Expo Tags Article

Hawkeye

Hawkeye

Long Time Member
Messages
3,014
LAST EDITED ON Feb-11-16 AT 09:12AM (MST)[p]http://www.standard.net/Recreation/2016/02/10/Transparency-still-debated-around-2016-Western-Hunting-and-Conservation-Expo.html

A few of my favorite quotes:

1. When asked how that money was spent, SFW President Jon Larson said that he guessed ?the majority of it? was spent on conservation. However, Larson only recently became president of SFW and could not say for sure.

2. David Allen, President of the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation said: ?Our finances are done by a third party audit every year. That audit is made public. Nobody down there in Utah is operating under the same scenario. The public is the one that deserves the honesty and the accountability.?

3. Chris Carling, Chief Marketing Officer for SFW, suggested during a January 2016 interview that any concerned members of the public, ?Attend the expo. It's a model trying to be emulated by every other state in the union."

4. Sheehan and Canning encouraged the public to get involved with and push for change. ?The public process got us to where we are today,? Canning wrote in a recent email. ?But they should work through the established process to make changes they feel are necessary. If the public agrees, changes will be made.?

5. In response to some sportsmen?s accusations that the DWR should have required audits of Expo Permit application revenue from the beginning of the process, Sheehan, who stopped serving as the administrative services chief of the DWR in 2012, said, ?Could we have done some things better? For sure. I wish we had.?

What do you think?

-Hawkeye-
 
Solid reporting. I would have liked to have seen it more clearly stated that the DWR out-rightly accepted a substantially lower SFW bid for the 2017-2021 exp. That's a fact, as was everything else reported.

Glad someone finally put this out in front of eyes other than ours. It needs to go to a much bigger audience than Ogden's Standard Examiner online. Ideally KSL, but they seem to be the DWR's free marketing team as of lately.
 
I think most sportsmen are perfectly fine with the process and the procedures that have been and are presently being followed.

As the article says, some sportsmen disagree. Those that are satisfied are not making their satisfaction known on social media, non are they calling the news media. Those that are dissatisfied are vocal and calling for change.

Personally, I'm satisfied.

I'll be seeing thousand of others who are attending the Expo and participating in "our" version of wildlife hunting and fishing conservation and I hope to see all of the public there, celebrating the life style with us.

The fact the David Allen from the RMEF believes his version of how to run a wildlife conservation group is better or "more ethical" or in line with how he interprets North American Conservation as outlined by T. Roosevelt does not mean, by any means, that Mr. Allen's interpretation is anymore perfect than any other conservation organization's President.

We all believe, " I'm right!" Just because we believe we are right does not necessarily make it so.

Mr. Allen should run RMEF as he and his Board believe they should, according to what they believe is right. I believe he should have the integrity to understand and accept that others see things differently and run their org. the way they believe is "right", based on their interpretation of wildlife conservation.

But....he won't! May as well get used to it. Egos are powerful driving forces, big egos are bigger driving forces. All of this is far more about egos and "got'ya", than it is about who's right and who's wrong.

DC
 
>I think most sportsmen are perfectly
>fine with the process and
>the procedures that have been
>and are presently being followed.
>
>
>As the article says, some sportsmen
>disagree. Those that are
>satisfied are not making their
>satisfaction known on social media,
>non are they calling the
>news media. Those that
>are dissatisfied are vocal and
>calling for change.
>
>Personally, I'm satisfied.
>
>I'll be seeing thousand of others
>who are attending the Expo
>and participating in "our" version
>of wildlife hunting and fishing
>conservation and I hope to
>see all of the public
>there, celebrating the life style
>with us.
>
>The fact the David Allen from
>the RMEF believes his version
>of how to run a
>wildlife conservation group is better
>or "more ethical" or in
>line with how he interprets
>North American Conservation as outlined
>by T. Roosevelt does not
>mean, by any means, that
>Mr. Allen's interpretation is anymore
>perfect than any other conservation
>organization's President.
>
>We all believe, " I'm right!"
> Just because we believe
>we are right does not
>necessarily make it so.
>
>Mr. Allen should run RMEF as
>he and his Board believe
>they should, according to what
>they believe is right. I
>believe he should have the
>integrity to understand and accept
>that others see things differently
>and run their org. the
>way they believe is "right",
>based on their interpretation of
>wildlife conservation.
>
>But....he won't! May as well
>get used to it.
>Egos are powerful driving forces,
>big egos are bigger driving
>forces. All of this
>is far more about egos
>and "got'ya", than it is
>about who's right and who's
>wrong.
>
>DC


BS!!!
 
I will be attending the Hunt Expo today to see some friends and spend time with my wife and three kids. I have spent $20-50 on a few occasions with no luck in these draws. This year I decided to keep my money in my own pocket. I don't know anyone personally who has drawn a tag at the Hunt Expo, but every year about 200 people get lucky.

I understand that there are operating cost for putting on the expo and those need to be covered. Where does my admission money go? I would assume to pay for the venue.

Why can't the state of Utah just set the same tags aside and do their own special drawing? I would still pay $5 for each application and more people would apply if they didn't have to validate in-person. I think the state could do a special draw and get back a lot more than 30% back for conservation.

Obviously the article is biased, but not without cause.

Just my two cents.

Dillon
 
>I think most sportsmen are perfectly
>fine with the process

I think most sportsmen don't know what they don't know.

There are a few thousand guys at most that have followed this closely enough to know what a raw deal the citizens of Utah are getting.

Of those couple thousand or so that have followed this on MM and understand the issue at hand, there is a grand total of 4 that support the current scheme!! You, your boy, birdman and some lunatic pro-poaching taxidermist from out of state.

What's going on is deeply masked in the interworking backrooms of politics. There's a reason people don't know what they don't know. SFW doesn't want them to know.

Explain this to all your groupies that come flocking tonight. Tell them that only 30% of their money is guaranteed to go to conservation. Tell them that 100% of their money, and then some, could have gone to benefit wildlife next year, but it wont. Tell them the DWR passed on that extra several million dollars because they're "comfortable" with the current "arrangement".
 
I wish I owned a business so that I could sell something to 2Lumpy.

