the DWR surprisingly made an extension.
No special interst political group should be given PUBLIC resources for their PERSONAL pursuits and preferences!!! The state does not need a 3rd party for this raffel.
I share Wileywapiti sentiment regarding sink or swim. This is bigger than accounting for the expenditures from the tags.
If SFW was solely a conservation group interested in habitat projects, I'd would have no problem; however, they have used the conservation guise to become a powerful special interest lobby. They are fundamentally changing hunting in Utah. They are shifting the state from an open, general hunt to exclusive, limited, trophy hunt. Although their model has some merit, it is not a good blanket approach to managing public game. Their model seems to be largely driven by antlers and the fees generated from such. Their influence seems to have infiltrated all levels of government as evidenced in the recent expo bid. A number of guys foresaw the outcome as soon as the DWR surprisingly made an extension.
No special interst political group should be given PUBLIC resources for their PERSONAL pursuits and preferences!!! The state does not need a 3rd party for this raffel.
joesikora
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,308
Hi heartshot. I have to talk with a few entitles to get their permission to speak of this and if they say it's alright then I have a few things I wish to bring to light!
I'm so angry right now I can't see straight!
Thanks for your time
Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
I'm so angry right now I can't see straight!
Thanks for your time
Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,014
Joe-
Uh-oh. You are so angry that you cannot see straight? What did heartshot do to provoke your wrath? I have learned over the years that a good mediator never gets personally or emotionally involved in the issues. Take a deep breath. This issue has been percolating for a decade. I can't imagine anything has happened in the last few days that is worth getting upset over.
-Hawkeye-
Uh-oh. You are so angry that you cannot see straight? What did heartshot do to provoke your wrath? I have learned over the years that a good mediator never gets personally or emotionally involved in the issues. Take a deep breath. This issue has been percolating for a decade. I can't imagine anything has happened in the last few days that is worth getting upset over.
-Hawkeye-
joesikora
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,308
Hi Hawkeye, you are right.
I think that this issue can and will be worked out. Hopefully sooner then later, as we would all like.
Imagine how much good could be done, using all this energy in a positive way!
Speaking of doing good, is there anything we all could do for the Wounded Warriors to take Our Heros hunting or something like that? I don't live out west but I could donate a little cash.
Reason I'm asking, I caught part of a hunting show last night, that they were doing just that, but I didn't see who they were.
In the big scheme of things people are dealing with more serious problems then what we let our selves get wrapped up in.
All of us on MM love to hunt, etc. if we pull our resources together, I bet we can bring some happiness to the lives of people who are now struggling to adjust after having served to protect our way of life.
What do you all think?
Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
I think that this issue can and will be worked out. Hopefully sooner then later, as we would all like.
Imagine how much good could be done, using all this energy in a positive way!
Speaking of doing good, is there anything we all could do for the Wounded Warriors to take Our Heros hunting or something like that? I don't live out west but I could donate a little cash.
Reason I'm asking, I caught part of a hunting show last night, that they were doing just that, but I didn't see who they were.
In the big scheme of things people are dealing with more serious problems then what we let our selves get wrapped up in.
All of us on MM love to hunt, etc. if we pull our resources together, I bet we can bring some happiness to the lives of people who are now struggling to adjust after having served to protect our way of life.
What do you all think?
Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
elkfromabove
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,111
LAST EDITED ON Feb-24-16 AT 09:08AM (MST)[p]>Hi Hawkeye, you are right.
>I think that this issue can
>and will be worked out.
>Hopefully sooner then later, as
>we would all like.
>Imagine how much good could be
>done, using all this energy
>in a positive way!
>
>Speaking of doing good, is there
>anything we all could do
>for the Wounded Warriors to
>take Our Heros hunting or
>something like that? I don't
>live out west but I
>could donate a little cash.
>
>Reason I'm asking, I caught part
>of a hunting show last
>night, that they were doing
>just that, but I didn't
>see who they were.
>
>In the big scheme of things
>people are dealing with more
>serious problems then what we
>let our selves get wrapped
>up in.
>
>All of us on MM love
>to hunt, etc. if we
>pull our resources together, I
>bet we can bring some
>happiness to the lives of
>people who are now struggling
>to adjust after having served
>to protect our way of
>life.
>
>What do you all think?
