Expo Tags Article

We don't care what kind of money the SFW high ups get paid when that money is coming from member fees, private donations, etc. We do care what kind of money the SFW high ups get paid when that money comes directly from the public resource. Pocketing 70 percent (or perhaps more) of the $5 application fees is crazy and unacceptable. The majority of that 70% should be spent on conservation efforts. I'm not saying that it needs to 100% of the money to go back, although that would be nice and RMEF was willing to do that, but 30% is a joke. 80-100% would be more appropriate use of a public resource.

I think the majority of the SFW supporters on this thread probably agree but they are unwilling to publically say it because they do not want to add any fuel to that side of the debate because it could threaten SFW in general and the good things they like about SFW.
 
Joe, as you can see, your flower-power model of kindness was thrown out the window years ago.

Public resource is under attack, the American hunting model is under attack and you want one of the most informed and articulate counter voices to just smile and be nice? Are you kidding?!?

Do you think Don pulled off what he has by being nice?

Do you think contracts are awarded based on kindness?

Do you think crony politics and backroom deals are outed by turning the other cheek?

This conversation needs to be bold, out front and in the face of every Utah citizen, as they're the ones getting the shaft on this whole deal.

The conversation needs to be honest, fort coming and crystal clear about public interests and resources. We certainly haven't gotten any openness from the kindness of SFW heart. We're lucky to have a very influential and in-the-know voice fighting to shed light, and you want him simmer down??!!??

Even Tristate would agree with this.
 
Joe, with all due respect, you are a good guy who lives 1100 miles away from the fine state of Utah and the problems we have been wrestling with for 10 years now. I have to give your credit for taking the initiative to make some phone calls, ask questions and listen to both sides. You are certainly entitled to your opinions but you are not the great mediator on this issue. There have been numerous efforts to fix this problem over the last 10 years and frankly folks here in Utah, including me, are a bit grumpy and frustrated.

I had another conversation last night with an SFW board member and it was a pleasant and professional conversation. They understand what we are asking for as far as transparency and accountability, and I understand their position. I have had many conservations like that over the years. In contrast, I have little patience for the likes of tristate and others who simple want to piss in the wind and confuse the issues.

With regard to whether my comments have derailed your efforts or irritated the other side, I don't really care. This problem is never going to be solved through love and kindness or by saying pretty please or by looking the other way or by waiting patiently. Rather, it will be solved when the groups and/or the DWR decide it is time to do the right thing. My comments have been factual and if that irritates some folks, well, then so be it. This issue is personal in the sense that it has dragged on for a long time and I want to see it fixed. But I have no personal issue with the key players at SFW or the others groups involved.

Keep up the good work and I am still buying dinner next time you make it to Utah.

-Hawkeye-

P.S. - I don't consider tristate a "key player" in anything that matters. He is a troll. Sorry if I am getting personal again.
 
>
> A bunch
>of suck asses following a
>cult.


+1000 That post by Joe will only stir things up more and should have been put in a PM to Hawkeye, not out on this thread. Beside that Joe has no idea to even say what he has about Hawkeye if he wasn't involved in the actual conversation he's referring to, if there even was such a conversation. I hate to say it Joe, but you are too nice and damn sure too naive regarding this whole mess!
 
It would take more than 4 or 6 hours to understand and sift through the issue at hand. Joe could never understand it unless he lived it and even then most that live it can't understand it. Same goes for Top and Trist.

Way too much drama from both sides. Guys like 2, 73, bird are unable to hold an honest conversation about the issue, while the fellas on the other side can't see anything but their frustrations. It isn't ever going away. Both sides are dug in too deep and will not take the time to understand the other's point of view.
 
What's the over/under that 73 is not done with the interweb fighting and is not out?

Oh wait never mind, he's back already.
 
>>
>> A bunch
>>of suck asses following a
>>cult.
>
>
>+1000 That post by Joe
>will only stir things up
>more and should have been
>put in a PM to
>Hawkeye, not out on this
>thread. Beside that Joe
>has no idea to even
>say what he has about
>Hawkeye if he wasn't involved
>in the actual conversation he's
>referring to, if there even
>was such a conversation.
>I hate to say it
>Joe, but you are too
>nice and damn sure too
>naive regarding this whole mess!
>


....and you know so much huh top?

Of course you'd like to see anything, to which you disagree, in PM's only but that seems not to apply to your one-sided views!

The bottom line is that the internet personalities are too big and egos are too puffed up to get anything resolved.

The internet isn't the place to make any real progress and I applaud Joe for doing his own due diligence. Well done Joe.

Zeke
 
>It would take more than 4
>or 6 hours to understand
>and sift through the issue
>at hand. Joe could
>never understand it unless he
>lived it and even then
>most that live it can't
>understand it. Same goes
>for Top and Trist.
>
>Way too much drama from both
>sides. Guys like 2,
>73, bird are unable to
>hold an honest conversation about
>the issue, while the fellas
>on the other side can't
>see anything but their frustrations.
> It isn't ever going
>away. Both sides are
>dug in too deep and
>will not take the time
>to understand the other's point
>of view.


Sure people are dug in real deep, but let's cut through all the crap and just tell it like it is. A couple groups are taking a public resource and using it to the advantage of themselves with lots of the money going to places other than to the wildlife and habitat that it was designed for and to help. For the life of me I don't know why some see this as such a complicated issue when it's really not. Just put the $5 fee that's raised by selling each application into an audited account like it should have been from day one and use it for what it was designed, not for the organizations. This is so simple if the organizations would do the just thing, but don't kid yourself. When we're talking about a million dollars or more a year that they need to keep in order to literally stay in existence to the extent they are now, it will not be done voluntarily on their part as we have all seen with their new contract bid that was accepted. IMHO the DWR top brass should be the ones put out to pasture that have allowed this to happen and will do nothing about it for the good of all the people that pay their salaries.
 
Zeke,

I have a question for you. So what is the solution to SFW and the non audit of money from the tags? Are you HONESTLY okay with not knowing what they have done or not done with the money they have received over the years from public assets? Would you be ok if Don or John Bair or Tony Abbott or Byron bateman took that money and took a small hunting vacation for all the hard work they did over the space of 4 days at the expo? After all, we have no IDEA what was done with that money. They wont show an audit of whats been done or what they are doing.

But the internet is a place to get people aware of what is going on. After all, nobody would know what the bid was, from RMEF. Its a place to spread the word.
 
>>>
>>> A bunch
>>>of suck asses following a
>>>cult.
>>
>>
>>+1000 That post by Joe
>>will only stir things up
>>more and should have been
>>put in a PM to
>>Hawkeye, not out on this
>>thread. Beside that Joe
>>has no idea to even
>>say what he has about
>>Hawkeye if he wasn't involved
>>in the actual conversation he's
>>referring to, if there even
>>was such a conversation.
>>I hate to say it
>>Joe, but you are too
>>nice and damn sure too
>>naive regarding this whole mess!
>>
>
>
>....and you know so much huh
>top?
>
>Of course you'd like to see
>anything, to which you disagree,
>in PM's only but that
>seems not to apply to
>your one-sided views!
>
>The bottom line is that the
>internet personalities are too big
>and egos are too puffed
>up to get anything resolved.
>
>
>The internet isn't the place to
>make any real progress and
>I applaud Joe for doing
>his own due diligence. Well
>done Joe.
>
>Zeke

I know enough to see fraud and cheating just like everyone else that's followed this for any length of time This shouldn't even have to be discussed out on the internet if your higher ups in SFW/MDF were abiding by what was agreed on when the Expo was created and if the DWR and WB wasn't a bunch of SFW cronies it would have never happened to begin with. Hey Zeke, you called me out several times now on this thread asking me to answer a question and I've told you to ask the question(s) point blank so I can respond! Now either poop or get off the pot!
 