Financial adviser: Sir, I was able to earn a -17% return on your investments last year. This is much better than losing 20% or 30%.
2Lumpy: Terrific! I'm satisfied. If my house had burned down I would have lost it all. I'm eternally grateful.

Barber: Uh, sir, the good news is that the left side looks great. The bad news is that I accidentally shaved a swastika in the right side.
2Lumpy: Oooh, that left side sure looks good though. Here's an extra $5.

Car Wash guy: I regret to inform you that our machine broke and put a huge dent in the front fender of your new truck.
2Lumpy: It's clean though, right? That's all I wanted anyway. Do you take credit cards?

Day care: We don't know where your grandson is. He ran away two hours ago. Your other two grandkids are here safe with us.
2Lumpy: 2 out of 3 ain't bad. Are they ready to be picked up?



Vi Et Armis Invictus Maneo
 
I thought it was pretty good. But like others said, it needs to go to a bigger source or paper or news channel to gain any ground. I love Dryflyelk's analogy. But 2Lumpy thinks all is well. GO BERNIE!!!

Some of the things I liked were:

Chris Carling, Chief Marketing Officer for SFW, suggested during a January 2016 interview that any concerned members of the public, ?Attend the expo. It's a model trying to be emulated by every other state in the union.

Wait, havent all the states said NO? If its been so great, you mean to tell me that in 10 years not 1 other state has jumped on board?

When asked how that money was spent, SFW President Jon Larson said that he guessed ?the majority of it? was spent on conservation. However, Larson only recently became president of SFW and could not say for sure.

Well, as a president of an organization and you have no idea what or where the money has gone? HMMMM??

I hope this keeps going. I hope people can see the problem.

And to make this clear, I am not ANTI SFW. I would like to see them do what is right.

I Just hope I dont ever lose 1 of my 4 boys while at Disneyland and say to myself, well, 3 of 4 aint bad! LOL!!! :)
 
>I think most sportsmen are perfectly
>fine with the process and
>the procedures that have been
>and are presently being followed.
>
>
>As the article says, some sportsmen
>disagree. Those that are
>satisfied are not making their
>satisfaction known on social media,
>non are they calling the
>news media. Those that
>are dissatisfied are vocal and
>calling for change.
>
>Personally, I'm satisfied.
>
>I'll be seeing thousand of others
>who are attending the Expo
>and participating in "our" version
>of wildlife hunting and fishing
>conservation and I hope to
>see all of the public
>there, celebrating the life style
>with us.
>
>The fact the David Allen from
>the RMEF believes his version
>of how to run a
>wildlife conservation group is better
>or "more ethical" or in
>line with how he interprets
>North American Conservation as outlined
>by T. Roosevelt does not
>mean, by any means, that
>Mr. Allen's interpretation is anymore
>perfect than any other conservation
>organization's President.
>
>We all believe, " I'm right!"
> Just because we believe
>we are right does not
>necessarily make it so.
>
>Mr. Allen should run RMEF as
>he and his Board believe
>they should, according to what
>they believe is right. I
>believe he should have the
>integrity to understand and accept
>that others see things differently
>and run their org. the
>way they believe is "right",
>based on their interpretation of
>wildlife conservation.
>
>But....he won't! May as well
>get used to it.
>Egos are powerful driving forces,
>big egos are bigger driving
>forces. All of this
>is far more about egos
>and "got'ya", than it is
>about who's right and who's
>wrong.
>
>DC


You are joking right
 
Lumpy posted: "Mr. Allen should run RMEF as he and his Board believe they should, according to what they believe is right. I believe he should have the integrity to understand and accept that others see things differently and run their org. the way they believe is "right", based on their interpretation of wildlife conservation."

Lumpy's "interpretation of wildlife conservation" involves allowing private groups to pocket millions of dollars off of public asets with no accountability or transparency. And then to stand back and question the "integrity" of a competing group who offered to return 100% of the application fees plus 50% of net profits plus an completely independent annual audit?

But don't worry folks, Lumpy is "personally satisifed."

-Hawkeye-
 
Lumpy, you should again bring up your argument that because Kyle Whittingham is paid millions to coach football... its okay that SFW takes millions of dollars by auctioning public property with no accountability that 70% of that money is used to benefit wildlife.

That was EPIC!!!

Grizzly
 
>I wish I owned a business
>so that I could sell
>something to 2Lumpy.
>
>Financial adviser: Sir, I was able
>to earn a -17% return
>on your investments last year.
>This is much better than
>losing 20% or 30%.
>2Lumpy: Terrific! I'm satisfied. If my
>house had burned down I
>would have lost it all.
>I'm eternally grateful.
>
>Barber: Uh, sir, the good news
>is that the left side
>looks great. The bad news
>is that I accidentally shaved
>a swastika in the right
>side.
>2Lumpy: Oooh, that left side sure
>looks good though. Here's an
>extra $5.
>
>Car Wash guy: I regret to
>inform you that our machine
>broke and put a huge
>dent in the front fender
>of your new truck.
>2Lumpy: It's clean though, right? That's
>all I wanted anyway. Do
>you take credit cards?
>
>Day care: We don't know where
>your grandson is. He ran
>away two hours ago. Your
>other two grandkids are here
>safe with us.
>2Lumpy: 2 out of 3 ain't
>bad. Are they ready to
>be picked up?
>
>
>
>Vi Et Armis Invictus Maneo
NAILED IT!

Justin
 
Nah, I don't think so. The wheel will keep turning and those that make a difference will keep working to make a difference. Those that continue to whine will find something else to whine about. It's the nature of people...they do what they do.
 
I agree with Robiland. This needs bigger exposure. How bout KSL Outdoors?
It was spot on but I wish it would have gone into the bid process a little more (RFP VS the state procurement code) and the contradictions between the two. Other than that, it was spot on.

I hope this message gets spread far and wide.

Hawkeye....I actually almost spit out my drink while reading the article which were parts that you quoted.

I hope this is just the beginning of a lot of changes that need to take place.

I'm sharing this article with everyone on social media. We all should be spreading this article.
It's a start.




Theodore Roosevelt's guidance concerning
conservation...
"The movement for the conservation of wildlife,
and the conservation of all our natural resources,
are essentially democratic in spirit,purpose and
method."

