Expo Tags Article

LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-16 AT 07:51PM (MST)[p]>I did know what was in
>both contract bids. I
>just wasn't going to pic
>one little paragraph from one
>report and decide that was
>all I needed to know.
> You were a food
>investigator. You weren't some
>FBI badass. You made
>sure the tomatoes at the
>grocery were good. YOU
>DON'T KNOW CRAP. YOU
>AREN'T A TOUGH GUY.
>YOU AREN'T GOING TO SOLVE
>SOME BIG CRIME BY POUNDING
>SEARCHES INTO YOUR GOOGLER.


Then why do you spout the BS you do like you have no idea what was in them because your one post does exactly that?! I have no idea what "one little paragraph" you're talking about, but you're full of horse manure! You have no idea what I did for the majority of my 30+ year LE Investigative career and most of it had nothing to do with food! You are the one that doesn't know crap about a subject, are sniffing too much glue in the shop, and need to crawl back in your hole! All you are is a troll that comes on every thread no matter what is being discussed in an attempt to hijack it and make it all about you! Wow, now I'm wallowing with the pig and better bail out and go take a shower!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-16 AT 08:01PM (MST)[p]>What's this? A level head on
>MM?
>I need to meet this DC
>dude some day!
>
>
>Mike, I'm waiting to hear your
>correction of the very incorrect
>post of desert Brian's. You
>have a real propensity to
>correct folks. Let's see if
>this time, Michael.
>
>Zeke


And what post with what statement might that be? I've been off the site for a while and haven't even read any of his posts that appear to have been made late this evening.
 
Mike,
You've got to go back beyond Brian's cut and paste posts to get to his original post about Alaska hunting lodge.
See what you can figure out or continue to play like you can't figure it out.
Zeke
 
DeLoss, SFW can keep raising money, doing projects, donating to politicians, kicking ass and making hay. Just account for the $1 million plus that SFW and MDF are making off of our public tags each year. Is that too much to ask?

Kenny, I have no idea what you are alluding to so just spit it out. I am guessing that you heard something from a friend who heard something from a friend. I have had numerous conversations with SFW leaders over the years - most of which have been polite and professional. I do not post up what is said in those personal conversations. However, nobody from SFW has ever offered to have me review the SFW books - if that is what you are suggesting. Nor do I want to review SFW's books. I am not an accountant. Heck, I can barely even do math. That is why the DWR should perform an annual audit the Expo tag application fees just like they already do for the conservation permit funds.

-Hawkeye
 
Yep Hawkeye; it's such a simple request that would easily put this matter to rest and the only reason that people can fathom that it hasn't been done is because of wrongdoing as to where a big part of the money is going! What else could it possibly be folks?!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-16 AT 08:47PM (MST)[p]What ever you want to say. I know different. Not from a friend from a friend either. And you all ready know the money from the $5 tags goes into a separate account and is under the direction of the dwr. Why don't you tell the mm people that are spreading stuff you know is false that it is false? As I look at what you are doing I am starting to think you are jealous of Don Peay. No on second thought I know you are.
Oh and by the way, the kool-aid must be pretty darn good. More and more people are drinking it. Good night
 
Extreme large problems require extremely large sums of funding. Politicians create policy, and control regulations, in countless different ways and through countless different methods, FOR AND AGAINST YOUR AND MY OUTDOOR/WILDLIFE INTERESTS AND LIFE STYLE.

If your going to accomplish, ANYTHING, for or against, present and future hunting and fishing issues, you damn well better be as deeply involved in politics as your panties will allow you to get.

We can scream, cry, belch, beller, bawl, squall, b!tch, twitch, and spew, on social media, to the newspapers, to your legislator, to the neighbor, to you wife and your girl friend, or anyone else, that; "playing politics over biology" is stupid, evil, dangerous, misguided, and unethical until the proverbial "cats come home", but it still will not, can not, and never will, change the reality of the American system, where by all public regulations are made by elected officials and the bureaucracies these politicians create. If you're going to play big, you are going to be in the mud with those that make the rules. If you haven't come to understand that............check with the Bundy folks. Sh!tty, yes. Reality?............Hell yes.

Big job! Bring big money! Bring a big stick! Be prepared to hit with every ounce of strength you can gather and be prepared get hit back harder!

As Taya Kyle said on Friday night, "No matter what you do, someone is going to hate you for it!"

These millions SFW is raising and spending, on "POLITICAL WILDLIFE HUNTING CONSERVATION" is peanuts, ya, chicken feed, compared to the money, power and influence the anti's are raising and spending on the political process!

Question..........how much in "Consulting Fees" is enough to pay someone to "stand in the gate" on your behalf, to defend your lifestyle? $5, $100, $500,000, $1,000,000? What's it worth to you? What if we have to pay a $1,000,000 to the executive directors on 10 different wildlife hunting conservation organizations? Would that be worth it, to safe our life style for future generations? $10,000,000?

Is it worth that, to you?

Especially, when your only being asked for a $100 or so per year, while some guy that owns a car dealership, or a clothing company, or a pro-hockey team, or a lead mine, or a chain of restaurants, is willing to give the org. a million dollars a year to kill a water locked deer in a State park or a couple of dozen elk on Federal Forest land.

What's it worth! What are you willing to "pay" to keep your life style?

And one more thing..................500 pound gorillas cost a hell of a lot, in case you haven't noticed what Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, and the rest of the highly successful business people in the world have accumulated for their "consulting fees" to their stock holders.

Course, their are a few folks that "hate" the Bill Gates/Steve Jobs technology they use to communicate on, and resent the money that guys that provide it, earn for their expertise. Go figure!

Still more......lots more. What kind of an idiot would a guy who is fighting off the anti's every day (politician and philosophically) be, if he open his checking resister, and revealed his every expenditure, that lay out his strategies, to protect hunting wildlife, to anyone, beyond the very limit that is required by law?

To suggest that using a percentage of the revenue that is raised by the org. by any means they have at their disposal, be it from public or private sources, to build future herds and hunting opportunities, because it's not specific to "dirt" / "on the ground" conservation because it is outside the "scope" of true wildlife conservation is naive to the reality of what is necessary to plant more bitter brush, transfer mt. goats, increase turkey populations, build guzzlers for desert chukars, elk and deer, and is dangerously narrow minded. Any conservation group that isn't spending some of there revenue, raised for either public or private sources, on other tha "dirt projects" is not worth a pound of salt.

To ask for and even demand that the org comply with the laws of the land? Absolutely! To demand that they share one iota of the strategic use of the funds that are raised, by any source, beyond what is required by law, is ridiculous at the least, and naive at best.

As Zeke SO SIMPLY AND CLEARLY said, if you don't want to donate, don't. If you mistrust, "go else where". If you don't like what the State politicians are doing with State resources (State tags) (ya, the State owns the tags) vote for someone else, we'll see you at the voting booths in November, my goriila against yours".

Ya, Zeke's right, as usual.

DC
 
Kenny-

So let me get this straight. You apparently know more than me about some alleged conversation that I was supposedly a party to but you were not? You lost me buddy. Stop alluding to things you know nothing about. If someone within SFW had offered to show me the books I would say so. That has never been what I was asking for, nor is it a solution to the problem l, but I certainly would have no reason to keep that a secret.

So you are telling me that the 70% of the $5 application fees that the groups currently pocket goes into a separate account under the direction of the DWR? That makes no sense. I think you have your wires crossed again.

And finally, so I am jealous of Don Peay? That is a classic SFW response. Dodge the real issues and go into "martyr mode." I could give two craps about Don Peay. As soon as Don starts accounting for our public funds, we will get along just fine.

-Hawkeye-
 
" if you don't want to donate, don't."

I don't want to donate 200 tags to an org that will lobby to reduce hunting opportunity for the sake of trophies.

" if you don't want to donate, don't."

I don't want to donate 200 tags to an org that was, as you pointed out, on the wrong side of the stream access issue.

"if you don't want to donate, don't."

I don't want to donate to an org or any other entity that thinks greasy ass purchased politicians are wildlife biologists.

"if you don't want to donate, don't."

I don't want to donate to any org that thinks their Board is the deciding factor for these funds. Are we giving these funds to Noel and Ivory to steal public lands?? Are we spending these dollars on projects that are Federally matched and leveraged?? We'll never know cause they won't tell and people like you blindly support with no accountability. Talk about selfish bruised little ego's. They push your agenda, piss on everyone else right??

"if you don't want to donate, don't."

Finally I will never in a million years donate to a group that believes the most successful model for managing game on this planet is bullchit.

DC the sportsmen in this state have no choice because of the corrupt crony system your 500 lb gorilla has implemented.



"WE USED TO HUNT GAME TO MANAGE, NOW WE MANAGE TO HUNT"
Finn 2/14/16
 
And that my wise friend is the problem.

We should be arguing if restrictive buck deer harvest increases herds or decreases fecundity.

Politicians could give a rats ass less about anything but themselves and the next election.