This is only my second post, but as I've read through these conversations my thoughts are that 2lumpy & Muley_73 attitudes, demeanor and words are outright astonishing? The apple sure didn't fall fare from the tree in this case.
I would suggest 2lumpy & Muley_73 and other adherent supporters of SWF step back and take a breather from their love affair with SFW. You?ve made it clear that you have personal and deep routed commitments to SFW and we have read about some of the conservations efforts you have been involved with. To be applauded, for sure?
Frankly, your blind devotion to SFW is not allowing you to see clearly what Hawkeye and others in his camp are saying. I have a few questions for 2lumpy or any other SFW supporters willing to answer, (Tristate please reframe from responding I'd prefer not to read your dribble) that I think many of us would be interested in.
? What is more important to you; wildlife preservation or the preservation of SFW?
o Your words, actions and support clearly trend towards the latter of the two, but I believe a detailed response would be very helpful.
? I'm dumfounded why someone would not want clear accounting and transparency concerning a public asset, any public asset? 2lumpy claims SFW has done this to his satisfaction, but clearly this is not the case for many others. 2lumpy claims that he is just an old cowboy and he calls it like he sees it. Fair enough; I'm an old cowboy myself and I'm simple enough to admit I'm neither an accountant nor an attorney. It seems that those who are really challenging this are experts in this area and we need to realize there is merit to their concerns and claims. The question everyone is asking, is why SFW won't relent to these simple requests? Show us what projects that $8.6+- million has gone to and be done with it.
o You should know that I've been on the site for years and had plans on attending the debate of Don P. & Randy N. I was going into the debate as an unbiased observer with the intent of trying to understand all positions. My unbiased opinion is no longer unbiased?
? If a person truly cares about wildlife preservation why would you not want 100% of revenues generated from the sale of Expo tags going back to wildlife?
? If a person cares about wildlife preservation he would defiantly care and be involved in understanding how much a conservation group is paying a so-called consultant or any consultant. This is especially important if most of the revenues generated to pay that consultant come from a public asset. He would want all monies to be accounted for and demand the majority of, if not all of it go towards projects that are shovel ready for wildlife preservation. Is SFW doing this today? Again, show us the records?
? Why demonize everyone that simply questions SFW&MDF and their actions. Citizen of Utah have a right to know. Why not provide details, answers and be forthright about a tremendous asset we are allowing you to manage?
o Don?t you find it interesting that anyone that has access to the web, can go to a web site and we can see most, if not all, of Utah?s public employees? salaries. This is for any state, county, city, school district and University employee. (http://www.utahsright.com/h_salaries.php) That includes 2Lumpys example of Kyle Whittingham. If it's important enough for the citizen of Utah to know the $?s spent for a newly hired State road worker all the way up to the Governor of the state. Then by all means it should be demanded $8.6 million be accounted for to the very last penny.
? The decision of the DWR to grant the extension of the expo tags to SFW&MDF stinks of corruption, favoritism and cronyism Because the deck was stacked in your favor (your words) does it mean SFW&MDF winning was morally right? Winning at all cost justify the means?
o Again, what's more important wildlife conservation or SFW & MDF?s preservation?
Hawkeye, I've contacted my state representative and expressed to him my concerns about the DWR awarding the extension of the EXPO tags to SFW & MDF and sadly, I'm not sure he wanted to listen. It's my impression this has to be pushed in the DWR?s world. I've learned over the years that government bureaucrats react to public pressure and most if not all of them hate any negative light shining on their controlled worlds. Is there more we can do, is there a group already working on a strategy? If momentum is building what else can we do, or how can we get involved? Is there a list or do we know which Utah legislative representatives have ties to SFW?
Cherry
 
>>>
>>> A bunch
>>>of suck asses following a
>>>cult.
>>
>>
>>+1000 That post by Joe
>>will only stir things up
>>more and should have been
>>put in a PM to
>>Hawkeye, not out on this
>>thread. Beside that Joe
>>has no idea to even
>>say what he has about
>>Hawkeye if he wasn't involved
>>in the actual conversation he's
>>referring to, if there even
>>was such a conversation.
>>I hate to say it
>>Joe, but you are too
>>nice and damn sure too
>>naive regarding this whole mess!
>>
>
>
>....and you know so much huh
>top?
>
>Of course you'd like to see
>anything, to which you disagree,
>in PM's only but that
>seems not to apply to
>your one-sided views!
>
>The bottom line is that the
>internet personalities are too big
>and egos are too puffed
>up to get anything resolved.
>
>
>The internet isn't the place to
>make any real progress and
>I applaud Joe for doing
>his own due diligence. Well
>done Joe.
>
>Zeke
Zeke why is it when I apply for tags there is no quota given because Utah won't finish till April, but is willing to hand out tags to the expo?
 
"""""Other then trying to help out the wolf lovers,and a failed mule deer transplant
what has sfw done with all of this money in the past years conservation wise. And taking friends of friends on guided hunting trips doesn't count. I know they bought a guide service/ personal hunting lodge on Alaska but what else"""""

Top,
Here's an example of an inaccurate point and it's fraught with innuendos yet it seem perfectly okay with the anti-SFW crowd.

This is just one small example of the inaccurate posts in this thread and others but I guess accurate information isn't for everyone and of course, you're not the moderator or the OP but you seem quick to condemn other posts which you deem inaccurate.

Oh, and this post isn't about the 200 tags and it seems like when anyone brings up anything other than those tags, you're all over them for getting you "off track". Where's your outrage?

You have a double standard depending on who's doing the posting and their content even when inaccurate.

You didn't follow the thread very well or didn't "investigate" to your usual high standards if you couldn't figure out my question.

So, please correct this post with accurate information. You're all about correcting others.

Zeke
 
>Zeke,
>
>I have a question for you.
> So what is the
>solution to SFW and the
>non audit of money from
>the tags? Are you
>HONESTLY okay with not knowing
>what they have done or
>not done with the money
>they have received over the
>years from public assets?
>Would you be ok if
>Don or John Bair or
>Tony Abbott or Byron bateman
>took that money and took
>a small hunting vacation for
>all the hard work they
>did over the space of
>4 days at the expo?
> After all, we have
>no IDEA what was done
>with that money. They
>wont show an audit of
>whats been done or what
>they are doing.
>
>But the internet is a place
>to get people aware of
>what is going on.
>After all, nobody would know
>what the bid was, from
>RMEF. Its a place
>to spread the word.


Robiland,
That was a bunch of questions. Some were fair and others were not-so-much.
I'll answer this way and hope it helps you understand my position.
I'm an SFW supporter, and a realist, and can see where they could and should do things differently, historically, presently and going forward. I'll put my efforts behind making POSITIVE change, not just change for change' sake.
The largest issue isn't with folks who are working for a solution, it's with the bulk of the guys who pipe-off with some incredibly inaccurate information and the "group" on here find it perfectly acceptable to binge on the venom.
When any SFW member tries to correct the drivel, they're castigates and dealt with as less than human.... and labeled as totally dishonest.
I just don't get it.
Zeke
 
Very Nice #2 Post Cherry, +1

Joey



"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
Excellent post Cherry, I don't get it, why is it so hard for SFW to open the books and have an audit. The only possible explanation is that they have something to hide. If they will have an independant audit and show where all the money has gone and everything is legit then I'll be the first to join up, until that happens I will not support them in any way. I've been to the expo, I've put in for the tags, but not the last 3 years as I will not support an organization that is corrupt. And until there is an audit and everything is explained I will not darken the doors to the expo again. And I will encourage all my friends and family to do the same.
By the way I just joined RMEF.
 
>Excellent post Cherry, I don't get
>it, why is it so
>hard for SFW to open
>the books and have an
>audit. The only possible explanation
>is that they have something
>to hide. If they will
>have an independant audit and
>show where all the money
>has gone and everything is
>legit then I'll be the
>first to join up, until
>that happens I will not
>support them in any way.
>I've been to the expo,
>I've put in for the
>tags, but not the last
>3 years as I will
>not support an organization that
>is corrupt. And until there
>is an audit and everything
>is explained I will not
>darken the doors to the
>expo again. And I will
>encourage all my friends and
>family to do the same.
>
>By the way I just joined
>RMEF.
until the audit, you could call it a money laundering of some sort.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-17-16 AT 02:41PM (MST)[p]>"""""Other then trying to help out
>the wolf lovers,and a failed
>mule deer transplant
>what has sfw done with all
>of this money in the
>past years conservation wise. And
>taking friends of friends on
>guided hunting trips doesn't count.
>I know they bought a
>guide service/ personal hunting lodge
>on Alaska but what else"""""
>
>
>Top,
>Here's an example of an inaccurate
>point and it's fraught with
>innuendos yet it seem perfectly
>okay with the anti-SFW crowd.
>
>
>This is just one small example
>of the inaccurate posts in
>this thread and others but
>I guess accurate information isn't
>for everyone and of course,
>you're not the moderator or
>the OP but you seem
>quick to condemn other posts
>which you deem inaccurate.
>
>Oh, and this post isn't about
>the 200 tags and it
>seems like when anyone brings
>up anything other than those
>tags, you're all over them
>for getting you "off track".
>Where's your outrage?
>
>You have a double standard depending
>on who's doing the posting
>and their content even when
>inaccurate.
>
>You didn't follow the thread very
>well or didn't "investigate" to
>your usual high standards if
>you couldn't figure out my
>question.
>
>So, please correct this post with
>accurate information. You're all about
>correcting others.
>
>Zeke