"We do not intend that our natural resources shall
be exploited by the few against the interests of the
majority. Our aim is to preserve our natural
resources for the public as a whole, for the
average man and the average woman who make
up the body of the American people."

"It is in our power...to preserve game..and to give
reasonable opportunities for the exercise of the
skill of the hunter,whether he is or is not a man of
means."
 
>Nah, I don't think so.
>The wheel will keep turning
>and those that make a
>difference will keep working to
>make a difference. Those that
>continue to whine will find
>something else to whine about.
> It's the nature of
>people...they do what they do.
>


Like I commented to your Daddy---BS to you too!!!
 
Mostly a slam piece with little room for independent thought or debate. Like most articles written by the press these days it appeals to the emotional mindless minority. Its there to get you fired up and validate many peoples childish emotions.
 
A slam piece? Did we read the same article?

I thought that the author was careful not to attack any of the parties. It looks to me like he met with the DWR, SFW, MDF and RMEF and then presented their respective positions and some of the key facts without taking sides or expressing his own personal opinion. If the author wanted to slam the DWR, SFW and MDF he certainly could have.

-Hawkeye-
 
It's a start! Now someone with investigating skills can be made aware that there is a story here to be told and can dig in to really get to the meat and bones of the subject.

SFW now has the tags, and will have for 5 maybe 10 years. That part is done. To me, the major question is did they go about the process of getting these tags in the best interest of wildlife and did they get them fairly.

I personally don't think so. The quickly made up RFP process, the State purchasing dept's questions that favored a incumbent bidder, the conflict of interest obviously present on the WLB. All this smacks of corruption and a loss to wildlife.

I do hope somebody sinks their teeth into this...

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
I can't decide if tristate is a brilliant, masterful troll dropping incoherent pseudo-philosophical word bombs designed to make us all choke oatmeal all over our keyboards

or

if he really does believe what he's writing.

Tri, you either have my utmost respect or my heartfelt pity. I'm still not sure which.

Vi Et Armis Invictus Maneo
 
Yes Hawkeye, we read the same article. Two thirds of it is attacking an issue which was resolved a couple of years ago. So why is it news? Then they throw in several attack quotes like this one.

"Now that the audits are required, why are some in sporting public still upset? Mostly, they say it was too little too late."


But they never answer the question "What is MORE?"

So are you ready to answer that question Hawkeye if "Too little is to late"? The people screamed for more transparency and they got it. When they get it they say it is "Too Little"??????? So what is MORE? What else do you want Hawkeye? What else does this reporter want?

I know what the answers to these questions are I just want to see if you have the balls to say what your and many others true intent here is. I told you years ago when yall screamed for "transparency" that yall weren't being honest with your motives and the fact that you got transparency and are still attacking PROVES IT.

Yall think I am on SFW side and I'm not. I just can't be on the side of a group of whiners who can't be honest about their motives. That's what you have never understood about me.
 
Tri

So asking questions about where $8.6 million dollars went is whining?

Asking to show what you are doing with a public asset is Whining?

When they say they did an audit that shows absolutely nothing of what people are asking, and we question that, THAT is whining?

SMH!
 
Let's make this simple for the troll:

2007-2012 - 0% transparency - 0 out of $5,436,655 accounted for.

2013-2015 - 30% transparency - $1,147,678.84 out of $3,161740 accounted for.

2007-2015 - $1,147,678.84 out of $8,598,395 accounted for.

What do we want? We want to know what these groups did with the millions of dollars generated from our public tags in the name of conservation. We want to the groups and DWR to treat the money raised from these public Expo Tags they same way they treat the money raised from Conservation Permits they auction off every year -- (1) kept in a separate account; (2) earmarked for approved projects; and (3) audited annually by the DWR. And frankly, the DWR, SFW, MDF and anyone else that's paying attention already knows what we want because we went to the trouble of drafting a proposed rule amendment to fix this problem back in 2012 but it was rejected by the DWR, the Wildlife Board and the groups.

Is that clear enough for you?

-Hawkeye-
 
To quote one of my favorite movies, "A Few Good Men".

"crystal" clear.

But for some, its not Crystal clear, because they have been drinking the murky cool aid way to long.
 
Hawkeye,

THE MONEY IS GOOOOOOOOONE. You ain't getting it back. Sorry to be the guy that has to jerk your bandaid off but that's the truth. SO WHAT DO YOU WANT? Knowing whether the money got spent on deer or hookers ain't going to change a thing. SFW offers up the same crappy accounting that your hero RMEF does now. Just as clear for you to see so I don't understand what you want more for accountability. WHat do you expect to change for the future because that's what deer need, not whiny Sherlocks thinking they are going to save a deer by tracking down old lost money. Hawkeye I don't think you are stupid but I don't think you are being honest about your motives. More deer = more hunting opportunity. Arguing about this money will solve none of your problems if you are actually a sportsman.

Is that clear enough for you?
 
>Hawkeye,
>
>THE MONEY IS GOOOOOOOOONE. You
>ain't getting it back.
>Sorry to be the guy
>that has to jerk your
>bandaid off but that's the
>truth. SO WHAT DO YOU
>WANT? Knowing whether the
>money got spent on deer
>or hookers ain't going to
>change a thing. SFW
>offers up the same crappy
>accounting that your hero RMEF
>does now. Just as
>clear for you to see
>so I don't understand what
>you want more for accountability.
> WHat do you expect
>to change for the future
>because that's what deer need,
>not whiny Sherlocks thinking they
>are going to save a
>deer by tracking down old
>lost money. Hawkeye I
>don't think you are stupid
>but I don't think you
>are being honest about your
>motives. More deer =
>more hunting opportunity. Arguing
>about this money will solve
>none of your problems if
>you are actually a sportsman.
>
>
>Is that clear enough for you?
>

Quite drinking all of that $fw koolaid. It is really starting to make you dillusional. This article is just the tip of the ice berg. Time to grab some popcorn and enjoy the show
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-12-16 AT 02:11PM (MST)[p]>Hawkeye,
>
>THE MONEY IS GOOOOOOOOONE. You
>ain't getting it back.
>Sorry to be the guy
>that has to jerk your
>bandaid off but that's the
>truth. SO WHAT DO YOU
>WANT? Knowing whether the
>money got spent on deer
>or hookers ain't going to
>change a thing. SFW
>offers up the same crappy
>accounting that your hero RMEF
>does now. Just as
>clear for you to see
>so I don't understand what
>you want more for accountability.
> WHat do you expect
>to change for the future
>because that's what deer need,
>not whiny Sherlocks thinking they
>are going to save a
>deer by tracking down old
>lost money. Hawkeye I
>don't think you are stupid
>but I don't think you
>are being honest about your
>motives. More deer =
>more hunting opportunity. Arguing
>about this money will solve
>none of your problems if
>you are actually a sportsman.
>
>
>Is that clear enough for you?
>


Clear enough to know you're smoking something and sniffing too much glue in the shop!
 