It would be a hell of a lot easier to get this train back on the tracks if the people that are wise enough to know better, like yourself, would quit burying the damn throttle in to every turn.





"WE USED TO HUNT GAME TO
MANAGE, NOW WE MANAGE TO
HUNT"
Finn 2/14/16
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-16 AT 11:18PM (MST)[p]The mule deer throttle has been welded down for years. Not going anywhere!

And now they've locked the elk throttle down as well. 80,000......60,000.......40,000......20,000?

Y'all will get to kill all the Mt. Goats that have been moved to the LaSal Mountains soon enough. Mary's working on it for you, with big money and political power. All the best on that one too, she's not against killing them State wide.

There was a time, but I'll never get behind the wheel again, if I'd been at the throttle there'd have been no turns, it would've been full bore, full out.

Too little, too late!

Gate's open!

DC
 
>Extreme large problems require extremely large
>sums of funding. Politicians
>create policy, and control regulations,
>in countless different ways and
>through countless different methods, FOR
>AND AGAINST YOUR AND MY
>OUTDOOR/WILDLIFE INTERESTS AND LIFE STYLE.
>
>
>If your going to accomplish, ANYTHING,
>for or against, present and
>future hunting and fishing issues,
>you damn well better be
>as deeply involved in politics
>as your panties will allow
>you to get.
>
>We can scream, cry, belch, beller,
>bawl, squall, b!tch, twitch, and
>spew, on social media, to
>the newspapers, to your legislator,
>to the neighbor, to you
>wife and your girl friend,
>or anyone else, that;
>"playing politics over biology" is
>stupid, evil, dangerous, misguided, and
>unethical until the proverbial "cats
>come home", but it still
>will not, can not, and
>never will, change the reality
>of the American system, where
>by all public regulations are
>made by elected officials and
>the bureaucracies these politicians create.
> If you're going to
>play big, you are going
>to be in the mud
>with those that make the
>rules. If you haven't
>come to understand that............check with
>the Bundy folks. Sh!tty,
>yes. Reality?............Hell yes.
>
>Big job! Bring big money!
> Bring a big stick!
> Be prepared to hit
>with every ounce of strength
>you can gather and be
>prepared get hit back harder!
>
>
>As Taya Kyle said on Friday
>night, "No matter what you
>do, someone is going to
>hate you for it!"
>
>These millions SFW is raising and
>spending, on "POLITICAL WILDLIFE HUNTING
>CONSERVATION" is peanuts, ya, chicken
>feed, compared to the money,
>power and influence the anti's
>are raising and spending on
>the political process!
>
>Question..........how much in "Consulting Fees" is
>enough to pay someone to
>"stand in the gate" on
>your behalf, to defend your
>lifestyle? $5, $100,
>$500,000, $1,000,000? What's
>it worth to you?
>What if we have to
>pay a $1,000,000 to the
>executive directors on 10 different
>wildlife hunting conservation organizations?
>Would that be worth it,
>to safe our life style
>for future generations? $10,000,000?
>
>
>Is it worth that, to you?
>
>
>Especially, when your only being asked
>for a $100 or so
>per year, while some guy
>that owns a car dealership,
>or a clothing company, or
>a pro-hockey team, or a
>lead mine, or a chain
>of restaurants, is willing to
>give the org. a million
>dollars a year to kill
>a water locked deer in
>a State park or a
>couple of dozen elk on
>Federal Forest land.
>
>What's it worth! What are
>you willing to "pay" to
>keep your life style?
>
>And one more thing..................500 pound gorillas
>cost a hell of a
>lot, in case you haven't
>noticed what Warren Buffet, Bill
>Gates, and the rest of
>the highly successful business people
>in the world have accumulated
>for their "consulting fees" to
>their stock holders.
>
>Course, their are a few folks
>that "hate" the Bill Gates/Steve
>Jobs technology they use to
>communicate on, and resent the
>money that guys that provide
>it, earn for their expertise.
> Go figure!
>
>Still more......lots more. What kind
>of an idiot would a
>guy who is fighting off
>the anti's every day (politician
>and philosophically) be, if
>he open his checking resister,
>and revealed his every expenditure,
>that lay out his strategies,
>to protect hunting wildlife, to
>anyone, beyond the very limit
>that is required by law?
>
>
>To suggest that using a percentage
>of the revenue that is
>raised by the org. by
>any means they have at
>their disposal, be it from
>public or private sources, to
>build future herds and hunting
>opportunities, because it's not specific
>to "dirt" / "on the
>ground" conservation because it is
>outside the "scope" of true
>wildlife conservation is naive to
>the reality of what is
>necessary to plant more bitter
>brush, transfer mt. goats, increase
>turkey populations, build guzzlers for
>desert chukars, elk and deer,
>and is dangerously narrow minded.
> Any conservation group that
>isn't spending some of there
>revenue, raised for either public
>or private sources, on other
>tha "dirt projects" is not
>worth a pound of salt.
>
>
>To ask for and even demand
>that the org comply with
>the laws of the land?
>Absolutely! To demand that
>they share one iota of
>the strategic use of the
>funds that are raised, by
>any source, beyond what is
>required by law, is ridiculous
>at the least, and naive
>at best.
>
>As Zeke SO SIMPLY AND CLEARLY
>said, if you don't want
>to donate, don't. If
>you mistrust, "go else where".
> If you don't like
>what the State politicians are
>doing with State resources (State
>tags) (ya, the State owns
>the tags) vote for someone
>else, we'll see you at
>the voting booths in November,
>my goriila against yours".
>
>Ya, Zeke's right, as usual.
>
>DC

"Extremely large sums of funding".

Per the UDWR 2015 budget Revenue types chart:
1) Restricted Funds (licenses and permits)- $36,409,154
2) Federal Funds (tax on ammo, guns, bows)- $25,681,768
3) Dedicated Funds (donations & DWR ops) - $13,094,704
4) General Funds (State income taxes) - $5,983,309
Total - $81,168,943

So, SFW is directly responsible for about 4%($3M)of UDWR's funding, while the remaining organizations are directly responsible for about another 4% ($3M) and us fools on the welfare bus (including hunters and non-hunters) are pretty much responsible for the remaining 92% of UDWR's funding. So, who should have the biggest voice?

The ends justify the means? In your world maybe, but not in mine! I have a family, friends and a God who thinks otherwise. I, for one, won't drink whiskey with anyone, let alone the Devil just to support one of my hobbies.

If you and SFW are so dead set on complying with the law when it comes to disclosure of spending, why didn't the DWR, the Expo Partners and the Wildlife Board follow their own regulations when issuing the contract? I guess they're allowed to pick and chose which laws, rules and regulations to obey, huh?

Also, I've noticed that Tristate is so adamant about what Hawkeye's "real" goal/motive is that he even reads minds. I also noticed that he hasn't even asked you what your "real" goal/ motive is. Care to elaborate? If not, maybe we can get Tristate to read your mind as well. After all, we should be able to hear both sides of the issue.

Tomorrow, huh?
 
Some times, when your position is so strong, the opposing side does their best to cloud the issue and/or create little irrelevant side topics that they think they might possibly be able to win on. When that occurs, it is important to simply re-state the core facts that are the crux of the issue.

Unfortunately for SWF/MDF and their proponents, no rational person would ever think the facts below (re-stated from earlier in this thread) are acceptable.


1)UDWR chose to accept the SFW/MDF/UFNAWS proposal over that of RMEF despite the following facts:

RMEF = 100% of Expo application fees to wildlife.
SFW/MDF/UFNAWS = 30% of Expo application fees to wildlife.
RMEF = 50% of net Expo funds to wildlife.
SFW/MDF/UFNAWS = 0% of net Expo funds to wildlife.

RMEF = 100% of auctioned tag income to wildlife. (Done nationwide since 2014, per 2.3.3. of RMEF bid.)
SFW/MDF/UFNAWS = 90% of auctioned tag income to wildlife. (No increase above mandated amount previously done or offered.) (The Antelope Island deer tag alone could have delivered $41,000 more to wildlife under RMEF's auction than under SWF/MDF/UNAWS's auction.)

2)SFW/MDF has never accounted for $7,450,716 generated from the sale of dearly held public assets (big game tags).

2007-2012 - 0% transparency - 0 out of $5,436,655 accounted for.
2013-2015 - 30% transparency - $1,147,678.84 out of $3,161,740 accounted for.
2007-2015 - $1,147,678.84 out of $8,598,395 accounted for.

SFW/MDF and their proponents can talk all they want, but it is simply impossible to overcome these appalling facts.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-16 AT 05:41AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-16 AT 05:40?AM (MST)

Desert,
Lmfao????

Topgun,
Also says LOL.....A LOT!!!!

But for guys doing so much laughing ya'll sure seem to only be whining and throwing little fits. Top says helll yes he's winnings. Well if that's the case he's sure pissed off constantly for someone that feels they are winning. INTERWEB fighters and cryers. Fixing ABSOLUTLY NOTHING with 100 posts a day.