Maybe what was stated in that post may well be the truth if SFW was above board! Here are my answers and if you're in the know and can tell us the truth please correct what you don't like:
#1---The money they raped the taxpayers for through BGF when they cried "wolf" was another prime example of taking money from the public trough and the public getting nothing in return. Nope, it didn't have anything to do with Expo money, but the state auditor even shook his head in dismay and stated there are so many intertwined organizations where the money was funneled every which way that he couldn't make heads or tails of it!
#2---I haven't enough information one way or the other to comment on his statement about a mule deer transplant.
#3---I also have no idea where the money came from for that Alaska Lodge and hunting outfitting service that was mentioned. If anyone else does, including yourself, and can back it up with fact that it was legitimately raised or came from a big donation like Birdman has stated, please do so along with how it has any benefit to the taxpayers of Utah.
#4---Yep, the statement about taking others to Alaska is a guess, but show what it's really for and we'll dismiss it as an arguing point. hey, why don't you show us a list of "customers" that have been up there since they took it over to dispel any rumors or innuendo!
#5---Funny that about the only ones taking the thread off track are SFW supporters or Trollstate. If people respond when it gets off track what would you like done? Three or four of you have put up nothing as to why SFW/MDF won't do what is required that this thread is addressing all the way back when the Expo was started. What do you expect but innuendos of what may be going on when we don't get any answers as to where the money went. Rather than ##### about that post the guy put up, why not just tell him and us the real truth and answers so there is no reason for conjecture or innuendo. It's not us that's head is on the chopping block for wrongdoing for not being transparent with the public trust.

Edit to Add: I see you now say that SFW people have come on to give answers and all they get is criticism. Please show me where one legitimate answer was given by you, lumpy2, his boy, or Birdman throughout this entire thread. All we keep getting is drivel and pure hogwash trying to derail the thread. If you don't like what is being said about your organization and think they should change for the better, and we're mainly talking about transparency as to where the public trust money is going, then maybe quit fighting us here and go talk to DP and the big boys to get it straightened out. IMHO it's just like 264mag stated in that there are a bunch of suck ups/followers that can see the wrongs and won't do anything to correct them.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-17-16 AT 02:27PM (MST)[p]Cherry-

Thank you for getting involved and contacting your state legislator. Feel free to also push this with the DWR and the Wildlife Board, although I am fairly confident that they are not going to do anything to fix this problem unless they are compelled to do so. At this point, I am hoping for one of two things: (1) either the state or the legislature initiates an audit of the Expo tag program; or (2) the groups step up and voluntarily make changes to address the problem. There is no easy fix but I am convinced it will happen sooner or later. At the end of the day, we are on the right side of this issue. Thanks again for your time, effort and thoughtful post.

-Hawkeye-
 
>Cherry-
>
>Thank you for getting involved and
>contacting your state legislator.
>Feel free to also push
>this with the DWR and
>the Wildlife Board, although I
>am fairly confident that they
>are not going to do
>anything to fix this problem
>unless they are compelled to
>do so. At this
>point, I am hoping for
>one of two things: (1)
>either the state or the
>legislature initiates an audit of
>the Expo tag program; or
>(2) the groups step up
>and voluntarily make changes to
>address the problem. There
>is no easy fix but
>I am convinced it will
>happen sooner or later.
>At the end of the
>day, we are on the
>right side of this issue.
> Thanks again for your
>time, effort and thoughtful post.
>
>
>-Hawkeye-

+1
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-17-16 AT 02:54PM (MST)[p]I'll bet Bair paid top dollar to the outfit for that hunt too! What a coincidence that an ex SFW Pres. and now top WB Chair went on a hunt up there! This gets more rotten as the days go by and Zeke, along with his compadres, wonder why there are innuendos about wrongdoing!!! I guess that's what Muley_73 meant by "working within the established system"!
 
I personally know the gentleman who bought the outfit and none of the money came from SFW.

Will this make any difference to any of you?

Zeke
 
>This is only my second post,
>but as I've read through
>these conversations my thoughts are
>that 2lumpy & Muley_73
>attitudes, demeanor and words are
>outright astonishing? The apple sure
>didn't fall fare from the
>tree in this case.
>I would suggest 2lumpy & Muley_73
>and other adherent supporters of
>SWF step back and
>take a breather from their
>love affair with SFW.
> You?ve made it
>clear that you have personal
>and deep routed commitments to
>SFW and we have read
>about some of the conservations
>efforts you have been involved
>with. To be applauded,
>for sure?
>Frankly, your blind devotion to SFW
>is not allowing you to
>see clearly what Hawkeye and
>others in his camp are
>saying. I have a
>few questions for 2lumpy or
>any other SFW supporters willing
>to answer, (Tristate please reframe
>from responding I'd prefer not
>to read your dribble) that
>I think many of us
>would be interested in.
>? What is more important to
>you; wildlife preservation or the
>preservation of SFW?
>o Your words, actions and support
>clearly trend towards the latter
>of the two, but I
>believe a detailed response would
>be very helpful.
>? I'm dumfounded why someone would
>not want clear accounting and
>transparency concerning a public asset,
>any public asset? 2lumpy claims
>SFW has done this to
>his satisfaction, but clearly this
>is not the case for
>many others. 2lumpy claims
>that he is just an
>old cowboy and he calls
>it like he sees it.
> Fair enough; I'm an
>old cowboy myself and I'm
>simple enough to admit I'm
>neither an accountant nor an
>attorney. It seems that those
>who are really challenging this
>are experts in this area
>and we need to realize
>there is merit to their
>concerns and claims.
>The question everyone is asking,
>is why SFW won't relent
>to these simple requests?
>Show us what projects that
>$8.6+- million has gone to
>and be done with it.
>
>o You should know that I've
>been on the site for
>years and had plans on
>attending the debate of Don
>P. & Randy N.
> I was going into
>the debate as an unbiased
>observer with the intent of
>trying to understand all positions.
>My unbiased opinion is no
>longer unbiased?
>? If a person truly cares
>about wildlife preservation why would
>you not want 100% of
>revenues generated from the sale
>of Expo tags going back
>to wildlife?
>? If a person cares about
>wildlife preservation he would defiantly
>care and be involved in
>understanding how much a conservation
>group is paying a so-called
>consultant or any consultant. This
>is especially important if most
>of the revenues generated to
>pay that consultant come from
>a public asset.
>He would want all monies
>to be accounted for and
>demand the majority of, if
>not all of it go
>towards projects that are shovel
>ready for wildlife preservation. Is
>SFW doing this today?
> Again, show us the
>records?
>? Why demonize everyone that simply
>questions SFW&MDF and their actions.
>Citizen of Utah have a
>right to know. Why not
>provide details, answers and be
>forthright about a tremendous asset
>we are allowing you to
>manage?
>o Don?t you find it interesting
>that anyone that has access
>to the web, can go
>to a web site and
>we can see most, if
>not all, of Utah?s public
>employees? salaries. This is for
>any state, county, city, school
>district and University employee.
>(http://www.utahsright.com/h_salaries.php) That includes
>2Lumpys example of Kyle Whittingham.
> If it's important enough
>for the citizen of Utah
>to know the $?s spent
>for a newly hired State
>road worker all the way
>up to the Governor of
>the state. Then by all
>means it should be demanded
>$8.6 million be accounted for
>to the very last penny.
>
>? The decision of the DWR
>to grant the extension of
>the expo tags to SFW&MDF
>stinks of corruption, favoritism and
>cronyism Because the
>deck was stacked in your
>favor (your words) does it
>mean SFW&MDF winning was morally
>right? Winning at all
>cost justify the means?
>o Again, what's more important wildlife
>conservation or SFW & MDF?s
>preservation?
>Hawkeye, I've contacted my state representative
>and expressed to him my
>concerns about the DWR awarding
>the extension of the EXPO
>tags to SFW & MDF
>and sadly, I'm not sure
>he wanted to listen.
>It's my impression this has
>to be pushed in the
>DWR?s world. I've learned
>over the years that government
>bureaucrats react to public pressure
>and most if not all
>of them hate any negative
>light shining on their controlled
>worlds. Is there more
>we can do, is there
>a group already working on
>a strategy? If momentum is
>building what else can we
>do, or how can we
>get involved? Is there
>a list or do we
>know which Utah legislative representatives
>have ties to SFW?
>Cherry

Very well said cherry
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-17-16 AT 03:19PM (MST)[p]>I personally know the gentleman who
>bought the outfit and none
>of the money came from
>SFW.
>
>Will this make any difference to
>any of you?
>
>Zeke


It certainly would if things were on the up and up and that's why these types of things are being brought up when things are not open and above board! The other question though is why the need for a 501(C)3 organization to have a company like that just from the innuendos that come up and especially seeing the head of the WB in that picture. How many more top officials, politicians, and government officials may have also gone up there? Do you not see where we're coming from when this type of stuff is not out in the public eye for open scrutiny?
 