>
>Joe
>
>"Sometimes you do things wrong for
>so long you
>think their right" - 2001
>"I can't argue with honesty" -
>2005
>-Joe E Sikora
Credit UDWR, SFW, some CWMU's and some others in Utah! It's been happening for some time here along with hunts for terminally ill kids. We don't fight about everything and we don't fight just to be fighting!
UWC just promoted, and got approved, a way for blind hunters to be able to pull the trigger with the aid of a lazar sight and a sighted companion. As it turned out, there was already a way to do that, but nobody seemed to bring it up or make the connections, thus no one we knew of had done it before. Now the blind community knows and all the groups were onboard.
>I think that this issue can
>and will be worked out.
>Hopefully sooner then later, as
>we would all like.
>Imagine how much good could be
>done, using all this energy
>in a positive way!
>
>Speaking of doing good, is there
>anything we all could do
>for the Wounded Warriors to
>take Our Heros hunting or
>something like that? I don't
>live out west but I
>could donate a little cash.
>
>Reason I'm asking, I caught part
>of a hunting show last
>night, that they were doing
>just that, but I didn't
>see who they were.
>
>In the big scheme of things
>people are dealing with more
>serious problems then what we
>let our selves get wrapped
>up in.
>
>All of us on MM love
>to hunt, etc. if we
>pull our resources together, I
>bet we can bring some
>happiness to the lives of
>people who are now struggling
>to adjust after having served
>to protect our way of
>life.
>
>What do you all think?
>
>Joe
>
>"Sometimes you do things wrong for
>so long you
>think their right" - 2001
>"I can't argue with honesty" -
>2005
>-Joe E Sikora
Credit UDWR, SFW, some CWMU's and some others in Utah! It's been happening for some time here along with hunts for terminally ill kids. We don't fight about everything and we don't fight just to be fighting!
UWC just promoted, and got approved, a way for blind hunters to be able to pull the trigger with the aid of a lazar sight and a sighted companion. As it turned out, there was already a way to do that, but nobody seemed to bring it up or make the connections, thus no one we knew of had done it before. Now the blind community knows and all the groups were onboard.
joesikora
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,308
Sorry I didn't put this in my last post.
Heartshot you did nothing to provoke me at all. I'm sorry it came across like that.
My Bad Again!
Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
Heartshot you did nothing to provoke me at all. I'm sorry it came across like that.
My Bad Again!
Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,014
Joe, I hope that you are right. I would certainly like to see this issue resolved sooner rather than later. Unfortunately, we are not in the driver's seat on this issue and we have little control as to when and how this is eventually resolved.
There are so many other more productive things that we can put our energy behind. As sportsmen, we all have much more in common than it seems when we are divided on a narrow issue.
-Hawkeye-
There are so many other more productive things that we can put our energy behind. As sportsmen, we all have much more in common than it seems when we are divided on a narrow issue.
-Hawkeye-
dryflyelk
Active Member
- Messages
- 842
>Hi heartshot. I have to talk
>with a few entitles to
>get their permission to speak
>of this and if they
>say it's alright then I
>have a few things I
>wish to bring to light!
>
> I'm so angry right now
>I can't see straight!
>
>-Joe E Sikora
Joe,
While I appreciate your desire to help wounded warriors, it would probably be a good idea to start a separate thread for that so we can stick to the topic at hand.
And speaking of the topic at hand, I'd really like to know of your mysterious findings that you wish to bring to light that make you so angry you can't see straight. Any hints?
I will say I did hear a rumor that I can't confirm - Don Peay may have killed 5 hookers in vegas a few years back. All of this is a smokescreen to keep him out of the spotlight.
Vi Et Armis Invictus Maneo
>with a few entitles to
>get their permission to speak
>of this and if they
>say it's alright then I
>have a few things I
>wish to bring to light!
>
> I'm so angry right now
>I can't see straight!
>
>-Joe E Sikora
Joe,
While I appreciate your desire to help wounded warriors, it would probably be a good idea to start a separate thread for that so we can stick to the topic at hand.
And speaking of the topic at hand, I'd really like to know of your mysterious findings that you wish to bring to light that make you so angry you can't see straight. Any hints?
I will say I did hear a rumor that I can't confirm - Don Peay may have killed 5 hookers in vegas a few years back. All of this is a smokescreen to keep him out of the spotlight.