Another successful Expo for the SFW and 15 more sold out Banquets to go in the state. Some DO and some complain. I guess I was raised to base my efforts on results. Take the tags and those involved will stay involved because it's their nature to drive for results, those that are whining and crying will find something else to whine and cry about its their nature.
 
Alright I keep seeing some mathamagicians throwing numbers around but they don't actually understand numbers so let me help.


If you have an AI tag and RMEF can sell it and give the DWR %100 of the proceeds or SFW can sell it and get you %90 of the proceeds which one do you want? This is where short sighted people jump up and scream RMEF. However if people that know how to do math ask "Well how much is RMEF going to get for it"? Well if RMEF thinks the yare going to get 300k well that's pretty good. But if SFW gets 400k guess what you would lose 60K. Wow how does that work boys and girls? Do you mean that someone can give a smaller percentage but more money?????? Exactly boys and girls.


Let me ask you kids something what do you think would happen to the expo/SFW/MDF if RMEF brought their convention and got the state tags? This is going to require you to think like a competing business and I know that's hard but you need to answer this. Why do you think RMEF isn't going to move its convention to SLC without the tags? Again you have to think like a competing business and not a child but I think you can do this?
 
In response to Birdman's suggestion that I am jealous of Don Peay, I thought it would be fun to post my three favorite Don Peay quotes. A little history lesson of sorts.

Quote #1 is Mr. Peay's decription of the North American Conservation model as "socialism." Mr. Peay went on to state that "When wildlife is a very highly valued asset, people want more of it and they'll invest additional funds to make sure it's abundant." Then he expressed his preference for guides and outfitters over the average sportsman: "They tend to be more involved to make sure there's abundant game herds than a lot of guys who just buy their license the day before the hunt starts and then, when game disappears, the masses tend to complain -- but what did they do to allow that situation to happen and why weren't they more involved to fix it?" See http://www.adn.com/article/20120303...2/03/03/235050...#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy

Quote #2 is Mr. Peay's statement that HB 141, which closed stream access for sportsmen and the public in 2010 before being declared unconstitutional in 2015, was the the result of "a handful of greedy fly fishermen getting too greedy."

Quote #3 is perhaps my all-time favorite. During the March 31, 2005 Wildlife Board Meeting, where the Expo tags were created, Mr. Peay made the following statement the Wildlife Board, the DWR and the public in response to concerns expressed about what SFW and the other groups were going to do with the money raised from the Expo tags: "Mr. Peay said it is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground." 3/31/2005 Board Meeting Minutes at 22. My how times have changed. The public has now spent 10 years fighting with SFW and MDF to find out how much of the nearly $10 million raised actually "went onto the ground" - to use Mr. Peay's words.

Yes Birdman, I am jealous.

-Hawkeye-
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-16 AT 08:10AM (MST)[p]"If you have an AI tag and RMEF can sell it and give the DWR %100 of the proceeds or SFW can sell it and get you %90 of the proceeds which one do you want? This is where short sighted people jump up and scream RMEF. However if people that know how to do math ask "Well how much is RMEF going to get for it"? Well if RMEF thinks the yare going to get 300k well that's pretty good. But if SFW gets 400k guess what you would lose 60K. Wow how does that work boys and girls? Do you mean that someone can give a smaller percentage but more money?????? Exactly boys and girls."

What an completely asinine statement.

What ifs. My 4 years niece is always asking what ifs.

Hey Pig, are you some kind of a magical fairy? How do you know how much RMEF could get for a tag? Try and state facts Boy, not what ifs.
 
Hawks a typical lawyer. Avoids the truth to win the case. Why don't you correct people when the truth is not said. Fact is you do not want the truth out. Do I stand by my say that you are jealous of Don. Yep. To bad your not interested in people knowing the truth. What was it you said, not your problem.
To top, the kool-aid must be pretty darn good. More and more true hunters come to drink it. Records in every way.
With a few of you trying to put SFW out of business why would SFW open there books to all. The independent audit done on SFW in 2014 showed 88 cents of every dollar went on the ground. Looks like the audit for 2015 will even be higher.
 
Shotgun,

I think you might have just made a little sense there!

The SFW was detailed with there Proposal and RMEF had a lot of "what ifs". Sounds like you personally don't like "what ifs". Looks to me that committee didn't either.
 
Birdboy-

Please show me what I said that was not true? You keep referring to consversations that you admit you were not a party to. As I explained above, nobody from SFW ever invited me to flyspeck the SFW books, and I never asked to do that. What I asked for has always been the same -- for the groups to account for the millions of dollars in application fees raised from our public Expo tags. Try to stay focused.

With regard to your question about why I don't "correct people when the truth is not said," now I assume that you are referring to my conversation last summer with an SFW Board Member who I will not name out of courtesy to him. During our conversation, this board member asked me if I would try to settle things down on this forum. My response to him was that I try to be careful and factual in what I post. However, I recognize that some guys on both sides of the issue go off half cocked from time to time and post comments that may not be entirely accurate. I am not the referee on this forum and it is not my job to play fact checker with everything that is said. I told that same board member, if somebody on this forum posts something that is not accurate or that SFW disagrees with with, that him or anybody else from SFW can certainly log on and dispute it. Lumpy, Muley73 and others do a pretty good job of defending SFW, although there is no real defense to the core criticism -- the lack of accountability and transparency with the money raised from our public tags.

Is that the alleged statement that is bothering you? If so, get over it. If I post something that is not true then point it out. I have been wrong before, but unlike you, I at least try to dig into the facts before I make statements and accusations. If somebody else says something about SFW that you disagree with then take it up with them. That is not my problem.

-Hawkeye-
 
My point is that you bunch of haters think betting on percentages is a sure thing when in reality it is nothing more than a giant "WHAT IF".

There is a little less "what if" with SFW because they have a proven track record. Politicians don't like increasing the odds of the "what if" especially with an un proven out of state company.

Shortgun people who actually run businesses have to bet on the "what ifs" every day. Why don't you go away and let the big people discuss this.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-16 AT 10:12AM (MST)[p]>My point is that you bunch
>of haters think betting on
>percentages is a sure thing
>when in reality it is
>nothing more than a giant
>"WHAT IF".
>
>There is a little less "what
>if" with SFW because they
>have a proven track record.
> Politicians don't like increasing
>the odds of the "what
>if" especially with an un
>proven out of state company.
>
>
>Shortgun people who actually run businesses
>have to bet on the
>"what ifs" every day.
>Why don't you go away
>and let the big people
>discuss this.


The big people ha someone's a little full of himself get off your high horse
The haters what are you guys rappers now English please

Again what exactly has sfw accomplished for utah over the years besides a small project here and there especially as of late.
 
Some times, when your position is so strong, the opposing side does their best to cloud the issue and/or create little irrelevant side topics that they think they might possibly be able to win on. When that occurs, it is important to simply re-state the core facts that are the crux of the issue.

Unfortunately for SWF/MDF and their proponents, no rational person would ever think the facts below (re-stated from earlier in this thread) are acceptable.


1)UDWR chose to accept the SFW/MDF/UFNAWS proposal over that of RMEF despite the following facts:

RMEF = 100% of Expo application fees to wildlife.
SFW/MDF/UFNAWS = 30% of Expo application fees to wildlife.
RMEF = 50% of net Expo funds to wildlife.
SFW/MDF/UFNAWS = 0% of net Expo funds to wildlife.

RMEF = 100% of auctioned tag income to wildlife. (Done nationwide since 2014, per 2.3.3. of RMEF bid.)
SFW/MDF/UFNAWS = 90% of auctioned tag income to wildlife. (No increase above mandated amount previously done or offered.) (The Antelope Island deer tag alone could have delivered $41,000 more to wildlife under RMEF's auction than under SWF/MDF/UNAWS's auction.)

2)SFW/MDF has never accounted for $7,450,716 generated from the sale of dearly held public assets (big game tags).

2007-2012 - 0% transparency - 0 out of $5,436,655 accounted for.
2013-2015 - 30% transparency - $1,147,678.84 out of $3,161,740 accounted for.
2007-2015 - $1,147,678.84 out of $8,598,395 accounted for.

SFW/MDF and their proponents can talk all they want, but it is simply impossible to overcome these appalling facts.

Keep dancing around this!
 
Deerlove,

Go back and read. I already showed how making fiscal decisions on percentages only can be a recipe for loss and money left on the table. Making a business decision only on a percentage guarantee is grossly irresponsible. These guys are running a business. I am glad they are doing it and not you.

Dance around that.
 
Tristate-

If what you are saying is true and the state cannot award a contract based upon estimates, projections and representations, then why even bother with the contract renewal and RFP process? Why not simply come out and admit that the State of Utah intends to keep the contract with their buddies (SFW/MDF) for as long as they want to host the expo? That is essentially what the state is saying through the way the RFP was drafted. It is also confirmed by the fact that the DWR recently amended the rule to allow the 5-year contract to be extended for an additional 5 years. Publicly the DWR is telling people that these changes are meant to promote competitition and a level-playing field by the actual result is just the opposite. Actions speak louder than words.