I don't know the details about the Artic Red River Outfitters other than what I have been told, which is that wealthy SFW donor purchased it and donated it to SFW in an effort to help generate a revenue stream to offset expenses so that more of the money raised by SFW from tags, banquets, mebership fees, etc. could go to actual conservation. Somebody from SFW could certainly explain this better than me since I have no first hand knowledge. But I thought I would throw that out there since I have been accused of "letting the dogs run wild."

http://www.arcticred-nwt.com/index-1.html

I prefer to stick to topics that I know and understand.

-Hawkeye-
 
OMG!
Now Hawkeye, you know I was not throwing you under the bus! I have a great deal of respect for you.
As I have said hundreds of times before, I agree with a lot of the things you are saying and asking for, I did tell you that with your education of being a lawyer, that a lot of the things you are saying are getting lost in the conversation, and when that happens you make people feel threaten. You already heard me tell you this in our conversations, and my advice was try to refrain from doing that and when I spoke with SFW they made the comment of feeling that way. So there!

And what do you mean I'm not the Great Mediator that I think I am? It's my story! LOL!

AND AS FAR AS THAT GOES NO ONE ELSE EXCEPT ME IS GETTING THAT TITLE FOR NOW BECAUSE IVE BEEN THE ONLY PERSON TO TALK WITH BOTHS SIDES AND ASK THE SIMPLE GOD DAMN QUESTION WHAT WOULD IT TAKE TO MAKE THE OTHER SIDE HAPPY AND TO END ALL THIS BULLSHIT? NOT FAVORING YOU OR SFW. THATS WHAT YOU DO IF YOUR TRYING TO FIX A PROBLEM! NOT JUST TO SAY IF THIS ISNT 100% MY WAY OR YOUR WAY THEN SEE YOU IN COURT OR SCREW YOU, WE HAVE TO MUCH CLOUT WE CAN DO WHATEVER WE WANT. I ALSO SAID TO BOTH SIDES THAT THIS THING IS GOING TO COME TO A HEAD AND DWR IS GOING TO GET RID OF THE TAGS BECAUSE THEIR TRIED OF IT ALL, AND THEN EVERYONE LOSES.

I DONT HAVE TO LIVE SOMEWHERE TO UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS SAID BETWEEN THE THREE OF US! I ASKED YOU IF YOU COULD LET THE PAST 10 OR 20 YEARS GO AND START FRESH AND YOU SAID YES, THATS ALL YOU WANTED WAS A FRESH START GOING FORWARD BY FIXING THESE PROBLEMS. SO HERE'S YOUR CHANCE TO BE THE GREAT MEDIATOR, SIT DOWN WITH SFW ON A NEUTRAL PLAYING FIELD AND WORK TOGETHER TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM, ITS THAT GOD DAMN SIMPLE! AND IF SFW DOESNT WANT TO DO THIS THEN BY ALL MEANS CONTINUE WITH THE GOOD FIGHT BECAUSE NOW ITS ON THEM!

AND TO THE PERSON SAYING I'M LIVING IN NEVER LAND. ALL I CAN SAY IS THAT WHEN I WAS YOUNGER I COULDNT KEEP MY BIG MOUTH SHUT, BECAUSE "DAMN IT I'M RIGHT, AND RIGHTS RIGHT AND WRONGS WRONG", AND ALL IT DID WAS CAUSE ME MORE PROBLEMS, BUT DAMN IT I WAS RIGHT!

In one of my favorite songs John Mellencamp sings I DO THINGS MY WAY BUT I PAY A HIGH PRICE! That verse has always spoke to me because it is true. Even though most of my life I didn't take that advice.
Now I'm older and have changed my approach and I've been much happier ever since. LIFE TOO SHORT!
And the best thing is now my wife gets to say I told you so! LMAO!

I did nothing but compliment you on your tenacity and your willing to go to hell and back to right a wrong, to the SFW members as you both know.

Now I want everyone to understand I have nothing but respect for the people I spoke with on both sides of the fence. So stop clouding the issues sit down and fix it!

Sincerly Joe

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-17-16 AT 03:37PM (MST)[p]>I don't know the details about
>the Artic Red River Outfitters
>other than what I have
>been told, which is that
>wealthy SFW donor purchased it
>and donated it to SFW
>in an effort to help
>generate a revenue stream to
>offset expenses so that more
>of the money raised by
>SFW from tags, banquets, mebership
>fees, etc. could go to
>actual conservation. Somebody from
>SFW could certainly explain this
>better than me since I
>have no first hand knowledge.
> But I thought I
>would throw that out there
>since I have been accused
>of "letting the dogs run
>wild."
>
>http://www.arcticred-nwt.com/index-1.html
>
>I prefer to stick to topics
>that I know and understand.
>
>
>-Hawkeye-

You're correct and quite accurate with your post.

I'll say this about you: You seem to be fair and far less emotional and much more rational than many who post here. You also stick to the facts pretty darn well and I don't expect you to herd the cats all the time. ha

We might be on different "sides" but I have a great amount of respect for you as a person. I kinda like your brother-in-law too!

Thanks for the reply,
Zeke
 
Back at you Zeke. I would like to sit down with you some time and hear you views on this issue -- away from the drama of the internet. It is okay to disagree. But if you truly agree that things could and should be done differently moving forward, then help push for change from the inside of SFW. Positive change as you stated above. I tried the friendly, positive, buddy approach years ago and it went no where. But you are probably more diplomatic than me and it is certainly worth trying again. In the meantime, I will keep banging the drum on this issue and hoping that somebody will eventually listen.

And I kind of like my brother-in-law too. He grows on you over time.

-Hawkeye-
 
SO what do yall want? It isn't more money for wildlife. Now yall say yall want an audit. OK You pay for it. If SFW comes out legal put your money where your mouth is and tell them you'll pay for the lawyers and accountants. I went through an audit this year. Came out clean. Still cost me thousands of dollars. If yall are going to act like a bunch of un-American nit wits who think people are guilty until proven innocent just by whatever "innuendo" some zealots can muster up then I think the cost of the audit should be placed right on you.

I think its funny none of yall are honest about what you want but I can be real honest with you about what I want.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-17-16 AT 04:32PM (MST)[p]Thanks Hawkeye for clearing that up. One more thing. John Bairs sheep hunt was not on artic red but something he booked separate from a different company.
 
Joe-

Stop screaming brother. We are good. I did not accuse you of throwing me under the bus. I merely stated that despite your noble effort to get up to speed on these issues in a short period of time, alot of us folks have been living this for many years and have a pretty good understanding of the issues. Does that lead to some frustration and at times irritation? Yes it does.

As I stated above, there have been discussions with SFW going back several years. I spoke with a board member again last night and it was a positive discussion. That being said, this problem will get fixed when the groups decide that they want to fix it. They have all the power right now. However, that may change if we can trigger an audit of the Expo tag program and shine a light on this problem.

You can keep the title of the Great Mediator. It suits you well. And if this problem eventually gets resolved, you can take credit for that too. I don't care how it happens or who gets the credit. I just want to see this problem fixed. I am still buying dinner if you ever make that long journey to Utah.

-Hawkeye-
 
Birdman, that's why I don't play referee and fact checker on other folks' posts. Because I don't have first hand information. You are much better suited to clear up misconceptions about SFW.

-Hawkeye-
 
Thanks Hawkeye, back at ya. Come to IL and I'll buy dinner and take you all duck hunting or something. Bring ole Lumpy with ya and The Bob Cat if possible. I love me some Bob Cat!

Thanks Joe

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
 
By the way, there was an independent audit done in both 2014 and 2015. 2014 stated 88 cents out of every dollar went back on the ground. 2015 has not come back as far as I know but the statement made to me was even more % went on the ground
 
>Thanks Hawkeye for clearing that up.
> One more thing.
>John Bairs sheep hunt
>was not on artic red
>but something he booked separate
>from a different company.