Vi Et Armis Invictus Maneo
joesikora
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,308
dryflyelk, your right, WW came to mind as I was thinking and typing at the same time. It came be dangerous, like texting and driving!
Sorry!
Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
Sorry!
Joe
"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
desertpointbrian
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,347
Yeah joe with all due respect to come on here and claim to have some upsetting developments that seamed pretty serious then come back and say awh shucks never mind kind of kills your credibility if there is something that needs put out there do it .that's definitely not helping this cause putting stuff back in the closet and keeping secrets
desertpointbrian
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,347
>I thought it was pretty good.
> But like others said,
>it needs to go to
>a bigger source or paper
>or news channel to gain
>any ground. I love
>Dryflyelk's analogy. But 2Lumpy
>thinks all is well.
>GO BERNIE!!!
>
>Some of the things I liked
>were:
>
>Chris Carling, Chief Marketing Officer for
>SFW, suggested during a January
>2016 interview that any concerned
>members of the public, ?Attend
>the expo. It's a model
>trying to be emulated by
>every other state in the
>union.
>
>Wait, havent all the states said
>NO? If its been
>so great, you mean to
>tell me that in 10
>years not 1 other state
>has jumped on board?
>
>When asked how that money was
>spent, SFW President Jon Larson
>said that he guessed ?the
>majority of it? was spent
>on conservation. However, Larson only
>recently became president of SFW
>and could not say for
>sure.
>
>Well, as a president of an
>organization and you have no
>idea what or where the
>money has gone? HMMMM??
>
>
>I hope this keeps going. I
>hope people can see the
>problem.
>
>And to make this clear, I
>am not ANTI SFW.
>I would like to see
>them do what is right.
>
>
>I Just hope I dont ever
>lose 1 of my 4
>boys while at Disneyland and
>say to myself, well, 3
>of 4 aint bad!
> LOL!!!
Well said robiland
> But like others said,
>it needs to go to
>a bigger source or paper
>or news channel to gain
>any ground. I love
>Dryflyelk's analogy. But 2Lumpy
>thinks all is well.
>GO BERNIE!!!
>
>Some of the things I liked
>were:
>
>Chris Carling, Chief Marketing Officer for
>SFW, suggested during a January
>2016 interview that any concerned
>members of the public, ?Attend
>the expo. It's a model
>trying to be emulated by
>every other state in the
>union.
>
>Wait, havent all the states said
>NO? If its been
>so great, you mean to
>tell me that in 10
>years not 1 other state
>has jumped on board?
>
>When asked how that money was
>spent, SFW President Jon Larson
>said that he guessed ?the
>majority of it? was spent
>on conservation. However, Larson only
>recently became president of SFW
>and could not say for
>sure.
>
>Well, as a president of an
>organization and you have no
>idea what or where the
>money has gone? HMMMM??
>
>
>I hope this keeps going. I
>hope people can see the
>problem.
>
>And to make this clear, I
>am not ANTI SFW.
>I would like to see
>them do what is right.
>
>
>I Just hope I dont ever
>lose 1 of my 4
>boys while at Disneyland and
>say to myself, well, 3
>of 4 aint bad!
> LOL!!!
Well said robiland
Hiker of the Woods
Active Member
- Messages
- 623
Here is the information you need to get involved. it was posted on another website by an attorney that is very involved in this. Please do what you can. In light of the KUTV News story last night, many sportsmen have asked what can I do to get involved? And what can I do to help? Here are a few simple things that anyone can do to help push this toward a resolution:
1. Share a link to the story with friends and family. Share it on social media. Get the word out that there is a problem. Many sportsmen wrongly assume that all of the money raised from the Expo Tags is earmarked for conservation. I have attached a link to the news story here: http://kutv.com/news/local/allegations-of-corruption-surround-utah-hungtin-and-conservation-expo
2. Contact your state legislators ask them to look into this issue. Send them a copy of this story. Ask them to request a legislative audit of the Expo Tag program. Let them know that other legislators are already looking into this problem. Make sure to send them a link KUTV News story. I have included a link to the state?s website to contact your legislators: http://le.utah.gov/documents/find.htm
3. Contact the Governor?s office and ask them to look into this issue. Send them a copy of the KUTV News story: http://www.utah.gov/governor/contact/
4. Send an email to the DWR and the Wildlife Board. I highly doubt that the DWR is going to do anything to remedy this problem given that they just signed a new 5-year agreement with SFW but they still need to hear from us. I sat in a meeting earlier this week with representatives from the DWR and the Governor?s office and they both stated that they assumed sportsmen were happy with the status quo because they have not heard from us. That comment was laughable but perhaps we have not been vocal enough. I have included the email addresses for the DWR and Wildlife Board members:
[email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]
If you don't use email, pick up the phone and call these folks. If you have time, do both. As you reach out to people and express your concerns, please remember to be polite and professional. Many of us have strong feelings on this issue but there is no value in personal attacks or name calling. Your comments and concerns are much more effective when they are sincere and factual.