-Hawkeye-
 
Actually Hawkeye that couldn't be further from what I said. Go back and read. I am showing that people like you and others keep quoting what the percentage would have been if RMEF were awarded the contract and my point is THATS NOT AN ESTIMATE OR A PROJECTION. You can't look at that and decide who you think is going to give you the most money.
 
>Actually Hawkeye that couldn't be further
>from what I said.
>Go back and read.
>I am showing that people
>like you and others keep
>quoting what the percentage would
>have been if RMEF were
>awarded the contract and my
>point is THATS NOT AN
>ESTIMATE OR A PROJECTION.
>You can't look at that
>and decide who you think
>is going to give you
>the most

Why not 100% to 30% seams pretty clear cut and dry

Especially with $fw track record on with what they have been doing with the moneys.

Again please tell us tristate what has sfw done for us lately.

I wouldn't be suprised if it was 5% they are giving back if they would open their doors to their dark closet
 
And I don't want to here their political conservation bull crap. The politicians in utah already know the asset they have in our public wildlife resourses. You know it as well as everyone else that's SFW's protection plan. Their scape goat.

Bottom line they hide their dollars there is no transparency on what they do with the public's money and they hide behind SOME of the Utah politicians

Name one scenerio where that has ever ended well. Corruption always gets exposed it might take a while but the wheels are rolling.
 
Hawkeye. Read again. You know there is much lies or non truths that are said here on mm. That is in general. Why don't you correct the false statements made, the non truths that people make. Only because you do not want the truth to be known.
Now have a good day. Time to get more things done.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-16 AT 01:04PM (MST)[p]>Hawkeye. Read again. You know
>there is much lies or
>non truths that are said
>here on mm. That
>is in general. Why
>don't you correct the false
>statements made, the non truths
>that people make. Only
>because you do not want
>the truth to be known.
>
> Now have
>a good day. Time
>to get more things done.
>

Hawkeye isn't a Moderator on this Forum to do as you're stating and if there have been any false statements by people why don't you list them so we can take a look and correct them if we're wrong?
 
Michael,
You KNOW so much yet you've still never corrected desertpointbrian"s false post.
Come on man, do your job here by correcting everything, not just the self-selective posts to which you disagree.

I'm still waiting.

Zeke
 
Birdy,

Why dont you correct the truths or lies on here? Why does Hawkeye? Why dont you become a moderator and fix all the lies on here. But 1st start with fixing the lies and corruption with your all mighty SFW?
 
Robiland,
Here's the problem as I see it:
Neither "side" wants to take responsibility here on MM for bull sh!t posts. Neither side will correct the misconceptions and misinformation that's flying around. They either don't know the truth or they'd rather let the BS fly as opposed to correcting anything.
This issue is too divisive to make a bit of progress on MM
Case in point: I tried to give your brother-in-law a compliment and tophat jumped down my throat. Plick!
So, where do we go from here?

Do both sides of this issue continue to allow the lies and half-truths pass as the truth.

Zeke
 
Zeke,

So what lies has been told by Jason? Hes the one doing most of the facts on here. But it does sound like somebody knows more than Jason himself. He keeps asking for the truth and to correct the truth. I agree, alot of BS going on. BUT, the bs cant stop if we dont stand up and say something. The funny thing is there are LOTS of people who had no idea about any of the "stuff" going on with SFW/DWR/RMEF. They all thought everything is great.

I have had several conversations with people who are pissed and want to do something. I have told them to write/email people. But guess what, with the letters I have sent and emailed to the DWR, they send back a letter saying thanks and come get involved. Well, when we do, they wont listen. So now the Monster Muleys is the only place left to complain :)
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-16 AT 02:09PM (MST)[p]So point them out Zeke you get half lies and half truths when you have an organization like sfw that is so secretive about everything they do financially.

It's an easy fix for sfw that could benefit us all. They do the right thing going forward and get back to their roots when they first started out and that is put utahs wildlife first and foremost with utahs expo dollars.i could care less what they do in alaska.


They over the years have gotten drunk on power and politically tied into a rats nest.

I guarantee if they were transparent going forward and actually did some improvements to utahs wildlife all of this garbage would go away and the general public would care less who held the expo as long as they knew it was handled correctly not that hard to figure out. But pride and egos for lesser men is a hard thing to overcome
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-16 AT 01:56PM (MST)[p]At the end of the day, this is the issue:

SFW, MDF and the DWR have taken 200 premium tags out of the public draw to "generate revenues for wildlife conservation activities." On average, the groups generate about $1 million a year in $5 application fees. For the first 6 years, they accounted for zero dollars. That's right, not one red cent. After sportsmen (including mnay on this website) threw a fit, the groups started accounting for 30% of the application fees starting in 2013. As a result, the numbers are as follows:

2007-2012 - 0% transparency - 0 out of $5,436,655 accounted for.
2013-2015 - 30% transparency - $1,147,678.84 out of $3,161,740 accounted for.
2007-2015 - $1,147,678.84 out of $8,598,395 accounted for.

Show me what is false or misleading in this post or any other post from me on this issue. Thanks.

-Hawkeye-
 
>Zeke,
>
>So what lies has been told
>by Jason? Hes the
>one doing most of the
>facts on here. But
>it does sound like somebody
>knows more than Jason himself.
> He keeps asking for
>the truth and to correct
>the truth. I agree,
>alot of BS going on.
> BUT, the bs cant
>stop if we dont stand
>up and say something.
>The funny thing is there
>are LOTS of people who
>had no idea about any
>of the "stuff" going on
>with SFW/DWR/RMEF. They all
>thought everything is great.
>
>I have had several conversations with
>people who are pissed and
>want to do something.
>I have told them to
>write/email people. But guess
>what, with the letters I
>have sent and emailed to
>the DWR, they send back
>a letter saying thanks and
>come get involved. Well,
>when we do, they wont
>listen. So now the
>Monster Muleys is the only
>place left to complain :)

Robiland
Wait, don't do the topgun thing and think I directed that at Hawkeye. Everyone is a little sensitive and touchy on this subject so I'll start over.

Hawkeye seems like an honorable soul who's intentions are pure and goes out of his way to NOT insult people because he has enough education, common sense and decency to act better. Beyond that, I don't know his motives so I cannot say. there!

I didn't say HE lied but only that lies are contained in this thread and not a soul has called anyone on the carpet if it benefits his side of the topic. Both sides have spewed yarns!

Lets take a look at one of desertpointbrian's posts from awhile back in this thread (about #85). NOT A SOUL will correct his post, either because they don't know the truth or they don't want to bother for whatever reason.

I KNOW what SFW owns for outfitting and I KNOW where it's located and I KNOW from where the money came and why it was purchased but no one will post it and not a soul cares about the truth. Again either because they don't know or they don't care if the post is false because it supports their side of the argument and make for delicious reading albeit misleading, at best, and a total lie, at worst. THAT's the problem on the interweb and MM is the worst.

This is just one example of how all the lies and half-truths get started, by BOTH sides. Next thing you know, someone will be clicking and pasting his post when he has zero desire for the facts but loves to hear himself spout.

Ain't the internet fun? We cannot survive and make real change on BS and half-truths!

Zeke
 
>Michael,
>You KNOW so much yet you've
>still never corrected desertpointbrian"s false
>post.
>Come on man, do your job
>here by correcting everything, not
>just the self-selective posts to
>which you disagree.
>
>I'm still waiting.
>
>Zeke


I still have no idea what you're talking about unless it was his Alaska Lodge comment. I, and most others, probably have no idea how that hunting lodge/business was paid for since the books are closed. With so many different organizations that the Don started that are intertwined it will take one sharp cookie to ever unravel things if there is ever a forced audit and I'd bet it will take more than a day or two to do it. What I do know is that I agree with him his post that there is no reason for a 301(C)3 nonprofit organization to own or be a part of an Alaska Lodge where the only good might be for that of the organization itself to grease politicians and possibly Government employees. Is that the post of his you are referring to and if it is how do you figure I can or need to correct anything?
 
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-16
>AT 01:56?PM (MST)
>
>At the end of the day,
>this is the issue:
>
>SFW, MDF and the DWR have
>taken 200 premium tags out
>of the public draw to
>"generate revenues for wildlife conservation
>activities." On average, the
>groups generate about $1 million
>a year in $5 application
>fees. For the first
>6 years, they accounted for
>zero dollars. That's right,
>not one red cent.
>After sportsmen (including mnay on
>this website) threw a fit,
>the groups started accounting for
>30% of the application fees
>starting in 2013. As
>a result, the numbers are
>as follows:
>
>2007-2012 - 0% transparency - 0
>out of $5,436,655 accounted for.
>
>2013-2015 - 30% transparency - $1,147,678.84
>out of $3,161,740 accounted for.
>
>2007-2015 - $1,147,678.84 out of $8,598,395
>accounted for.
>
>Show me what is false or
>misleading in this post or
>any other post from me
>on this issue. Thanks.
>
>
>-Hawkeye-

That is factual as it gets and those numbers don't lie. So for the next post tristate focus on these numbers don't bring up some other hidden agenda garbage.

defend your so loved organization based off those numbers
The proof is in the putting
 
>You aren't getting the point.
>No matter what percentages you
>compare IT IS ANYTHING BUT
>CUT AND DRY.