Thanks for the clarification Birdman. I want to apologize to everyone for the "unPC way" I am on this topic, but I hope people can see when things like this are asked about and kept in the closet that it's just human nature for conjecture and innuendos to run rampant. I guess it's because of the career I had seeing so many people, especially the elderly, getting taken to the cleaners by unscrupulous people. I really wish I could keep the emotions in check and will try to do better, as I really look up to Hawkeye and the way he handles himself. Quite a guy!
 
Thanks Birdman but we are talking about an audit of the money raised specifically from the $5 Expo tag application fees. The roughly $1 million per year that is generated "to fund wildlife conservation activities in Utah." (R657-4-1). AS explained before, I am not interested in SFW's other sources of revenue. As you know, the "audits" done by the DWR prior to 2013, never looked at how any of that money was spent. And after 2013, the groups were only required by the DWR to dedicate 30% to actual conservation.

-Hawkeye-
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-17-16 AT 05:41PM (MST)[p]TOPGUN, that was by far your best post ever! See, I didn't spout off to you after some of your comments because I knew there was a reason for your passionate feelings about something so far away from where you live and I was right. See what happens when you stop and listen, and try to put yourself in the others persons shoes? I commend you for that,

Your buddy
Joe

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
 
Here is my question and thanks to Zeke and birdman for clearing some stuff up

But isn't it bad business for sfw to let this get to where it has gotten .losing the public's trust? Like this

They had a great opportunity given to them to really make a difference and be a solid organization not just in utah but all over .if they would have been transparent with their money and actually used it for bettering utah's wildlife. and in my opinion and obviously a whole lot of other people's they got greedy and miss represented utah and where the money actually went.because that is a whole lot of money with little to no production what have they done with it conservation wise???.

So as an organization like sfw. why from a business conservation sense would you let your name get dragged through the mud like there name has?

It would be a smarter move by them to come fourth and admit there were some wrong doings and mishandling of the public's money in the early beginings. Then ask for forgiveness and put the now raised money to work and make things right going forward .

But instead they hide everything and let the public speculation build and totally whiff on the potential that the expo tags bring.

It makes alot of people believe that the deep dark sfw secrets are extremely bad with legal ramifications. And that state politicians are involved as well.

So wouldn't it be smarter and easier if they were truly not guilty of any wrong doing .to just show the books show the conservation efforts and prove where all of this money had gone. WHERE THERE IS SMOKE THERE IS USUALLY FIRE. It's really really simple sfw took the public's assets 200 expo tags and will not prove that they made every effort to spend that money to better utah's wildlife
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-17-16 AT 06:30PM (MST)[p]Desertpointbrian, all of these things have been brought up till everyone's faces have turned blue, in the other forums. I totally agree with you, but as I have said earlier today it's gotten to the point where this will never get resolved.

I think its become good drama to get sucked into

Thanks Zeke, I appreciate it

Joe

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
 
I lovehow you say they lost the public's trust.

Most of the public couldn't give a rat's a$$ and you and the rest of these whiners never did trust them.
 
>I lovehow you say they lost
>the public's trust.
>
>Most of the public couldn't give
>a rat's a$$ and you
>and the rest of these
>whiners never did trust them.
>


Again tristate grown up talk. Get back to school you could use the education
 
>Desertpointbrian, all of these things have
>been brought up till everyone's
>faces have turned blue, in
>the other forums. I totally
>agree with you, but as
>I have said earlier today
>it's gotten to the point
>where this will never get
>resolved.
>
>I think its become good drama
>to get sucked into
>
>Joe
>
>"Sometimes you do things wrong for
>so long you
>think their right" - 2001
>"I can't argue with honesty" -
>2005
>-Joe E Sikora

Yes it has all been brought up but still no legit answers from where the money has went and what they have done with it. All you get from some of these sfw representatives is the general public is stupid we don't care what you think we will do what we do and you can't stop us. To be able to showcase their representatives attitudes towards other sportsman and to the people who made them that is important
 
DPB,
Do I think things could have been done differently? Sure, I think many will admit that.
Do I think that SFW could "come clean" (as some put it) and would be embraced by everyone (or even most the detractors) Hell no!
I think there are a handful of the fence-sitter who would "see the light" but my fear is that too many find it fashionable to bash rather than work for change.
There are too many who have their "personal" agendas and have no inclination to work WITH SFW. (Not directed at anyone)
Time will tell.
There's my 2 cents,
Zeke
 
264mag, thanks for the PM

Your friend
Joe

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
 
>DPB,
>Do I think things could have
>been done differently? Sure, I
>think many will admit that.
>
>Do I think that SFW could
>"come clean" (as some put
>it) and would be embraced
>by everyone (or even most
>the detractors) Hell no!
>I think there are a handful
>of the fence-sitter who would
>"see the light" but my
>fear is that too many
>find it fashionable to bash
>rather than work for change.
>
>There are too many who have
>their "personal" agendas and have
>no inclination to work WITH
>SFW. (Not directed at anyone)
>
>Time will tell.
>There's my 2 cents,
>Zeke

Zeke me personally and I think alot of others do not care who has the expo tags rmef or sfw. As long as the right thing is being done with the money. If sfw came out and made things right and put that money on the ground the average sportsman could care less about the political bs . People take the future opportunities for the next generation very serious
 
Hawkeye, what I was thinking was since there was a complete audit of sfw money that would include any of the $5 fee. I could be wrong but when our company is audited, it includes everything.
 
I am happy to see that the conversation has taken a turn for the positive and is more focused on the core issues.

Zeke and several others have suggested that even if SFW and MDF stepped up and agreed to be transparent that folks would just complain about something else. I personally don't agree with that notion. As I explained to an SFW board member earlier this week, if SFW and MDF would fix this problem by dedicating the Expo tag revenues to actual conservation projects and providing an annual accounting (just like they already do with the conservation tag monies), I believe that 90 to 95% of the complaints would be resolved. Would there be some folks who still dislike SFW? Sure. But the vast majority of the sportsmen who are angry and frustrated with SFW are focused on the lack of accountability and transparency, and the fact that SFW and MDF have ignored the concerns and complaints of sportsmen for years. It is a cop out for SFW supporters to say "they are all haters" or "we will never be able to make them happy" in response to questions about accountability and transparency with our public tags. The reality is there is no real defense to the core concern expressed by sportsmen.

I also find it interesting when folks suggest that sportsmen should stop complaining and "work with SFW" or "work in a positive manner" for change. What does this even mean? That we should ask the groups nicely to account for monies generated from our public tags in the name of conservation? That we should get involved in the public process and attend RAC and Wildlife Board meeting to express our concerns? That we should email conservation group and DWR leaders? That we should get involved in the rule making/amendment process and request change? That we should propose a rule amendment that would address the problem? We have done all of that and more. And what have the DWR, SFW and MDF done in response? Over the course of 10 years they have moved from 0% accountability to 30% accountability. At that rate, it will take another 20 years to get this problem resolved.

Has this issue become divisive among sportsmen? Yes. But I do not believe that is the fault of sportsmen who are asking these groups to do the right thing. Rather, it is the fault of the DWR and the conservation groups who have refused to listen to sportsmen and put in place controls that really should have been there from the beginning. To quote my buddy Muley 73, I wish there was a "silver bullet" that would allow sportsmen to fix this problem but there is not. However, the groups and the DWR to can fix this problem today, tomorrow or 20 years from now. Let's see what they do.

-Hawkeye-
 
There will always be opposition in all things. Man's nature. With this last Expo I did see lots of questions about the monies and seen many new members. With the record year the Expo had, more and more people joining, putting in for tags, spending money, I don't think the majority of people are worried about it.
If the dwr,sfw,or mdf have broken any law, I think something would have come of it. I am one that believes with all the different subjects that have come up, that no matter what happens there will still be problems. So many issues in the past. Not just the $5 tag issue but many other things. With their recent overall audit by an cpa firm giving them 88 cents of every dollar on the ground I would think things would be better. We have seen on this thread people not only the $5 issue but the Artic red gift issue put into place so that more and more money can go on the ground. The Don Peay consulting fees etc. People here have no idea what Don does, it is just hatred. So the issue of sfw is not going away anytime soon. I fought them at first for years but after looking into it I realized I didn't agree with everything but I did agree with most thus making a positive mark in hunting.
 
Ken-

Don't mistake folks coming to the Expo and putting in for the tags with with blanket support for SFW or SFW's use of the $5 fee application fees. I have often heard people say that PETA, HSUS or SUWA could host an Expo and if they offered a chance a 200 premium permits, sportsmen would show up and apply. You guys do put on a good show but there is also some truth to the statement that the tags are the primary driver.