Good luck and let your voices be heard.
Find Your Elected Officials:
https://www.nssf.org/GovRel/takeAction.cfm?officials
1. Share a link to the story with friends and family. Share it on social media. Get the word out that there is a problem. Many sportsmen wrongly assume that all of the money raised from the Expo Tags is earmarked for conservation. I have attached a link to the news story here: http://kutv.com/news/local/allegations-of-corruption-surround-utah-hungtin-and-conservation-expo
2. Contact your state legislators ask them to look into this issue. Send them a copy of this story. Ask them to request a legislative audit of the Expo Tag program. Let them know that other legislators are already looking into this problem. Make sure to send them a link KUTV News story. I have included a link to the state?s website to contact your legislators: http://le.utah.gov/documents/find.htm
3. Contact the Governor?s office and ask them to look into this issue. Send them a copy of the KUTV News story: http://www.utah.gov/governor/contact/
4. Send an email to the DWR and the Wildlife Board. I highly doubt that the DWR is going to do anything to remedy this problem given that they just signed a new 5-year agreement with SFW but they still need to hear from us. I sat in a meeting earlier this week with representatives from the DWR and the Governor?s office and they both stated that they assumed sportsmen were happy with the status quo because they have not heard from us. That comment was laughable but perhaps we have not been vocal enough. I have included the email addresses for the DWR and Wildlife Board members:
[email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]
If you don't use email, pick up the phone and call these folks. If you have time, do both. As you reach out to people and express your concerns, please remember to be polite and professional. Many of us have strong feelings on this issue but there is no value in personal attacks or name calling. Your comments and concerns are much more effective when they are sincere and factual.
Good luck and let your voices be heard.
Find Your Elected Officials:
https://www.nssf.org/GovRel/takeAction.cfm?officials
Bucksnorts
Member
- Messages
- 43
>Hi Hawkeye, after all that is
>being said for and against
>SFW. I was wondering if
>you would,
>tell me a story. Tell me
>and everyone else on here,
>your entire story from start
>to present day of your
>interactions with SFW.
>I have not become a SFW
>supporter or hater, nor a
>Hawkeye supporter or hater. I'm
>looking for answers. I've talked
>to several guys from SFW
>and Ive talked with you,
>(unlike some people on here
>that just want to take
>one side without looking into
>anything else). So I would
>like you to lay out
>what has gone on, to
>get you all to the
>point your at today.
>
>Thanks for your time
>Joe
>
>"Sometimes you do things wrong for
>so long you
>think their right" - 2001
>"I can't argue with honesty" -
>2005
>-Joe E Sikora
Joe,
It not hard to get the story of what you are asking if you will just go read all the posts he has made in multiple threads. Just read and you will figure out his perspective.
>being said for and against
>SFW. I was wondering if
>you would,
>tell me a story. Tell me
>and everyone else on here,
>your entire story from start
>to present day of your
>interactions with SFW.
>I have not become a SFW
>supporter or hater, nor a
>Hawkeye supporter or hater. I'm
>looking for answers. I've talked
>to several guys from SFW
>and Ive talked with you,
>(unlike some people on here
>that just want to take
>one side without looking into
>anything else). So I would
>like you to lay out
>what has gone on, to
>get you all to the
>point your at today.
>
>Thanks for your time
>Joe
>
>"Sometimes you do things wrong for
>so long you
>think their right" - 2001
>"I can't argue with honesty" -
>2005
>-Joe E Sikora
Joe,
It not hard to get the story of what you are asking if you will just go read all the posts he has made in multiple threads. Just read and you will figure out his perspective.