True! It seems like everyone will only see info which benefits their "side" regardless.

Some refuse to acknowledge that 30% of 100 is > 100% of 25 but then it might be too abstract for some to get your point.

Zeke
 
Zeke-

I was not offended by anything you posted. I have no problem with somebody calling me out if I misstate something. So far, however, that has not happened on these threads. Why? Because I do my homework and stick to the issues that I know and understand. And I recognize that there is no value in name-calling or personal attacks. However, I am not the forum referee/moderator and it is not my job to correct every half truth or opinion stated by others. That is the point that I was making to Birdman and it is the same thing that I stated to the SFW board member that Birdy was referring to.

Let's look at a real life example. I assume that you are referring to desertpointbrian's Post #87 wherein he mentioned that SFW "bought a guide service/ personal hunting lodge on Alaska." Once again, I did not post this and frankly I don't know anything about that issue. If you or Birdman or DeLoss take issue with this statement then feel free to post a response. That is the beauty of this forum, we can all post our views and opinions.

As I explained in Post #141, there are no half-truths, confusion or personal opinions relating to the core issue from all of these threads. SFW and MDF have not accounted for the majority of the monies generated from our public tags. That sir is a fact.

-Hawkeye-

P.S. - I still need to follow up with you on the cabins up AF Canyon. My wife would love to buy one but I am afraid that they are out of our price range.
 
>>You aren't getting the point.
>>No matter what percentages you
>>compare IT IS ANYTHING BUT
>>CUT AND DRY.
>
>True! It seems like everyone will
>only see info which benefits
>their "side" regardless.
>
>Some refuse to acknowledge that 30% of 100 is > 100% of 25 but then it might be too abstract for some to get your point.
>
>Zeke

It is very easy to see that is a lot of unaccounted for money simple as that
 
Top, the problem is when things are corrected, you and others come back with bs. You don't believe because you don't want to. You and others don't really try to know the truth. Example, saw in Arizona. It has nothing to do with or connected in any way with Don OR saw in utah. Hawkeye knows this. He could have stopped all the hastle. The hunting lodges in bc, not one cent came from the expo, or banquets etc. When millions are given so that saw will have money coming in to continue with their mission. All donated for that reason. If not used that way, no money will be given. See there are people out there who see what saw is accomplishing and wants it continued. People buying these big money tags know the money goes back to that species so they do it. One more thing, rmef made the statement they give 100% of conservation money back. I am guessing that means after costs as they still hold 10% for themselves.
 
>Robiland,
>Here's the problem as I see
>it:
>Neither "side" wants to take responsibility
>here on MM for bull
>sh!t posts. Neither side will
>correct the misconceptions and misinformation
>that's flying around. They either
>don't know the truth or
>they'd rather let the BS
>fly as opposed to correcting
>anything.
>This issue is too divisive to
>make a bit of progress
>on MM
>Case in point: I tried to
>give your brother-in-law a compliment
>and tophat jumped down my
>throat. Plick!
>So, where do we go from
>here?
>
>Do both sides of this issue
>continue to allow the lies
>and half-truths pass as the
>truth.
>
>Zeke

Your "attempt" to give Hawkeye a compliment was a piss poor job IMHO when you threw in that RMEF comment when it has nothing to do with lack of transparency with where the $5 application fee money is going, so call me Plick or whatever vulgar term you care to use! You want the truth and that's all I stated and it was not a "jump down your throat", but rather FACT! The FACTS are that the grass root members of SFW are some damn good guys busting their ass to do good work and none of us have ever said anything different. We will, however, keep right on with our challenge for SFW to simply show yearly where all the money is going from those 200 public tags just like they have to with the auction tags. That's all that Hawkeye started this thread about and true to form a bunch of SFW people get on here and try to say we're trying to abolish and take down SFW and skirt the issue. If what we're asking for is too much for SFW to do, then it's pretty obvious the money is not going to where it was intended when the entire Expo idea was created and came to fruition ten years ago. It didn't take long after it got going for this BS to start and within a year or two of it's inception the masking of money started and continues to this day. It's not right when it's tags that are the public trust we're talking about and we continue to have to fight for what is right. You wanted me to correct something that someone stated about the Alaska operation and I made my comment whether you like it or not. Why don't you now correct the ridiculous statement Birdman made about there being a separate account of the money SFW/MDF makes from the $5 tag fees and that it's audited by DWR. You know as well as Hawkeye and I do that it's false, so back at you brother!
 
Record-Setting Western Hunting & Conservation Expo Closes

Salt Lake City, Utah: The doors closed on the 2016 Western Hunting and Conservation Expo (WHCE) Sunday after four days that smashed previous records for attendance and funds raised for conservation. The 10th anniversary show, sponsored by the Mule Deer Foundation and Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife, raised more than $6 million for conservation through auctions and tag drawings. To top off the fundraising efforts, the banquet audience raptly listened to the words of Taya Kyle and Donald Trump, Jr. who both spoke eloquently on the importance of hunting to conservation and the value of the healing power of nature. Throughout the weekend over 40,000 people walked the 330,000 square feet of exhibit space to support vendors and exhibitors, many of which have already committed to return to exhibit at the 2017 Expo.

"We knew this was going to be a special year for the Western Hunting and Conservation Expo, but this show exceeded our expectations," said Mule Deer Foundation President/CEO, Miles Moretti. "The WHCE is one of the fastest growing shows for western hunters and we are thrilled to offer a home for these passionate outdoorsmen and women. This is where we have our single greatest opportunity to connect with sportsmen and to raise funds for our conservation efforts throughout the year and our 10th anniversary show was simply incredible."

The highlight of every WHCE are the evening auctions which is where the real magic is made for conservation. In the Friday night auction, the mule deer tag on Antelope Island sold for a record-breaking $410,000. The next night the Arizona statewide mule deer tag was auctioned for another unprecedented amount, securing a final bid of $400,000. The funds raised for these tags and the dozens of other auction tags support the conservation efforts of MDF and SFW and support mule deer conservation at the state level. At the end of the auctions and combined with funds from tag drawings for more than 200 special Utah hunting tags, the 2016 WHCE raised more than $6 million for conservation.

"I'm not sure that any of us could have predicted how big the WHCE would be when we first started 10 years ago," commented Jon Larson, president of Sportsmen for Fish & Wildlife. "But we are very proud of the show's success and the support that so many are giving our organizations for the work that we do."

WHCE vendors and sponsors increased for the 10th anniversary show growing the floor space by more than 20 percent this year. The Expo hall featured 350 companies selling top quality hunts, hunting and outdoor gear, and much more. Those booths, and the different activities for kids, make this show a family-friendly event which was evident by the children walking around sporting M.U.L.E.Y. antler crowns. Their time in the Youth Wildlife Conservation Experience gave many their first opportunity to try shooting sports in a safe manner and to learn about conservation and ethical hunting. Throughout the course of the four day show, tens of thousands of people traversed the show floor.

"Our company started coming to the WHCE several years ago and I was proud to support conservation through the purchase of some tags during evening auctions. But over those years I saw the dramatic growth in the show and the number of hunters that walked through the doors each day and I could see the value in connecting with this market," commented Darren Newsom, president of ACI and Ammo & More, the title sponsor of the WHCE since 2015.

Similar enthusiasm is felt by all the vendors and most have already secured their booth for the 2017 Western Hunting and Conservation Expo which will run February 16th to 19th next year. Continue to follow www.huntexpo.com for more information.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-16 AT 03:05PM (MST)[p]>Top, the problem is when
>things are corrected, you and
>others come back with bs.
> You don't believe because
>you don't want to.
>You and others don't really
>try to know the truth.
>Example, saw in Arizona.
>It has nothing to do
>with or connected in any
>way with Don OR saw
>in utah. Hawkeye knows
>this. He could have
>stopped all the hastle.
>The hunting lodges in bc,
>not one cent came from
>the expo, or banquets etc.
> When millions are given
>so that saw will have
>money coming in to continue
>with their mission. All donated
>for that reason. If
>not used that way, no
>money will be given.
>See there are people out
>there who see what saw
>is accomplishing and wants it
>continued. People buying these
>big money tags know the
>money goes back to that
>species so they do it.
> One more thing, rmef
> made the statement they
>give 100% of conservation money
>back. I am guessing
>that means after costs as
>they still hold 10% for
>themselves.