You mentioned that folks on this thread have also mentioned Artic Red River Outfitters and the hundreds of thousands of dollars paid to Don Peay in consulting fees. Right now, sportsmen have a right to ask about those issues because they are concerned about what SFW and MDF are doing with money from our public tags that was supposed to be for "wildlife conservation activities." If SFW and MDF accounted for that public money and showed that it was being properly spent on actual conservation activities then it would be easy for SFW to address those other issues. Those would discussions that SFW would welcome. You got to pick the right battles if you want to win the war.

-Hawkeye-
 
Birdman, when you get a second would you mind posting a link to, or a full copy of, the 2014 audit?

Grizzly
 
Birdman hit the nail on the head? ?Record year more people putting in for tags?.

The tags are the reason the attendance is up. The tags are the draw that brings people to the expo and is the reason revenues are up. The tags are the reason people show up and walk the exhibit floors. I wonder what your expo would be like without those tags that the citizens of Utah graciously allow you to manage?

I know I'm a new comer to posting on these forums and may lack some of the clout some of you multi posters have, but I was expecting some type of response from 2Lumpy, Muely_73 or any other SFW supporter to the questions I asked, but we have nothing?

You don't have to answer all my question just narrow it down to one. How about this one

What is more important to you, wildlife conservation or the preservation of SFW?

Cherry
 
"I also find it interesting when folks suggest that sportsmen should stop complaining and "work with SFW" or "work in a positive manner" for change. What does this even mean?"


It means SFW RMEF MDF don't have a monopoly on conservation. It means that you are just as free to make the best conservation organization in North America as you are to being the biggest titty baby whiner. SO make the choice for action and lead by example. You know the best way so go make it the best way. People respect and follow a man that leads, not some kid who wants to throw a tantrum for five years straight.

I'll even cut you a deal Hawkeye. You establish a conservation organization that does a better job and I'll become a life member.
 
>Birdman, when you get a second
>would you mind posting a
>link to, or a full
>copy of, the 2014 audit?
>
>
>Grizzly


Yes please i would like to see a link to the full audit as well. That includes expo $$$$
 
Birdman
"There will always be opposition in all things. Man's nature. With this last Expo I did see lots of questions about the monies and seen many new members. With the record year the Expo had, more and more people joining, putting in for tags, spending money, I don't think the majority of people are worried about it."
People aren't worried about it?
 
>"I also find it interesting when
>folks suggest that sportsmen should
>stop complaining and "work with
>SFW" or "work in a
>positive manner" for change. What
>does this even mean?"
>
>
>It means SFW RMEF MDF don't
>have a monopoly on conservation.
> It means that you
>are just as free to
>make the best conservation organization
>in North America as you
>are to being the biggest
>titty baby whiner. SO
>make the choice for action
>and lead by example.
>You know the best way
>so go make it the
>best way. People respect
>and follow a man that
>leads, not some kid who
>wants to throw a tantrum
>for five years straight.
>
>I'll even cut you a deal
>Hawkeye. You establish a
>conservation organization that does a
>better job and I'll become
>a life member.


Thank you for that dissertation and you can now crawl back in your hole piggy! PS: I doubt seriously that he or anyone else would want to cut a deal with you on anything or have you in their organization as divisive as you are on every single thing that comes up!
 
DO you speak for Hawkeye now?????? Where I come from men don't answer for other men. Of course I keep screwing up and assuming that I am dealing with men.

I doubt you or him have the balls to do anything else but whine on a computer forum and talk on the phone. Get off your butts and be the best. Until then your words are useless.
 
People a r not as worried about the $5 fee as some people on mm. Some of you refuse, your right, to not attend the Expo and put in for the tags because you do not agree with things. Your right to do that. Many many more put in for the tags, I believe because they are not as concerned as some of you are.
As for the audit, I am not a spokesman for sfw thus I can not p I st. My company, though new to this, when audited I have never felt it as anything but to see what I have done and my success. You can see what sfw wants by asking.
I think again with everything growing at the expo, people are not as worried about the money, or think it is going wh r email it should. I will admit there are people that are worried but more seem to not be worried.
 
Tristate, I am violating my rule against feeding trolls but I couldn't resist. Chalk it up to a boring day at work.

The issue here is the lack accountabilty and transparency for the monies raised from our public tags. Forming a new competing organization will do nothing to address that problem. We don't need another, new conservation organization. What we need is for the existing organizations to do the right thing. Before you spout off about how I have no right to tell a private group how to manage their business affairs, remember that they are dealing with our public assets.

As to your offer to become a lifetime member of my new conservation organization, no thanks. I will pass on that one. But perhaps SFW or MDF will grant you a free lifetime membership since you have taken it upon yourself to become their spokesman. I bet the SFW leadership shudders as they read your nonsensical posts and worries that the public might somehow mistakenly assume that you actually speak on their behalf.

-Hawkeye-
 
If Peta held a hunt expo that gave away 200 hunting permits the place would still be packed with sportsman. Sfw shouldn't flatter themselves because of the record numbers. You give away 200 premium permits and auction off other tags it doesn't matter who's name is on the front door.


And if people didn't care and want answers you wouldn't see a new one of these threads pop up on a monthly basis you wouldn't have news stations sending personal emails to gather more information (believe me I have received)

So for sfw to let people like tristate represent them on this matter is a mistake because there is alot of information being gathered. And the we don't give a crap attitude that some of the sfw representatives on here put out a bad signal for an already bad situation
 
>People a r not as worried
>about the $5 fee as
>some people on mm.
>Some of you refuse, your
>right, to not attend the
>Expo and put in for
>the tags because you do
>not agree with things.
>Your right to do that.
> Many many more put
>in for the tags, I
>believe because they are not
>as concerned as some of
>you are.
> As
>for the audit, I am
>not a spokesman for sfw
>thus I can not p
>I st. My company,
>though new to this, when
>audited I have never felt
>it as anything but to
>see what I have done
>and my success. You
>can see what sfw wants
>by asking.
> I
>think again with everything growing
>at the expo, people are
>not as worried about the
>money, or think it is
>going wh r email it
>should. I will admit there
>are people that are worried
>but more seem to not
>be worried.

I know alot of people who went for the show and to put in for tags

That still are disgusted with sfw. A chance at a premium tag is worth it to them. But they still send the emails to legislative and still want this fixed.

No suprise on the no link to the audit nobody can find it or what.
 
And having new vendors who sell nothing hunting related like pillows hats and diesel trucks probably helps inflate your numbers as well.

But go ahead as an organization and turn a blind eye to the public's concerns it's only a few
 
I respectfully disagree with Hawkeye.

Me thinks there's just too much venom among the detractors to please them regardless of some "special" audit on the "200" tags.

While there are a few who are looking for change/info, there are many more who have made it their mission to "hate" (there's your word of the day). Look at the diverse posts just on this thread alone as evidence that there are many many more who worry about other things than just the 200 tags.

There are, and will forever be, those who come up with all sorts of fantasy about SFW simply because they don't know anything about which they speak. The evidence is there and it cannot be denied.

Like Hawkeye said, "pick the battles to win the war". So is the 200 tags the battle and dissolution of SFW the war? Please define your goals, if you wouldn't mind.

I respectfully agree with Hawkeye that the tone of this thread has taken a turn for the good. I wonder how long it will last.

Zeke
 
>If Peta held a hunt expo
>that gave away 200 hunting
>permits the place would still
>be packed with sportsman.

That make good reading among the dissenters but it's not true and hardly constructive.

This is exactly my point.

Zeke
 
By the way; what's the highest post count for a single thread on MM.

If we all work together we can surely top the count of any other thread!

(okay, this isn't that important, sorry)

Zeke
 
I understand what you're saying but did you stop and think it's only one of the equations of the expo.

One thing I cannot wrap my brain around is, why do some think it's so awesome that one con org built a great expo, which is enjoyed by thousands and thousands of folks, and another con org coveted it?

I understand competition but this thing got totally out of hand, IMHO.

It would be great if RMEF did bring an epxo (their own) to Utah but that's far from what I think they wanted.

Zeke
 
Hawkeye,

That is one long winded lazy man's copout. Mule deer need all the conservation help they can get. The state agencies do next to nothing for them and the conservation groups do projects on less than %5 of the viable habitat out there.