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,014
8mm-
Sportsmen are frustrated that the DWR and the conservation groups have only earmarked 30% of the revenues from the 200 Expo tags for actual conservation projects -- after allowing the groups to keep the full 100% for the first 6 years of the Expo. Many of us have been pushing for change for a long time but it has fallen on deaf ears. Therefore, frustrated sportsmen have began contacting the media and their policians in an effort to shine a light on this problem and hopefully get it fixed. As far as I know, there is no formal investigation -- just a bunch of frustrated sportmen trying to fix a problem.
Just a warning, be careful not to ask too many questions about the monies generated from your public tags or you too may get labeled a cry baby and an anti-hunter. ;-)
-Hawkeye-
Sportsmen are frustrated that the DWR and the conservation groups have only earmarked 30% of the revenues from the 200 Expo tags for actual conservation projects -- after allowing the groups to keep the full 100% for the first 6 years of the Expo. Many of us have been pushing for change for a long time but it has fallen on deaf ears. Therefore, frustrated sportsmen have began contacting the media and their policians in an effort to shine a light on this problem and hopefully get it fixed. As far as I know, there is no formal investigation -- just a bunch of frustrated sportmen trying to fix a problem.
Just a warning, be careful not to ask too many questions about the monies generated from your public tags or you too may get labeled a cry baby and an anti-hunter. ;-)
-Hawkeye-
>8mm-
>
>Sportsmen are frustrated that the DWR
>and the conservation groups have
>only earmarked 30% of the
>revenues from the 200 Expo
>tags for actual conservation projects
>-- after allowing the groups
>to keep the full 100%
>for the first 6 years
>of the Expo. Many
>of us have been pushing
>for change for a long
>time but it has fallen
>on deaf ears. Therefore,
>frustrated sportsmen have began contacting
>the media and their policians
>in an effort to shine
>a light on this problem
>and hopefully get it fixed.
> As far as I
>know, there is no formal
>investigation -- just a bunch
>of frustrated sportmen trying to
>fix a problem.
>
>Just a warning, be careful not
>to ask too many questions
>about the monies generated from
>your public tags or you
>too may get labeled a
>cry baby and an anti-hunter.
>;-)
>
>-Hawkeye-
So, do I understand this correctly. The first 6 years of the Expo all of the $5.00 paid for a chance to draw a tag at the Expo went to the conservation groups. And since year 7, 30% of the $5.00 paid for a chance to draw a tag at the Expo, is now being given back to the DWR for conservation projects. Am I correct?
>
>Sportsmen are frustrated that the DWR
>and the conservation groups have
>only earmarked 30% of the
>revenues from the 200 Expo
>tags for actual conservation projects
>-- after allowing the groups
>to keep the full 100%
>for the first 6 years
>of the Expo. Many
>of us have been pushing
>for change for a long
>time but it has fallen
>on deaf ears. Therefore,
>frustrated sportsmen have began contacting
>the media and their policians
>in an effort to shine
>a light on this problem
>and hopefully get it fixed.
> As far as I
>know, there is no formal
>investigation -- just a bunch
>of frustrated sportmen trying to
>fix a problem.
>
>Just a warning, be careful not
>to ask too many questions
>about the monies generated from
>your public tags or you
>too may get labeled a
>cry baby and an anti-hunter.
>;-)
>
>-Hawkeye-
So, do I understand this correctly. The first 6 years of the Expo all of the $5.00 paid for a chance to draw a tag at the Expo went to the conservation groups. And since year 7, 30% of the $5.00 paid for a chance to draw a tag at the Expo, is now being given back to the DWR for conservation projects. Am I correct?
LAST EDITED ON Mar-02-16 AT 02:33PM (MST)[p]It could be noted. Prior to the Expo. The DWR received 0% of these 200 permit application fees. These permits were in the general pool, and Nevada received the full 5 dollars to process the application. Now the DWR is getting some of the money and a lot of money to be used for wildlife projects. Yes the people and organizations who did all the work to make the expo a success do receive 70% of the expo money from application fees. Some of that money goes to the organizations who did all the work and make things happen. Some of the money goes to help wildlife projects, transplants, youth hunting and fishing opportunities, etc.
Not everyone is against the way things are currently working.
Most sportsmen don't really care.
Do I think some improvements could be made. Yes.
Not everyone is against the way things are currently working.
Most sportsmen don't really care.
Do I think some improvements could be made. Yes.