Tricycle said: "THE MONEY IS GOOOOOOOOONE. You ain't getting it back."

Brilliant. Tell us something we don't know. We all know that millions of dollars that was supposedly generated "for wildlife conservation activities" is long gone and unaccounted for. You are a master of the obvious.

The question is can we fix this problem moving forward? SFW, MDF and the DWR could fix this problem today if they wanted to. But they won't. Therefore, many sportsmen are asking the state and/or the legislature to conduct an audit of the Expo Tag program from the beginning. If that happens, the state would not simply be looking to remedy the problem moving forward. They would also be looking at how the millions of dollars that were raised by the groups were spent. For the first time in 9 years, there could be a real audit. Not the type of "audits" that you, Deloss and the DWR refer to that don't even look at how the money is spent. This would be a real audit.

If you cannot see the difference between the level of accountability and transparency that RMEF was offering and what SFW/MDF has provided over the past 9 years than please re-enroll in the Texas Public School Systems. Perhaps the changes with common core will fix whatever you missed the first go round. Good luck!

-Hawkeye-
 
So instead of being honest about your motives and actually dealing with your problems just attack the one guy that knows what your up to. How old are you?
 
SO you agree the money is gone. Now what do you want?


I have seen what RMEF calls transparency it ain't any better. Quit fooling yourself your not fooling me. I don't need a public education to tell that.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-12-16 AT 02:51PM (MST)[p]Tri,

So, if the IRS decides to audit Tri State Taxidermy's 2013 Federal Income taxes, are you gonna tell them whiners, "Sorry, but that money is GOOOOONE and you ain't gonna get it back so why are you auditing it and what is it you REALLY want"? And do you think you should be allowed to continue filing the same way?
 
>SO you agree the money is
>gone. Now what do
>you want?
>
>
>I have seen what RMEF calls
>transparency it ain't any better.
> Quit fooling yourself your
>not fooling me. I
>don't need a public education
>to tell that.

Wait, let me get this right.

Tristate agrees that the money is long goooooooone and there's nothing we can do about it.
Tristate says SFW and others have spent all the money.
Tristate says we'll never disclose our "real" motives for having a problem with this.
Tristate says that arguing the problem won't fix it so we should shut up.
Hawkeye and others try to work on "fixing" the problem going forward by asking that more of the $ be spent on conservation and Tristate says it's pointless because the money that is unaccounted for and has been spent already.

Brilliant.
This guy makes Len Kachinsky's logic seem reasonable.

Vi Et Armis Invictus Maneo
 
"Tristate says we'll never disclose our "real" motives for having a problem with this."

Dryflyelk,

I did not say this.


elkfromabove,

you are not asking the IRS to take money from them. This is not a tax issue. Whether you like it or no it is an issue of contract and you don't even know what the terms of the contract are. The IRS doesn't collect money just because the people don't like an organization. SO the money is gone. WHAT DO YOU WANT?
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-12-16 AT 04:20PM (MST)[p]Tristate,
Hawkeye easily explained what he and others want going forward. I don't know what to tell you if it doesn't make sense to you.
Your previous posts sound like your making assumptions that Hawkeye wants something different than what he stated.
Are you implying that there is other reasons to Hawkeyes efforts?




Theodore Roosevelt's guidance concerning
conservation...
"The movement for the conservation of wildlife,
and the conservation of all our natural resources,
are essentially democratic in spirit,purpose and
method."

"We do not intend that our natural resources shall
be exploited by the few against the interests of the
majority. Our aim is to preserve our natural
resources for the public as a whole, for the
average man and the average woman who make
up the body of the American people."

"It is in our power...to preserve game..and to give
reasonable opportunities for the exercise of the
skill of the hunter,whether he is or is not a man of
means."
 
If after reading all these posts you still don't understand what we want then you should start wearing a mask while working with taxidermy glue. Those fumes will work havoc on your brain. Now go mount a Havelina and leave this discussion for the grown-ups.

By the way, those groups will make an additional million plus dollars this weekend off our public tags. That money is not gone YET.

-Hawkeye-
 
If I brought you a animal to be mounted and you told me you would do the job. and I returned and you had done a great job on 30% of my animal, but could not tell me what happened to the other 70%, would I, or should I be happy with your service, and continue to use your service? Or would I be better off to take my animal, to a competitor that would give me a 100% completed beautiful mount?

The money that is gone, we would love to have back, or at least know where it went, as this money was raised from a public asset. But we know that will never happen. But with a better offer to return 100% of future money to be spent as it was intended, on habitat conservation. That is what we want. We do not want the public resource to fund, unknown activities and things, that the public that supplied that money, or lost out on the opportunity to have those tags in the public draw has no benefit.

I do not care what group has the permits, but the state of Utah deserves to receive the most they can get for the investment of the public assets.

and it is a no brainer which group gave the best proposal, but was not awarded the contract.

30 yrs of a true national convention vs 10 years of a regional convention.

Attendance at least double at the RMEF convention vs the expo.

More out of state visitors, to fill hotel rooms, and eat at restaurants. (look at the expo odds for the non resident only permits, around 1,000 for each. Most of those non residents are driving in from boarder towns, attending the expo, applying for the permits and driving home).

100% of permit application fees plus 50% of net proceeds of the whole show returned to DWR for projects, vs 30% of permit application fees.