If you know the better way and so many people are disgusted with SFW people will follow you. Pretty soon you could put in the bid for the tags for your organization. These are competing BUSINESSES. If you want better BUSINESSES you bring more competition and let the masses decide.

As for SFW's feelings for what I say on here I CAN CARE LESS. They can probably read and can tell I am here for the deer first. Your feelings, and their's too, are secondary.


Like I have said before there are people driven to make a change and people who sit on their a$$ and whine about change. You decide.

For example I am going to work this weekend on a habitat project I started a couple of months ago. I complained about a problem that was thirty years past due for two years and nobody listened. Finally realized nobody cared about me whining. So I got my chainsaw, ax, and my three kids and we started working. Two months later I have three other men and three skidstears working on it. I took the lead and others are following.
 
>>If Peta held a hunt expo
>>that gave away 200 hunting
>>permits the place would still
>>be packed with sportsman.
>
>That make good reading among the
>dissenters but it's not true
>and hardly constructive.
>
>This is exactly my point.
>
>Zeke

Oh, but IMHO it is true Zeke. Look how many people on this website alone that live in Utah are disgusted with this whole thing and say so on threads like this. Yet every year when it's time for the Expo a lot of them feel that at least they might as well put in for those premium tags since they belong to the citizens and someone will get them, so you see a thread come up asking for who's going. In case you didn't notice, there weren't too many that came on this year when the question came up saying yes compared to the number that said no way Jose!

Birdman has also stated that most people don't worry about the money and it shows in the increase of people at the expo. That may be true, but probably would change quickly if everyone that came to the front door was advised as to what is happening, given a chance to look at things like we are, and then asked do they want to go on through the doors! My guess is that there would be a lot of U turns back to their vehicles.

The Artic Red River outfitter situation was also brought up because for many it just doesn't look good for what is supposed to be a nonprofit organization when they are the outright owner and won't be more upfront with things concerning it I hope you can see that as soon as that picture of Bair was posted why people would think the way they do even if it was on the up and up. If the explanation that it was gifted by a donor and shown to be true right out in the open from day one IMHO it would have been water under the bridge and forgotten by most.
The other thing that really stands out as bogus is the huge amount of money spent for "consulting fees" on top of approximately 1/4 million dollars in salaries to the top people. It's hard to imagine that 88% of the money is going back on the ground like Birdman has stated when you look at line items in the tax returns like that. When it's brought up what do we get but a wiseacre and a lot of other joking that the guy is worth millions! The way things are going I'm sure he literally is.

In conclusion, when things are kept under wraps like the SFW is doing with the tremendous amount of money that the $5 application fee generates, it is just human nature to figure that where there's smoke there's fire.
 
That's a great idea Zeke split the tags. give 100 to sfw and give the other 100 to rmef let's see who does what with it and keep both of them honest
 
Why do you care what con org built or which one converted?

The concern should be which one is putting forth the most $?s to wildlife conservation. The 30% to 100% cannot be dismissed.

If you think it would be great for RMEF to host an expo in Utah than are you willing to recommend to the DWR that they split the 200 tags in half. 100 to SFW & MDF and 100 go to REMF. By doing so we can than find out which con org really puts the most $?s towards Utah conservation and it would fair competition and the winner would be the wildlife of Utah.

What is more important to you, wildlife conservation or the preservation of SFW.
Cherry
 
I can't believe we are arguing if PETA was selling deer tags how good they would do. Is this really want counts for logic these days?

And then this horse crap of what makes a company "non-profit" that apparently you don't understand. That doesn't mean the employees can't profit or even get rich. Wounded Warrior Project, HSUS, ANCF, WWF etc. pay out millions and millions of dollars in salaries each year. They are businesses that produce paying jobs.
 
>I understand what you're saying but
>did you stop and think
>it's only one of the
>equations of the expo.
>
>One thing I cannot wrap my
>brain around is, why do
>some think it's so awesome
>that one con org built
>a great expo, which is
>enjoyed by thousands and thousands
>of folks, and another con
>org coveted it?
>
>I understand competition but this thing
>got totally out of hand,
>IMHO.
>
>It would be great if RMEF
>did bring an epxo (their
>own) to Utah but that's
>far from what I think
>they wanted.
>
>Zeke

Zeke, it may be only one part of the equation, but we're talking over a million dollars a year raised by just that "one piece of the equation" that's not being accounted for! You don't really in your right mind think the RMEF with well over 200,000 members and an already hugely successful convention with many thousands of visitors from all over the country "covets" SFW! Please tell me you were joking when making that statement. Also, your last statement is actually correct in that yes, the Expo would have to be held in Utah by whatever organization gets the contract because that's the way things are designed and set up. However, again you certainly have to be kidding with the "that's far from what they wanted" when all you have to do is read their bid and see the huge financial gain it would have meant for wildlife and SLC with what they offered. The only reason IMHO that bid was offered was to try to get the state of Utah back on track with the proper handling of it's public resources and nothing else.
 
Wow tristate you are not the brightest star in the sky. Nobody was claiming Peta could hold a good expo. The fact is 200 premium permits sell themselves so you sfw guys shouldn't take it to your head. Because I highly doubt your memberships are through the roof. Other then simple inflation. The product is what sells at the expo
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-16 AT 01:14PM (MST)[p]>That's a great idea Zeke split
>the tags. give 100 to
>sfw and give the other
>100 to rmef let's see
>who does what with it
>and keep both of them
>honest

No sfw takers on that idea it would keep everyone honest
 
I'll make the same wild-azz claims that some of you make. Here's one for ya.

If you're telling me that PETA would sell as many tags and make as much expo tag money as SFW, them I'm signing up for PETA today!

Ridiculous huh? Just like the ridiculous statements by some when they say "show me the ________ and I'll join SFW today" Yah, right!

No one is changing their mind regardless of what's said, discussed. proven, unproven, accounted for, not accounted for. Period.

Therefore, I respectfully disagree when some of you tell me that you'll join if_____ happens. I know humans too well. You'll never change sides. I know it, SFW knows it and you know it unless you're delusional.

There's NOTHING that SFW can do, nothing that I can do to sway you guys away from your venom toward SFW.

It's been interesting to read this thread. I'm sure we can top 300 if someone throws out a couple more fact-less innuendos.

Zeke
 
As for Bairs sheep, I am not even sure he was on the board when that hunt was taken. Been a while back. Yes artic red is used to supplement pay for the 5 employees sfw has. I know a lot of people talk about Peay's wages, but if you do not understand what he is doing you should not make non knowing comments. He had an engineering company long before this all started and was a wealthy individual that cares more about hunting and sold his company. I would not, or could not do what he does for twice the money. If you look at the wages paid with no benefits at all, no retirement or medical not as good as other organizations. Not to say bad about reef but they are mentioned in this thread, there people get salaries that are great, retirement package and medical. Don't know how many employees they have to run their organization, it is big, but lots of goodies go with it. I know own what they said they would do with monies generated at the expo but I have to wonder, back a few years ago when David Allan mentioned they would give 100% percent of conservation tag money back to states, according to the audits on conservation tags at the wlb when the question was ask, they keep 10% like all groups. Just makes me think how serious they are in their words.
As for spokesmen for sfw on this thread, they are members but not authorized to speak for sfw. Especially tristate. He has nothing to do with sfw.
 
I'm waiting still waiting for a explantion how 30% is better than 100%? Isn't this about generating $ for wildlife??
 
>I'll make the same wild-azz claims
>that some of you make.
>Here's one for ya.
>
>If you're telling me that PETA
>would sell as many tags
>and make as much expo
>tag money as SFW, them
>I'm signing up for PETA
>today!
>
>Ridiculous huh? Just like the ridiculous
>statements by some when they
>say "show me the ________
>and I'll join SFW today"
>Yah, right!
>
>No one is changing their mind
>regardless of what's said, discussed.
>proven, unproven, accounted for, not
>accounted for. Period.
>
>Therefore, I respectfully disagree when some
>of you tell me that
>you'll join if_____ happens. I
>know humans too well. You'll
>never change sides. I know
>it, SFW knows it and
>you know it unless
>you're delusional.
>
>There's NOTHING that SFW can do,
>nothing that I can do
>to sway you guys away
>from your venom toward SFW.
>
>
>It's been interesting to read this
>thread. I'm sure we can
>top 300 if someone throws
>out a couple more fact-less
>innuendos.
>
>Zeke


They are not "wild azz claims"! Those 200 premium game tags with the required $5 application fee would make a million dollars for any group or person that got them and you no darn well that's true. Now you're calling me a liar and delusional for the statement I made about addressing the transparency with that $5 application fee money and that I might join the group. THAT is the type of divisive statements you guys continue to make all the while not doing a thing to help dig your organization out of the hole it's dug for itself when it would be very easy to audit that money and eliminate the problem once and for all. It's this type of attitude that "nothing the SFW can do to sway you guys away" and calling what we are asking for "venom" that just continues on year after year while the public assets are not rightfully taken care of the way things were originally designed to be done. It sure seems like a guy would want to belong to an organization that people were applauding every time they turn around, rather than one where things are done improperly such that many people think a bunch of crooks are running it. Shame, a dang shame for what so easily could be rectified in a day or two!
 