Robiland
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,075
Lets also be clear that these tags were given to them because they said they could raise alot of money for wildlife. MDF/SFW came and asked for the 200 tags in the name of conservation. 100% was kept, now 70% is kept. But you are right also, they dwr didnt realy make any money from these PUBLIC tags. But now SFW does. If thats the case, lets just put them all back into the draws.
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,014
Greg-
Not entirely true. The Nevada group charges the DWR just over $3 per application to conduct the general drawing, which is a much more complicated process than the Expo tag drawing. The DWR keeps the remainder of the application fee. Fallon does not keep the full amount. Plus, the DWR hired the Nevada group to conduct the general drawing because they thought Nevada could do a better job of it.
In contrast, the conservation groups convinced the DWR and the public to give them the 200 Expo Tags so that they could "generate revenues for wildlife conservation activities." When you deal with public assets you should expect to account for those assets.
You are comparing apples and oranges.
-Hawkeye-
Not entirely true. The Nevada group charges the DWR just over $3 per application to conduct the general drawing, which is a much more complicated process than the Expo tag drawing. The DWR keeps the remainder of the application fee. Fallon does not keep the full amount. Plus, the DWR hired the Nevada group to conduct the general drawing because they thought Nevada could do a better job of it.
In contrast, the conservation groups convinced the DWR and the public to give them the 200 Expo Tags so that they could "generate revenues for wildlife conservation activities." When you deal with public assets you should expect to account for those assets.
You are comparing apples and oranges.
-Hawkeye-
I have to take exception with the statement made by huntin50 that most hunters don't care. You must not be on many hunting websites because this is being talked about on numerous sites and MANY people from Utah and elsewhere throughout the country, and especially the western states, are appalled at what is going on with the public trust involving those 200 Utah tags.
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,014
8mm-
The groups generated $8,598,395 from 2007 through 2015, plus another $1 million plus in 2016 (the exact numbers for 2016 have not been released yet).
It's just 9 or 10 million dollars that was supposedly for wildlife conservation activities . . no big deal . . . move on . . . nothing to worry about.
-Hawkeye-
The groups generated $8,598,395 from 2007 through 2015, plus another $1 million plus in 2016 (the exact numbers for 2016 have not been released yet).
It's just 9 or 10 million dollars that was supposedly for wildlife conservation activities . . no big deal . . . move on . . . nothing to worry about.
-Hawkeye-
LAST EDITED ON Mar-02-16 AT 02:53PM (MST)[p]>Does anyone know the number of
>$5.00 chances purchased at the
>Expo? #of chances purchased X
>$5.00=??? money. Be interesting to
>know this amount of money
>being generated every year for
>10 years!
We're talking on average one million dollars a year being raised by those $5 fees! Therefore, SFW is taking home, on average, $750,000 to do with whatever they please year after year and before that the entire million!
>$5.00 chances purchased at the
>Expo? #of chances purchased X
>$5.00=??? money. Be interesting to
>know this amount of money
>being generated every year for
>10 years!
We're talking on average one million dollars a year being raised by those $5 fees! Therefore, SFW is taking home, on average, $750,000 to do with whatever they please year after year and before that the entire million!
Tristate
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,883
I know a whole mess of people who are serious hunters who hunt in Utah, many more than post on the internet and not a single one of them cares about the percentage of money SFW receives from these tags.
The worlds majority opinion isn't voiced on a hunting forum.
The worlds majority opinion isn't voiced on a hunting forum.
>8mm-
>
>The groups generated $8,598,395 from 2007
>through 2015, plus another $1
>million plus in 2016 (the
>exact numbers for 2016 have
>not been released yet).
>
>It's just 9 or 10 million
>dollars that was supposedly for
>wildlife conservation activities . .
>no big deal . .
>. move on . .
>. nothing to worry about.
>
>
>-Hawkeye-
9.5-10 Million given to whom, or what groups specifically! Sorry for seeming ignorant here.
>
>The groups generated $8,598,395 from 2007
>through 2015, plus another $1
>million plus in 2016 (the
>exact numbers for 2016 have
>not been released yet).
>
>It's just 9 or 10 million
>dollars that was supposedly for
>wildlife conservation activities . .
>no big deal . .
>. move on . .
>. nothing to worry about.
>
>
>-Hawkeye-
9.5-10 Million given to whom, or what groups specifically! Sorry for seeming ignorant here.