So what do we want? EASY The best return on our investment.

With that much more money put to habitat conservation, we all win, better habitat equals more animals, more animals equals more opportunity, more opportunity equals more hunters enjoying what we love.
 
LOOK FORWARD TRIS!!! I thought the article was too nice. When someone says they don't know where the $ went, it should be follow up with another question about the FUTURE!
 
Not to change the subject away from Utah, but Idaho legislators have introduced a bill SB1236 to begin auctioning tags there as well. From the sounds of it, it would be similar to Utahs set up.




Theodore Roosevelt's guidance concerning
conservation...
"The movement for the conservation of wildlife,
and the conservation of all our natural resources,
are essentially democratic in spirit,purpose and
method."

"We do not intend that our natural resources shall
be exploited by the few against the interests of the
majority. Our aim is to preserve our natural
resources for the public as a whole, for the
average man and the average woman who make
up the body of the American people."

"It is in our power...to preserve game..and to give
reasonable opportunities for the exercise of the
skill of the hunter,whether he is or is not a man of
means."
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-12-16 AT 05:25PM (MST)[p]>"Tristate says we'll never disclose our
>"real" motives for having a
>problem with this."
>
>Dryflyelk,
>
>I did not say this.
>
>
>elkfromabove,
>
>you are not asking the IRS
>to take money from them.
> This is not a
>tax issue. Whether you like
>it or no it is
>an issue of contract and
>you don't even know what
>the terms of the contract
>are. The IRS doesn't
>collect money just because the
>people don't like an organization.
> SO the money is
>gone. WHAT DO YOU
>WANT?

I want:

1) The DWR, DNR, the Wildlife Board, the Governor, SFW, MDF, and UFNAWS (or anyone else who gets the contract) to do what is best for Utah's Wildlife, Utah's Sportsmen/women, Utah's citizens and Utah's economy in that order.

2) More public input in the awarding of the contract.

3) A full accounting, through a financial audit available to the public, of the use of any funds generated by the marketing of public hunting permits.

4) And since the Expo Partners based their winning proposal so much on the financing of their past habitat projects, I also want to see what was spent on what project and how much of it actually came from the Expo Permit Program in the last 10 years. We may not get it back, but we should know where it went so we'll know better how it should be spent in the future.

I don't know if you do your own tanning, but I had a local taxidermist do my P&Y pronghorn and it took over a year to get it done because the contracted tanner "cooked" a batch of hides because of a malfunctioning thermostat or timer or mixture. (I never did get the full story.) In any case, I was promised another cape, but I ended up having to use my daughter's pronghorn cape she got the following year and I was never reimbursed for the original cape 'cause I got tired of asking. I'm sure he thought I was a whiner! Needless to say, I never went back to that guy and never recommended him to anyone else, but he's still in business.

It's true that some of us "whiners" on this issue will eventually quit, but some of us will not until this is resolved. I guess you'll have to get used to it.
 
>I think most sportsmen are perfectly
>fine with the process and
>the procedures that have been
>and are presently being followed.

I think most sportsmen are perfectly ignorant to the process and procedures.

Just within my family for example, there are 7 of us (not including me) who actively apply each year in UT as residents. When I've brought up the expo, none have any idea regarding the process and procedures regarding the expo. That's not to say that they don't enjoy the expo when/if they go. Those two things are not the same.

Maybe seven is a small sample size, but I bet the correlation to the population is similar.

I don't claim to know the ins and outs regarding the process and procedures of the expo, but it doesn't take much to figure that something seems fishy.

How many of those sportsmen would still get that warm and fuzzy feeling attending the expo if they were better educated regarding the process and procedures?

Sportsmen ignorance is bliss for those who have claim to a piece of the pie and they'll continue to redirect the answers to the questions we seek to keep it.
 
I personally have not seen much in the way of conservation aside from the trophy units such as the Paunsaugunt and the Henry Mountains. Those units see real projects because they are the money makers. So many other units that are not as "important" need work and don't get it because of the trophy hunting culture that's gone viral in Utah. I would rather see those tags go to Utah residents in the draw than pimped out support lobbyist groups. Or see some legitimate transparency from SFW and the DWR for where those dollars are going.
 
Hawkeye, Seems as if we are spinning a lot of wheels. Wouldn't time be better served in asking an audience with the governor?
 
Lumpy keep drinking the kool aid. Guess who is not attending the expo? Me thats right I will not support them, and I have yet to hear back about their highly redacted proposal. They told me to read it and make a decision if I felt it was fair. How can I make that decision if the thing has 30 pages fully redacted? What did they repeat everyones contact information 20 times over per page is that why it is redacted like that Lump?

?If men were angels, no government would be
necessary.? John Adams
 
As a CPA (certified public accountant - not certified public a$$hole as some believe) here is what a full audit could cause.

First, a complete audit matrix of expenditures based on revenue/donations received would produce plenty of information regarding WHERE the funds went. If SFW files as a 501(c)(3), then based off the audit, they could lose that status. If that status is lost, and the negligence of board members/finance personnel is deemed to a certain degree of gross negligence - federal prison time, repayment of money's, loss of current contractual agreements, embarrassment, etc - basically a small Enron debacle.

Secondly, the audit could also show gifts/money given of SFW employees (volunteers) and where they went. It could show contractual agreements with vendors who were hired to do "conservation restoration projects" and how the final project was completed. The list goes on and on and on.

I know that we, as a public, will never get the unaccounted money back - but that IS NOT the issue. The issue is to stop the corrupt practices of organizations that use the public resources to pad their own pockets.

From a personal standpoint of an audit, I would love to see the distribution of the 200 tags yearly awarded to those with an affiliation to SFW. If the audit matrix shows that out of those 200 tags, x% of the "randomly" drawn tags goes to SFW members, family, etc. that could pour gas on an already lit fire for SFW. Plus, I would know if I needed to join SFW or not so that I could draw an expo tag! :)
 
You mean the governor who is going to be speaking for BIg Game Forever this weekend at the expo?

Good luck with that.
 
Well, there ya have it.
2lumpy feels good, and the president thinks it is spent on conservation. Good enough. Hahahaha
This is all going to come to a head soon. Well, I guess it has come to a head, it just needs popped.
 