Same old BS Birdman! What have you corrected other than saying YOU know something isn't true that is said, but with nothing to back yourself up other than you know it. That isn't correcting anything! Now you keep posting a bunch of BS to Hawkeye and the only reason is to keep things off track. You talk about things being said that are incorrect and yet you made a big one earlier today so fess up and admit it. The SFW/MDF is taking 70% of the $5 tag application fee and there is no separate account with that money in it that the DWR audits. It's right in the contract that the money is their's and it's not looked at by the DWR. The remaining 30% ($1.50 per ticket) is what is being audited. Correct or not? We are not talking about anything here but what Hawkeye posted regarding the $5 application fee for the 200 raffle tags. You and the rest of the koolaid drinkers along with the pig come on a thread and try to move everything away from what is being talked about. Let's just stick with just that one thing here that needs to be straightened out like has been asked by Hawkeye and several others!
 
Answer my question topgun! .... or at least admit you have no idea. That admission would be refreshing for a few of us.

Zeke
 
So let's now see how much of that 6 million dollars that was raised from the just completed Expo mentioned in the above propaganda piece actually goes back on the ground for habitat and wildlife!
 
>Answer my question topgun! .... or
>at least admit you have
>no idea. That admission would
>be refreshing for a few
>of us.
>
>Zeke

Ask a GD specific question so I know what you are talking about, as I'm not a freaking clairvoyant, and as soon as I get back with the dog and our daily run I'll be more than happy to get back to you!
 
See top, there you go. All I said was saw Arizona is in no way affiliated with saw in Utah. No way at all. I say that and you say prove it. Don't know how to prove it but Hawkeye knows it is two different organizations that are not tied in any way. All he needed to do was say so. Nope it did not benefit him with the truth coming out. It worked to get things wound up.
As far as a account set up with the $5 money, yes there is and it can only be used with the direction of the dwr. Can't prove it but that was put in a while back. I know that for a fact as do others.
 
They whined about accountability and transparency. They got it years ago and just like I said then it wouldn't be good enough. They whine about the selection process. Well its over and they can't change it and they are still bitching. They scream its their tags given to SFW but SFW doesn't get them. They are distributed in an organized above board method. They whine about a check written to a politician which if there was something dirty there I guarantee the FBI would have been all over that. They whine about a hunting lodge in Alaska and all the stuff they don't know. Well what if you did know. What if you did know somebody made $X at SFW. I'll tell you what if. You'll whine about that too. You'll say that's too much money. But just as vague as trying to rip them down over percentages that argument will be even less clear. You want to demonize people that make money with these tags period. You are trying to make this a class warfare because you think its the only way to get those tags back in the draw so you can fight more over who gets to kill the last deer.

People don't follow whiners. They follow people who are prone to action and yall are a bunch of whiners. Now I have posted so start calling names and whiners.
 
See on mm, there is no discussion as to what or why. It's saw people are all liars and don't know diddly squat. There is no discussion. If there was a discussion more would be involved. In reality I really saw keeps getting bigger and bigger. More and more kool-aid gets drank and more and more dollars keep coming in. If there was anything illegal it would have been out by now. Had a lot of people asking about the money and $5 at the expo. After most joined up.
It was great to have the heads of Wyoming and Arizona Fish and Game there was well as the surrounding state departments with booths. Lots of eagerness of How Utah does what they do. Great to have Arizona sent their big deer tag to the expo to have it auctioned off. Same with wyoming, Colorado, nevada. They know the draw the expo gets.
As for the odds of drawing a tag in Utah, between 360 and 400 thousand people now put in for limited entry tags in utah. Must be hunting in Utah has great wildlife.
 
Okay Birdman, let's try this again. So according to you, all of the $5 application fee revenue is put in a "separate account" and can only be spent "with the direction of the DWR." And this would include the 70% of the application fee revenue that the group's continue to pocket as administrative expenses? So that means the DWR is "directing" SFW and MDF as to how to spend not only the 30% earmarked for approved projects but also the 70% they keep for salaries, bonuses, consulting fees, campaign donations, wine, women and song? And you can't prove this but you know this to be a fact? Okay?

Well if that is the case then why can't the DWR provide an annual audit on the full 100% of application fees? If what you are saying is true, then full audit should be no problem. Perhaps you just solved this whole problem. Check with your buddies and get back to us. Thanks.

-Hawkeye-
 
Wait a minute Hawkeye,

Now you are lying. Earlier you have said there is only %30 "accountability" but now you clearly state that the other %70 is an "administrative expense". That looks like %100 is accounted for to me. What seems to be the problem? Looks like there is %100 accounted for you just want to cry about where %70 goes.
 
So I am a member of SFW, MDF and RMEF. I have chosen to support all three organizations because I think that all are contributing in some way to make hunting better in Utah.

I believe we as sportsmen need a political voice. I believe we need to treat as much habitat as possible.
The combination of these groups effort makes this possible.
I am very knowledgeable within the conservation realm and have spent thousands of hours of volunteer time with all these groups. I also am a hunting guide and have a very good knowledge of conservation permit sale prices.

I want to respond to a couple things. First Tristate in his claims in post 118 makes an assumption for some reason that SFW and MDF sells permits for more money than does the RMEF. This is a false assumption. Over the past three years we have been buying Fishlake tags at SFW, MDF and RMEF banquets. The RMEF tags have actually sold for the highest amount. Last year I was at the Cedar City RMEF banquet where the Panguitch Lake premium tag was sold for $31,000. It sold just recently at the Expo (where you would think tags would go for the highest dollar) for $20,000. These are a just a couple situations that prove this assumption is false. My facts can be proven by looking on the DWR website and seeing for yourself what the selling price has been for these tags.

If Tristate was actually referring to the amount of money that SFW and MDF get from their allocated tags that is much different than saying SFW sells their tags for more money. The reason SFW and MDF bring in more money from conservation tags than the other groups (as they have shown from their Expo page propaganda) is they get more tags than the other groups. This doesn't mean they sell the tags for more.

Stick to facts guys. Assumptions get you nowhere.

Also, I do wish that SFW would just step up to the plate and show an accounting for the 70% of the Expo tag money they are allowed to keep. The State regulation that initially provided the 200 Expo tags clearly states that is was to be used for wildlife conservation. It would be easy for SFW to step up and account for this. I believe the DWR has failed all sportsmen for not requiring an audit of all 100% of the Expo permit funds from the beginning so I put most of the blame on the DWR for failure to properly oversee the program.

For everyone on both sides of the issue and those like me that actually have a good understanding of both sides, here is my advise. Get involved, don't just jump on MM and complain. I commend guys like Deloss. He has done a hell of a lot for Utah's wildlife. Much more than I am sure most of you on here can claim to have done. I may not agree with everything he and others have posted but I respect his commitment to Utah's wildlife and for stepping up to make it better. Like he said, "The Gate Is Open". If you don't like what is going on jump through the gate, step up and make a difference. Support a cause, join a committee, voice your opinion at the RAC, put in an application to be on the RAC, start your own organization. Whatever it is you believe in, Stand Up For It! Fight the good fight!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-16 AT 05:17PM (MST)[p]>See top, there you go.
>All I said was saw
>Arizona is in no way
>affiliated with saw in Utah.
> No way at all.
> I say that and
>you say prove it.
>Don't know how to prove
>it but Hawkeye knows it
>is two different organizations that
>are not tied in any
>way. All he needed
>to do was say so.
> Nope it did not
>benefit him with the truth
>coming out. It worked to
>get things wound up.
> As far as
>a account set up with
>the $5 money, yes there
>is and it can only
>be used with the direction
>of the dwr. Can't
>prove it but that was
>put in a while back.
> I know that for
>a fact as do others.
>

What do you mean "there I go again" for Pete's sake? It should be "there you go again"! I haven't said one word about AZ in this thread. You're the only one mentioning it and now you say believe you, but you can't prove it and then try to get Hawkeye involved again! I don't give a rip about AZ because we're not discussing it on this thread---comprehende? As I and others keep saying, keep this on the one subject of the $5 tag fee for the 200 raffle tags. That's what this thread is about. You have made statements that we know are incorrect because as was stated above the tag money in the contract calls for it to be used for conservation purposes. You say it's all in a separate account audited by the DWR and that's only for $1.50 per ticket and they were literally forced to do that a year or two ago. How about the other $3.50 per tag that isn't audited and appears to be used by the organizations for anything they feel like since there is no line item showing it or where it's spent? Please speak to that if you care to come back on this thread because you're getting nowhere with the baloney you've posted so far.
 
>Sorry tristate but this is an
>adult conversation.
>
>-Hawkeye-

Good reply Hawkeye, as every post the pig puts up gets dumber and dumber. Any college educated person, whether it's from Aggie land where he went, or anywhere else, that can't even post a percentage properly like this troll can't shouldn't even have his posts read!
 