Topgun,
If you wish to read into my post that I called you a liar, so be it.

It seems to prove that no amount of discussion can change someone's mind and I should have known better than to "come out of the woodwork" and "sound like 2Lumpy".

Just about the time we think the environment has changed on this thread...... thanks Topgun for jerking me back to reality.

Please talk quietly among yourselves.

Zeke
 
Don't think anyone from sfw said that statement. I think it came from someone on mm to downgrade sfw. As far as how much goes on the ground of the $5, I don't know for sure but I would bet that most if not all goes to wildlife, including fishing and upland game. I know it doesn't go into someone's pocket.
 
When will the SFW supporters provide some information with substantive value to counter the claim that SFW is abusing the tax payers of Utah?

The answer to that question is never. Instead, we will get meaningless assertions that say RMEF employees get good benefits so they are being compensated on par with Don Peay.
 
>As for Bairs sheep, I am
>not even sure he was
>on the board when that
>hunt was taken. Been
>a while back. Yes
>artic red is used to
>supplement pay for the 5
>employees sfw has. I
>know a lot of people
>talk about Peay's wages, but
>if you do not understand
>what he is doing you
>should not make non knowing
>comments. He had an
>engineering company long before this
>all started and was a
>wealthy individual that cares more
>about hunting and sold his
>company. I would not,
>or could not do what
>he does for twice the
>money. If you look
>at the wages paid with
>no benefits at all, no
>retirement or medical not as
>good as other organizations.
> Not to say bad
>about reef but they are
>mentioned in this thread, there
>people get salaries that are
>great, retirement package and medical.
>Don't know how many employees
>they have to run their
>organization, it is big, but
>lots of goodies go with
>it. I know own
>what they said they would
>do with monies generated at
>the expo but I have
>to wonder, back a few
>years ago when David Allan
>mentioned they would give 100%
>percent of conservation tag money
>back to states, according to
>the audits on conservation tags
>at the wlb when the
>question was ask, they keep
>10% like all groups.
>Just makes me think how
>serious they are in their
>words.
> As for spokesmen for
>sfw on this thread,
>they are members but not
>authorized to speak for sfw.
> Especially tristate. He
>has nothing to do with
>sfw.


So tell us what all Peay is doing for his half million dollar cut a year! You say we don't know and we don't, so you are so close with the group and know what he's doing, please tell us. If I hear you say one more time about RMEF not giving back 100% now as an excuse for SFW doing what it's doing I'm going to puke. You accuse everyone of making false, untrue accusations and then turn right around and do the same thing when they have given back 100% and even more regarding the auction tags situation. Shame on you and go look it up, rather than slander the organization CEO as a liar! Why don't you get someone on here that CAN speak for SFW and straighten this out once and for all with some honest answers? Nope, they'd rather take that million dollars until they are absolutely forced to play fair and hopefully that day is coming.
 
Zeke-

I am enjoying the discussion. Let me respond to a couple of points you raised..

First, RMEF did not submit a proposal to take over the Western Hunting and Conservation Expo that was "built" by SFW and MDF. Rather, RMEF submitted a proposal to be awarded the next contract for the 200 Expo tags. As part of that proposal, RMEF committed that they would bring their own National Convention to Utah for the full term of the contract and make the 200 Expo tags available at their National Convention. Even if RMEF would have been awarded the Expo tag contract, SFW and MDF could have continued hosting the Western Hunting and Conservation Expo but without the 200 tags. We need to stop confusing the Expo tags with the Western Hunting and Conservation Expo.

Second, there was nothing nefarious or covetous about RMEF submitting a proposal for the Expo tag contract. The DWR's own administrative rules state that the contract would come up for renewal every 5 years and any conservation organization in the country had the right to submit an application. Futhermore, the DWR claimed that they were trying to promote competition and a level playing field (cough loudly). Assuming that was true, the DWR and the State of Utah were inviting competition. Plus, as citizens and taxpayers we should all want to see competition and the maximum return from our public assets.

Finally, we did not think it was "awesome that one con org built a great expo, which is enjoyed by thousands and thousands of folks, and another con org coveted it." Rather, we thought it was awesome that after nearly a decade of SFW and MDF making excuses and dragging their feet, another conservation organization was voluntarily offering to do the right thing with the monies generated from those tags. After personally hearing SFW and MDF state in 2012 that nobody could afford to put on a show like this without keeping large amounts of the application fees to offset the costs, RMEF's proposal torpedoed that argument.

I have huge respect for RMEF and what they offered the State of Utah. That being said, however, I am fine with another group having the Expo tag contract if it is truly the best proposal and they honor the committment to use the application fee "revenues for wildlife conservation activites."

-Hawkeye-
 
>Don't think anyone from sfw said
>that statement. I think
>it came from someone on
>mm to downgrade sfw.
>As far as how much
>goes on the ground of
>the $5, I don't know
>for sure but I would
>bet that most if not
>all goes to wildlife, including
>fishing and upland game.
>I know it doesn't
>go into someone's pocket.


Here you go again with "I think" and "I know", but can't prove a thing because nothing is accounted for!
 
>I am just still waiting for
>the link to the audit
>that included the expo dollars.
>

Don't hold your breath, as I don't know CPR!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-16 AT 03:20PM (MST)[p]Zeke said: "No one is changing their mind regardless of what's said, discussed. proven, unproven, accounted for, not accounted for. Period."

Not true. I used to be a member of SFW and I changed my mind and left due to this very issue. I know many folks who have done the same. I believe the "venom toward SFW," as you say, is in large part tied to this very issue. Many folks have already "changed sides" due to SFW's and MDF's refusal to do the right thing.

-Hawkeye-
 
In case you ever wondered what kind of children are posting on this topic we now have this quote.

"until they are absolutely forced to play FAIR"


The f-word. I can't believe a grown man would say that. Maybe he was crying while typing.
 
Top, as I go back threw threads on the statement 30 percent better than 70 I have not seen it used except by the non Lakers of saw and all I found is it started by someone saying of let's see 30% better the 70%. Saw didn't say it. Your the expert on the net, show me where I am wrong. Second not trying to slander reef Mr allan. At the wildlife board meeting in utah, at the audit of conservation tags, All groups, including rmef kept 10% that from the dark audit. Not a guess or slander, just a statement given at the audit of conservation tags.
Not trying to be smart but stating an observation topgun. Can't prove it, just the statement at the audit.
 
>In case you ever wondered what
>kind of children are posting
>on this topic we now
>have this quote.
>
>"until they are absolutely forced to
>play FAIR"
>
>
>The f-word. I can't believe
>a grown man would say
>that. Maybe he was
>crying while typing.


I would use bigger words in my posts, but realizing that a Texas Aggie is reading them I figured I had better stay with simple 4 letter words. Even then that is probably three letters too many!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-16 AT 07:18PM (MST)[p]So for anybody sitting on the fence on this matter that does not want to read through all 300 posts here is the jiff.

Numerous of people have asked to see where all of the money from the expo goes.
Sfw and anybody affiliated with them will not provide these documents. they claim there was an audit but nobody has the link that can show the millions of Expo dollars on the audit or any kind of paper trail whatsoever.

The people who are asking where the money goes are idiots and are just jealous haters. sfw supporters and members words not mine.their other defense is people have other motives then just wanting the truth.

BOTTOM LINE THEY RECEIVED MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF YOUR DOLLARS FROM THE EXPO AND HAVE PUT NEXT TO NOTHING BACK INTO UTAH'S WILDLIFE. Except their words not mine political conservation. THEY ARE RIPPING YOU GUYS OFF And absolutely refuse to work with the public as far as making the best decisions for utah wildlife.

And most importantly they could careless about the public. I am sure some of their representatives will try to muddy this post up some more so if you want to. feel free to come up with your own decision.but the FACT IS THEY CAN NOT ACCOUNT FOR THE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS THAT WAS GIVEN TO THEM BY THE EXPO.
 

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