I rarely respond to anything in monstermuley, however one thing comes to mind on this thread. WHY don't all you people that have all the heartburn about a group that is trying to preserve wildlife and the future of hunting start your own preservation program? get off your ass and start it if your going to ##### about the tactics and actions of those who are off there ass and trying! easy as hell to sit behind your keyboard and post negative ##### about those trying... post up your plans on how you are going to start a new conservation program that will solve all hunting (world hunger).. issues!

I dont agree with SFW, RMEF, MDF etc. etc. to the "T" on everything they do, but guess what.... they are out trying and not sitting behind there computer bitching about those that are... kinda funny.... get off your ass and do something.. start your own group if you have all the "right" answers.

judas!!!!!!
 
I don't like bickering, but these type of reponses drive me nuts. I think a lot of people are missing the point on why this is an issue.

I would argue that a lot of these people have been actively involved in trying to better the situation.

Read a little of what Hawkeye contributed to.

What chaps the hide is that percentage wise, so little is given back towards conservation from these public tags (30%).

And on top of that a proposal to give 100% back to conservation from these public tags was turned down at the twelve o'clock.

Think of how much more conservation could have been done with 70% more money. And no added taxes to the public for it.

At this point what more can you do than to try and spread the word concerning the matter? Honestly, so few are aware of it.

That's my two cents.



>I rarely respond to anything in
>monstermuley, however one thing comes
>to mind on this thread.
>WHY don't all you people
>that have all the heartburn
>about a group that is
>trying to preserve wildlife and
>the future of hunting start
>your own preservation program? get
>off your ass and start
>it if your going to
>##### about the tactics and
>actions of those who are
>off there ass and trying!
> easy as hell to
>sit behind your keyboard and
>post negative ##### about those
>trying... post up your plans
>on how you are going
>to start a new conservation
>program that will solve all
>hunting (world hunger).. issues!
>
>I dont agree with SFW, RMEF,
>MDF etc. etc. to the
>"T" on everything they do,
>but guess what.... they are
>out trying and not sitting
>behind there computer bitching about
>those that are... kinda funny....
>get off your ass and
>do something.. start your own
>group if you have all
>the "right" answers.
>
>judas!!!!!!
 
Grey'sriver- Great post.

That's always been my question when I see these threads.

If you don't like SFW- THEN DON'T FREAKIN' GIVE THEM YOUR MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you believe they are doing something corrupt and illegal-PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sure seems like we go through this same CRAP every year. My contention is if no one has found anything concrete with all the allegations of corruption...THERE MUST NOT BE ANY.

Not a member of either organization.

Can we just talk about hunting??????????????????????
 
The ultimate gauge on how a charity is doing is its volunteers. SFW has 100's of volunteers at the expo & 1000's more that organize the state banquets. To think that these people would volunteer countless hrs to a organization whose leadership is pocketing all the money is absurd. Like nontypical said if they are prove it or Shut the F(*& up.
I travel CO, UT, AZ, WY, & parts of NV performing my job and from my observation there is more habitat projects going on in Utah than the rest of the western states combined. Some of the money is getting on the ground.
And finally Founder can you please start a anti SFW/MDF forum so the rest of us can read posts about hunting. Every time one of these posts pops up we can just move it to the appropriate forum.
For the record not a member or volunteer for either group just sick about hearing about it.
 
>The ultimate gauge on how a
>charity is doing is its
>volunteers. SFW has 100's of
>volunteers at the expo &
>1000's more that organize the
>state banquets. To think
>that these people would volunteer
>countless hrs to a organization
>whose leadership is pocketing all
>the money is absurd.
>Like nontypical said if they
>are prove it or Shut
>the F(*& up.
>I travel CO, UT, AZ, WY,
>& parts of NV performing
>my job and from my
>observation there is more habitat
>projects going on in Utah
>than the rest of the
>western states combined. Some of
>the money is getting on
>the ground.
>And finally Founder can you please
>start a anti SFW/MDF forum
>so the rest of us
>can read posts about hunting.
> Every time one of
>these posts pops up we
>can just move it to
>the appropriate forum.
>For the record not a member
>or volunteer for either group
>just sick about hearing about
>it.

You're Already on the Anti-SFW Forum!:D





[font color="blue"]"This is the USA where people get Paid to Watch
People that are
Watching You!"[/font]
 
This is not rocket science:

You guys have public resources being sold and the entity receiving the money is not subject to annual, transparent audits. That, my friends, is crazy. Absolutely nuts.

Again, these resources belong to all of you, and much of that money is going into the pockets of Lord Knows Who for Lord Knows What.

Wow.
 
>I rarely respond to anything in
>monstermuley, however one thing comes
>to mind on this thread.
>WHY don't all you people
>that have all the heartburn
>about a group that is
>trying to preserve wildlife and
>the future of hunting start
>your own preservation program? get
>off your ass and start
>it if your going to
>##### about the tactics and
>actions of those who are
>off there ass and trying!
> easy as hell to
>sit behind your keyboard and
>post negative ##### about those
>trying... post up your plans
>on how you are going
>to start a new conservation


>program that will solve all
>hunting (world hunger).. issues!
>
>I dont agree with SFW, RMEF,
>MDF etc. etc. to the
>"T" on everything they do,
>but guess what.... they are
>out trying and not sitting
>behind there computer bitching about
>those that are... kinda funny....
>get off your ass and
>do something.. start your own
>group if you have all
>the "right" answers.
>
>judas!!!!!!
X10
 
Hawkeyes just mad he got his ass handed to him by SFW the state and dwr. All he wants is revenge. Hawkeye give it up your making yourself look like an idiot. But most attorneys are. Don't like to loose do ya! You want to see where the money is? Get off your asses and go do some conservation projects and you will see where the money goes. Key off the keyboad and onto a shovel. Tristate is right your a whiny sore looser. The Transparency is there and you know it! RMEF is crooked as all of them. Expo was awesome, set several records, place was packed with amazing hunters and industry leaders. 200 Tags were full of amazing people so please go away your a fool who has no business in this industry of bad asses!
 