So I catch Hawkeye in a lie which is what y'all said to do and now y'all ignore it by saying this so an adult conversation. So if I am full of crap I can join in. Flopgun you asked on your previous post what happened to the $3.50. Well if you would pull your head out of hawkeye's backside you would see he answered that question and he knows what it is used for. Damn shame Hawkeye when the kids read better than you adults. I knew if you ran your mouth long enough you would hang yourself.
 
>So I catch Hawkeye in a
>lie which is what y'all
>said to do and now
>y'all ignore it by saying
>this so an adult conversation.
> So if I am
>full of crap I can
>join in. Flopgun you
>asked on your previous post
>what happened to the $3.50.
> Well if you would
> pull your head
>out of hawkeye's backside you
>would see he answered that
>question and he knows what
>it is used for.
>Damn shame Hawkeye when the
>kids read better than you
>adults. I knew if you
>ran your mouth long enough
>you would hang yourself.

You didn't catch anybody at anything troll! If you knew anything about this subject, you would know that when the Expo was created 10 years ago that the $5 application fees were to go back on the ground for conservation purposes, not for the organizations to do with whatever they wanted. Within a year or two, just as Hawkeye mentioned, that went down the drain and nothing was being audited or accounted for. A year or two ago the organizations were challenged to start taking care of the money properly and they wanted nothing to do with that, but were almost forced into at least giving back $1.50 per raffle ticket into an audited account. Just think if that other 70% went into conservation instead of to the organization where they can spend it for whatever they want. That's why I, and everyone else, is asking where the other $3.50 per ticket is going because it's not being accounted for. If what we're saying can't be comprehended by your Aggie brain, then do like Hawkeye said and stay out of these adult conversations.
 
>Flopgun,
>
>Go read post 159. Hawkeye
>specifically says what it was
>used for. His words
>not mine.


Judas friggin Priest! I've read his post, read it again just for you, and know exactly what he's stating. If you can't properly figure it out due to your lack of reading comprehension, then do like Hawkeye stated and stay the heck out of adult conversations! Damn, you are either dense or just like to pizz people off and I think probably both!
 
So you are lying then. Y'all have been saying y'all don't know how the money was spent but Hawkeye screws up and tells everyone you really do know how it was spent. So the real problem isn't that you don't know it's you just don't like how it got spent. You don't think labor and materials should be paid for in this business deal. Somehow in your magical world where you have never had to operate a private enterprise you think people that get paid money to do work and equipment bought to do the work is evil and dishonest???? Are you an American? Did you grow up parentless? I guess getting years of welfare tags has warped your sense of what it takes to get a job done.
 
No top, I brought Arizona up because the question was ask about providing the truth. You were one of the main people objecting to what was said. Hawkeye was brought in because he knew the two organizations have nothing to do with each other and he could have cleared it up as a conversation on the issue. He chose not to let the truth come out. That's fine. One thing I have learned is that there can be no conversation on mm. Besides I can't talk to you and some others because I am not the jackass whisperer. Good luck guys in your trying to make something happen. Everything is above board and the majority know. You handfuls of haters keep trying but until something illegal is done, and so far it hasn't, I don't think it ever will. Get yourself a group going. Uwc is about washed up so start a group and make a difference. Your bitching ain't working. Goodbye
 
>So you are lying then. Y'all
>have been saying y'all don't
>know how the money was
>spent but Hawkeye screws up
>and tells everyone you really
>do know how it was
>spent. So the real
>problem isn't that you don't
>know it's you just don't
>like how it got spent.
> You don't think labor
>and materials should be paid
>for in this business deal.
> Somehow in your magical
>world where you have never
>had to operate a private
>enterprise you think people that
>get paid money to do
>work and equipment bought to
>do the work is evil
>and dishonest???? Are you
>an American? Did you
>grow up parentless? I
>guess getting years of welfare
>tags has warped your sense
>of what it takes to
>get a job done.

How can a college graduate like you say you are from Aggie land be so ignorant and come up with all this crap? We are saying that the 70% is going to the organization and we don't know what it's being used for because it's not being audited. From the getgo 10 years ago 100% is supposed to be going back on the ground under DWR approval and DWR audit just like the auction tags where 90% is given back to the DWR under audited and approved conditions, not just the 30% that people finally got them to agree to a couple years ago. That's it from here because if after all these posts by the guys discussing this you either are just plain dumb, want to be argumentative, or both!
 
Your still blabbing about questions you know the answer to you just don't like the answers. That's whining. You are whining and lying by trying to portray yourself as ignorant to the answers. Your big bubba gave the answer live with it.
 
>No top, I brought Arizona up
>because the question was ask
>about providing the truth.
>You were one of the
>main people objecting to what
>was said. Hawkeye
>was brought in because he
>knew the two organizations have
>nothing to do with each
>other and he could have
>cleared it up as a
>conversation on the issue.
>He chose not to let
>the truth come out.
>That's fine. One thing
>I have learned is that
>there can be no conversation
>on mm. Besides I
>can't talk to you and
>some others because I am
>not the jackass whisperer.
>Good luck guys in your
>trying to make something happen.
> Everything is above board
>and the majority know.
>You handfuls of haters keep
>trying but until something illegal
>is done, and so far
>it hasn't, I don't
>think it ever will.
>Get yourself a group going.
> Uwc is about washed
>up so start a group
>and make a difference. Your
>bitching ain't working. Goodbye
>
What don't you understand about staying on topic? You keep talking about everything, including about AZ several times, that has nothing to do with this thread and was last discussed a couple years ago. Now you're saying again that you know the AZ group wasn't affiliated with Utah, but can't prove it, and are today claiming Hawkeye can and won't because it's all a conspiracy against SFW, LOL! If everything was above board and transparent regarding the $5 fee, there would be nothing ongoing about said fee to this day. You have been asked point blank now several times today to explain how you can say the entire $5 fee is being audited when you know or should know that it isn't true.
 
Your we know the truth but won' tell or show anyone bit is tired and lame. Your homie gangster rap hater talk is also lame

funny you sfw guys think it is only a couple of guys on the Web that laugh every time they here sfw. You guys are the laughing stock in the western states as far as conservation.



I hope you and Peayday do a prison stint together because we all know you will be on the bottom bunk doing everything he tells you to do
 
>Your still blabbing about questions you
>know the answer to you
>just don't like the answers.
> That's whining. You
>are whining and lying by
>trying to portray yourself as
>ignorant to the answers.
>Your big bubba gave the
>answer live with it.

You have just proved the last sentence in my previous post!
 
Against better judgement I'm gonna bite the trolls marketing question.

Troll state doesn't believe that the RMEF could pull $400K out of the AI tag.
He's wrong as usual. So let me ask it this way with an actual occurrence that went down year one of this sham.

First year of this pyramid scheme the entertainment was Montgomery Gentry, hot on the
heels of Troy Gentry shooting a caged tame bear with archery gear. He got caught trying to pass the kill off as fair chase. What do you think his fee was to get up and sing a few really crappy new country songs? $100k?? $200K?? We'll never know because there is no requirement to tell anyone. A handful of people know the truth.

So lets figure that it was $100K. If that hundred grand was used for something other than to pay a $hitty singer and poaching scumbag it could have been matched federally and at a minimum tripled. So that $100K should have been $300K to benefit wildlife. This is ONE instance of this happening, just one Troll state.

So go ahead a play your marketing games focusing on 10 or 20 grand. Talk about buying a couple hundred pheasants, justify moving a few deer south to become cougar vittles and hood ornaments. Ignore the fact that the 10 million dollars raised from these app fees, if not pissed away on no talent singers, comedians and other so called performers should have actually been used and leveraged to the tune of 30 to 40 million to benefit wildlife.

Open offer to anyone, show me that these funds were used in this way. Hell show me that half the funds were used this way and I'll hand deliver the check to SFW Headquarters tomorrow.

Carry on Troll State.






"WE USED TO HUNT GAME TO
MANAGE, NOW WE MANAGE GAME TO
HUNT"
Finn 2/14/16
 
Well that's a whole new level of crazy.

By the way go back and read. I never said RMEF couldn't pull 400k for the AI tag.

So after all that I guess you don't think someone who has a wildlife conviction should be allowed to work for a living??????
 
Sure is a lot of things, accusations against SFW. Sure wish you could back up your statements with proof. Lots of here say on here but no proof. Let's hear the proof so we can be convinced. What a great opportunity you have. Prove your statements. Not in time, now. If you cant, then all your saying is here say.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-16 AT 08:54PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-16 AT 08:40?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-16 AT 08:38?PM (MST)

brian,
Now that does make me laugh! It would interesting to be a fly on the wall when the other western states agencies have invited Mr Peay in to discuss ways to raise money for their states wildlife.

Now you tell me is that fact or fiction?????

Maybe ask Hawkeye? Jason seems to know a lot. Huh Jason is that fact or fiction?

I wonder if they discuss the likely hood of prison???

Funny stuff.
 