To those tired of SFW being bashed on:

Go back and read all the FACTS and other pertinent information posted by Hawkeye on this thread and others.

If that does not shed some light for you on why SFW is continually getting railed on, then I am not sure what to say!
 
Does anyone here even remember the days SFW was a sponsor of this site and actually had their own forum? That dumpster fire was eventually disposed of and it had to go somewhere! This is as good a location as any. How can anyone expect to sweep 10 years of scandals and corruption under a rug! Haha.

Tag thefts, Jerry Weiers, Corey Rossi, RFP scandal, promised transparency, wildlife board recuses. The fuel is so endless for this dumpster, Waste Management should be a MM sponsor.

**********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club
 
They won't quit because the one thing they cry about they can't have. They don't care about the money or audits or transparency. They want the tags back in the general draw. They are welfare recipients and like all welfare recipients, when the free or underpriced goods start to run out, they go ballistic. None of them like most people stuck in a socialized system have the fortitude or the mental capabilities to adapt and make the system work for them. They simply know how to whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine and whine.

I couldn't give a flying flip about all the eloquent writing Hawkeye has done. It was informational three years ago. Now its just the repetitive echo of a whiner who won't get off his a$$ and actually make a difference. He doesn't even have the balls to admit his real motives anymore. And the only people backing him are a bunch of trash talking children who are too scared to grow up and face the future.


Just like RMEF won't come to SLC and show all these people "how its really done" with or without tags to sell.
 
>They won't quit because the one
>thing they cry about they
>can't have. They don't
>care about the money or
>audits or transparency. They
>want the tags back in
>the general draw. They
>are welfare recipients and like
>all welfare recipients, when the
>free or underpriced goods start
>to run out, they go
>ballistic. None of them
>like most people stuck in
>a socialized system have the
>fortitude or the mental capabilities
>to adapt and make the
>system work for them.
>They simply know how to
>whine and whine and whine
>and whine and whine and
>whine and whine and whine
>and whine and whine and
>whine and whine and whine
>and whine and whine and
>whine and whine and whine
>and whine and whine and
>whine and whine and whine
>and whine.
>
>I couldn't give a flying flip
>about all the eloquent writing
>Hawkeye has done. It
>was informational three years ago.
> Now its just the
>repetitive echo of a whiner
>who won't get off his
>a$$ and actually make a
>difference. He doesn't even have
>the balls to admit his
>real motives anymore. And
>the only people backing him
>are a bunch of trash
>talking children who are too
>scared to grow up and
>face the future.
>
>
>Just like RMEF won't come to
>SLC and show all these
>people "how its really done"
>with or without tags to
>sell.




Justin
 
>They won't quit because the one
>thing they cry about they
>can't have. They don't
>care about the money or
>audits or transparency. They
>want the tags back in
>the general draw. They
>are welfare recipients and like
>all welfare recipients, when the
>free or underpriced goods start
>to run out, they go
>ballistic. None of them
>like most people stuck in
>a socialized system have the
>fortitude or the mental capabilities
>to adapt and make the
>system work for them.
>They simply know how to
>whine and whine and whine
>and whine and whine and
>whine and whine and whine
>and whine and whine and
>whine and whine and whine
>and whine and whine and
>whine and whine and whine
>and whine and whine and
>whine and whine and whine
>and whine.
>
>I couldn't give a flying flip
>about all the eloquent writing
>Hawkeye has done. It
>was informational three years ago.
> Now its just the
>repetitive echo of a whiner
>who won't get off his
>a$$ and actually make a
>difference. He doesn't even have
>the balls to admit his
>real motives anymore. And
>the only people backing him
>are a bunch of trash
>talking children who are too
>scared to grow up and
>face the future.
>
>
>Just like RMEF won't come to
>SLC and show all these
>people "how its really done"
>with or without tags to
>sell.

Once again he refuses to address the issues and resorts to name calling, mind reading, generic insinuations and insults? Could it be because he can't defend his side of the discussion with facts and reason? It appears he's getting desperate.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-16 AT 11:55AM (MST)[p]He is just trying to muddy up the facts

Fact they are public tags that the public is sick of being used for $fw's personal well being of their leaders

Fact $fw has done next to nothing conservation wise with all of that money when you look at the totals

Fact $fw has came up with excuse after excuse as to why they are so secretive when it has come to explaining where all of that money has gone over the years

Fact their run is coming to an end so you see their puppets on here like the posts above trying to dilute the truth.

It is not rocket science it is cut clear and dry CORRUPTION.that most likely will have legal ramifications one day.
 
Hey Tristate, still waiting to hear how you feel about my response to you on #38 of this thread. and the facts of how we would all benefit from the money that would be used on habitat conservation.

If you ran your taxidermy business, in the same manner that Utah DWR awards contracts, how long would you be in business?

Not trying to argue, just curious how you see the issue, all I see is you calling the ones that see a better option whiners. I answered your question as to what we want, but you avoided my question, to only come back and say we are whiners.

Any of you are welcome to explain, how having more money for conservation, is not a win for all of us who enjoy the outdoors, seeing animals, and being able to pursue them. More money = more habitat, More habitat = more animals, more animals = more opportunity.

All conservation money is required to be spent on approved DWR habitat projects. So don't tell me that any group would do better with the money, it would be spent on the same projects, and more money would equal more completed projects.

So how do we benefit from accepting a lesser bid?


>They won't quit because the one
>thing they cry about they
>can't have. They don't
>care about the money or
>audits or transparency. They
>want the tags back in
>the general draw. They
>are welfare recipients and like
>all welfare recipients, when the
>free or underpriced goods start
>to run out, they go
>ballistic. None of them
>like most people stuck in
>a socialized system have the
>fortitude or the mental capabilities
>to adapt and make the
>system work for them.
>They simply know how to
>whine and whine and whine
>and whine and whine and
>whine and whine and whine
>and whine and whine and
>whine and whine and whine
>and whine and whine and
>whine and whine and whine
>and whine and whine and
>whine and whine and whine
>and whine.
>
>I couldn't give a flying flip
>about all the eloquent writing
>Hawkeye has done. It
>was informational three years ago.
> Now its just the
>repetitive echo of a whiner
>who won't get off his
>a$$ and actually make a
>difference. He doesn't even have
>the balls to admit his
>real motives anymore. And
>the only people backing him
>are a bunch of trash
>talking children who are too
>scared to grow up and
>face the future.
>
>
>Just like RMEF won't come to
>SLC and show all these
>people "how its really done"
>with or without tags to
>sell.
 
elklvr,

I didn't take any time to respond to that because it was quite possibly the worst correlation between two different business models I have ever seen. There is absolutely no connection between my business and the business which is going on there plus the hypothetical scenarios you grabbed at are impossible to logically connect to each other.