"If you have an AI tag and RMEF can sell it and give the DWR %100 of the proceeds or SFW can sell it and get you %90 of the proceeds which one do you want? This is where short sighted people jump up and scream RMEF. However if people that know how to do math ask "Well how much is RMEF going to get for it"? Well if RMEF thinks the yare going to get 300k well that's pretty good. But if SFW gets 400k guess what you would lose 60K. Wow how does that work boys and girls? Do you mean that someone can give a smaller percentage but more money?????? Exactly boys and girls."


Most people, passion for wildlife or not, have a product or service to offer. Exactly what good or service does SFW offer for me?? Unlike most of the SFW opponents on this page I readily admit that the world would be a much better place without SFW in it. My motives are crystal clear. These groups exist on the handouts and proceeds derived from the sale of a public resource and the philosophy of maximum commercialization of this public resource. They are commodity speculators on wildlife. In order to add value to their commodity they must increase rarity by restricting opportunity. This stench has snuck in to EVERY aspect of big game management in Utah.

No thanks










"WE USED TO HUNT GAME TO
MANAGE, NOW WE MANAGE TO
HUNT"
Finn 2/14/16
 
Are you arguing the fact that Troy Gentry was paid to perform at the first expo??




"WE USED TO HUNT GAME TO
MANAGE, NOW WE MANAGE TO
HUNT"
Finn 2/14/16
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-16 AT 09:05PM (MST)[p]In the end there will be Doers and INTERWEB CRUSADERS. Like Robi stated the interweb is his last resort. The reality past and present doesn't matter when someone developes a personal vendetta. Honesty I believe its a waste of time because it does nothing to better our wildlife. I'm done with the Interweb fighting, I believe continuing to do so gives the impression to folks like Robi and Jason that there is some value in doing so. After another successful weekend at the Expo I believe there are plenty of people based in reality and willing to push for what I believe is right. Have fun gents, I'm out!
 
73, agree or disagree you and pops are good folk.

Best to you and yours.





"WE USED TO HUNT GAME TO
MANAGE, NOW WE MANAGE TO
HUNT"
Finn 2/14/16
 
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-16
>AT 09:05?PM (MST)
>
>In the end there will be
>Doers and INTERWEB CRUSADERS.
>Like Robi stated the interweb
>is his last resort.
>The reality past and present
>doesn't matter when someone developes
>a personal vendetta. Honesty
>I believe its a waste
>of time because it does
>nothing to better our wildlife.
> I'm done with the
>Interweb fighting, I believe
>continuing to do so gives
>the impression to folks like
>Robi and Jason that there
>is some value in doing
>so. After another successful
>weekend at the Expo I
>believe there are plenty of
>people based in reality and
>willing to push for what
>I believe is right.
>Have fun gents, I'm out!
>

No personal vendetta here. Rather, I am somebody that does believe in doing (BEING A DOER) what he can to voice his opinion when he sees wrongful acts being committed at the expense of the tax payer. Wrong is wrong and one needs to call it out when they see it.

As far as you and SFW considering yourselves to be doers; the real question is who couldn't do what you do when being gifted the substantial public assetts that you receive. I bet SFW might just disappear if the welfare handouts (tags from state agencies) were taken away.

Excavator
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-16 AT 10:58PM (MST)[p]M73, so are we playing fact or fiction now? I don't think it is a secret that several surrounding states have considered the "Utah model" over the last few years. Idaho, Arizona, and Wyoming to name a few. Luckily for those states, sportsmen have been able to stop those efforts . . . so far. I am not surprised that state agencies would be looking for ways to raise more money from public tags. Unfortunately, these commercialized, big money tags are a slippery slope and lead to a host of related problems. Hence, the "cancer" reference that many sportsmen use to describe the "Utah model."

On a related note, does Don get paid "consulting fees" by all of these other states who want him to teach them how to raise money for wildlife or are we the only ones who pay his consulting fees? Can we spread his fees around to some of the neighboring states?

-Hawkeye-
 
Now you are worried about consulting fees?????? Isn't that basically how you make money??????? People pay for your intellectual properties and consultation to represent them legally??????? Am I wrong? Are you not a legal consultant? What is wrong with being fiscally compensated for sharing knowledge? Its OK for you but not someone who has a conservation business???? Not only are you dishonest but now you are a hypocrite.
 
"In order to add value to their commodity they must increase rarity by restricting opportunity."


This is probably the most logical argument the anti SFW people have made on this thread Wiley. Congratulations. So how do you combat that? Not by whining. You beat them because YOU STILL CONTROL OVER 99% OF THE "OPPORTUNITY". Make more deer where your conservation ideas are still favored, which is the vast majority of your state, and then you don't have to worry about their management goals. You are wasting time whining so get it done.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-16
>AT 09:05?PM (MST)
>
>In the end there will be
>Doers and INTERWEB CRUSADERS.
>Like Robi stated the interweb
>is his last resort.
>The reality past and present
>doesn't matter when someone developes
>a personal vendetta. Honesty
>I believe its a waste
>of time because it does
>nothing to better our wildlife.
> I'm done with the
>Interweb fighting, I believe
>continuing to do so gives
>the impression to folks like
>Robi and Jason that there
>is some value in doing
>so. After another successful
>weekend at the Expo I
>believe there are plenty of
>people based in reality and
>willing to push for what
>I believe is right.
>Have fun gents, I'm out!
>


"">Like Robi stated the interweb
>is his last resort.""

Throwing some false claims it looks like. Just like an sfw troll. NIce try 73. Keep at it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-17-16 AT 09:53AM (MST)[p]Robi
Refer to your own post #138.

Again I think your confused. You're the pawn to the group that is trying. I'm the pawn to the group that is doing. So the nice "try" would be my line, not yours.
 
73, once again I have no idea what you are saying. Never once did I say the internet is my last resort. READING COMPREHENSION bud. I said I have done a few things. I have called a few people. I have had request to do interviews. Never did I say the internet is the last resort.

You are right about 1 thing. I am just a PAWN trying to do what is right for wildlife. And yes, you are a PAWN with sfw doing what? Stealing millions of dollars from wildlife? All we are asking is to give back to wildlife and come clear or "clean" with what sfw has done with millions of dollars in the past. Pretty simple. Keep on that side of "doing" whats wrong with the system.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-17-16 AT 10:45AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-17-16 AT 10:43?AM (MST)

Hey, what about my consulting fees?
I spent a little over 6 hours on the phone with Lumpy (to get a different perceptive), Hawkeye and a board member from SFW. I burnt a half a tank of gas in my truck,(I ended up driving in circles for four hours) and my bar bill was $50 dollars including tip after talking with Hawkeye and SFW! LOL!

I haven't said anything about the conversations I had with both sides (and I will not go into exactly want was said), but I think it's time to bring this up.

With all due respect:
I have to say that after all the time spent, I thought we made some great progress that would satisfy both parties and I was excited to put this issue to bed, but it went astray! And I have say Hawkeye, you kind of put a fly in the ointment.

The SFW board member I spoke with last, literally called me back less then 30 minutes after I got off the phone with him to tell me, he just hung up with you and he was very excited also after your conversation. A few days later I called the SFW member to see how things were going and I could tell in his voice it went to Hell in a hand basket, Hawkeye, you didnt do the one thing I ask you to do, which was "leave the lawyer talk at home", and I think they took I as you threatening them, which in any negotiations just hardens the other sides positions. As I said to both of you "KILL THE OTHER SIDE WITH KINDNESS ITS NOT PERSONAL"!, when people attack each other nothing gets done.

SO, IM STARTING TO BELIEVE THIS IS JUST THAT PERSONAL!

I also know what Hawkeye and SFW's points are, (because I took the time to talk with both sides), and want I commend everyone for their hard work to get the answers they want and to move forward in a positive way

As always thanks for your time
Joe


DISCLAIMER:
The view that was expressed here are just one person's opinion, and does not warrant anyone jumping my Butt over anything I said!

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
 
>>>This is an adult conversation.
>>>Stay in the kiddy pool
>>>tristate.
>>>
>>>-Hawkeye-
>>
>>
>> +1!!!!!
>
>
>+2


+3

And Tripster, you might want to be careful about calling someone a liar. If he has been a liar, share with the rest of us what he has lied about. Stop with the mud slinging BS!!!
 
We don't care what kind of money the SFW high ups get paid when that money is coming from member fees, private donations, etc. We do care what kind of money the SFW high ups get paid when that money comes directly from the public resource. Pocketing 70 percent (or perhaps more) of the $5 application fees is crazy and unacceptable. The majority of that 70% should be spent on conservation efforts. I'm not saying that it needs to 100% of the money to go back, although that would be nice and RMEF was willing to do that, but 30% is a joke. 80-100% would be more appropriate use of a public resource.

I think the majority of the SFW supporters on this thread probably agree but they are unwilling to publically say it because they do not want to add any fuel to that side of the debate because it could threaten SFW in general and the good things they like about SFW.
 

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