As for your question at the end of this post,

"So how do we benefit from accepting a lesser bid?"

YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE THAT IT WAS A LESSER BID! Nobody does. The state can't tell you with certainty that they picked the highest bid and you can't guarantee that they picked worse. There was a lot more to that bid than %30 or %100 on raffle tags. They picked what they thought would be best for the state and you have to live with it. I find it humorous that on another thread on these forums your supporters are complaining about how SFW sells the tags for more money than RMEF does. That means that THEY think SFW makes more money for the state than RMEF can, AND THEY ARE COMPLAINING!
 
Like I said not trying to argue, just looking for answers. but here is the "justification statement". As I put in # 38, everyone of the reasoning's could have been answered, with some research but lets look at # 5 Application fee revenue 150 possible points

c. Discussion:
Both organizations would provide a significant benefit to Utah wildlife and sportsmen
through expo permit revenue. The Offeror B proposal will provide more funding directly
to the state in comparison to the SFW proposal. As a result, additional points were
awarded to Offeror B.
Of a possible 150 points in this category, SFW scored a 97.5 and Offeror B scored a
142.5. In the opinion of the State evaluation committee, Offeror B provides the best
value to the State in this category.

There you have it their own words. Offeror B would provide more funding directly to the state.

Also how is this score anything other than 150 Points to Offeror B (100% of the points for the offer to return 100% of the funds) to 45 points (30% of the funds returned)? That one score would tip the total bid to Offeror B

Give me a break in all of the other excuses. 30 year history tells us that RMEF knows how to put on a national convention, and their attendance dwarfs the expo attendance, which not only benefit our local economy, but have more applicants for the permits, generating more money (speculation but history shows it to be true). 4 star charity navigator rating shows they will put the money towards habitat, not who know what. Securing a location? really? being able to pull off the draw?

Like I said before, I do not care what group has the permits, but facts are facts, and Utah got the short end of the bid process.

http://wildlife.utah.gov/pdf/2015-12-18_justification_statement.pdf

And as far as getting better deal at this banquet or that banquet, 90% of the money is going back to the state for the same habitat projects. It depends on what tag the consumer wants, and where that tag is being offered, and how much competition there is for that tag. The same buyers are going to find that tag wherever it is. There is very little competition for like tags, as there are not that many tags where there are multiples of the same tag, and for every tag that goes for a bargain at ABC banquet there is an example of a bargain tag at XYZ banquet.

This is my last post as I told you I do not want to argue, but after looking into the facts, I see Utah got a lesser option, and we all lose. As there will not be more habitat enhanced, as there could have been, if only they would have accepted the offer that "would provide more funding directly to the state for habitat projects" than the SFW offer.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-16 AT 01:16PM (MST)[p]Are you guys wallowing with the pig having fun? Now the troll is saying we don't know what the two bids were when they're right out for the public to read, LOL!
 
Another chitty day in the big city huh Pig? Back to your favorite hobby, arguing on the internet with western folk about stuff you know nothing about. What a miserable pathetic life you must live.
I like how you call everyone welfare recipients who puts in to draw tags. Spoken like a true butthurt jealous TexASSen.
Seriously Pig, you want to talk welfare? Is there any other wildlife origination that cashes more welfare checks then $FW?
 
If RMEF can do it better then lets see them move their convention to SLC and do it better WHITHOUT THE TAGS! Put their money where your mouth is.

There is a lot more to that bid than the tiny little part you picked and you know it. I have read all of it and I imagine you have too.

I like how you say their attendance dwarfs SFW attendance and the other guys on your side say SFW dwarfs RMEF on the prices these auction items sell for. THATS GREAT BUSINESS! When you make more money from fewer people (Less overhead) you are running more efficiently! Who has the most attendees isn't always the best proposition.

Quit whining and get out there and do some good. Go make better habitat yourself. Get RMEF to open a chapter where you are at be the president of it and make it happen the way YOU WANT IT TO HAPPEN. Or is it just easier to talk trash on the internet and never amount to anything?
 
There are lots of good folks who volunteer their time for SFW and MDF, especially at the grass roots level. However, that does not excuse the lack of transparency with our public assets. To those folks, I say help us push for change from the inside.

My motives and concerns have been the same since the first time I met with the group's 5+ years ago. If a private group is going to take 200 public tags out of the draw to raise "revenues for wildlife conservation activities," then they better be willing to account to the public for how the funds are spent -- even if the DWR is too complicit or incompetent to require accountability.

Shame on the DWR and the groups for dragging their feet for 9 years and shame all of us for allowing this to continue this long. Many of us are working to fix this problem, and I am confident that it will eventually get resolved. For those of you who are tired of hearing about this issue, step up and help us fix it. For those of you that can't see the problem, I am sorry but we are not going away.

-Hawkeye-
 
Someone tried with a half-heart but didn't really want to play in our sandbox and went back from whence they came.... stating that they couldn't make an expo work here.

Someone else built a really cool toy (expo) in our sandbox and now someone (dudes who left because they didn't think Utah could host an event up to their "standards") wants it and is willing to make all sorts of play to get their hands on it.

Time will tell if they really want to play in our sandbox or if they simply want to steal the other kid"s toys!

It's really that simple and doesn't require hundreds of nonsensical posts.


Note: some of you will understand and some will not. If you require an explanation, then you're not vested or vetted enough and have no equity or value of opinion.

Zeke
 
>Someone tried with a half-heart but
>didn't really want to play
>in our sandbox and went
>back from whence they came....
>stating that they couldn't make
>an expo work here.
>
>Someone else built a really cool
>toy (expo) in our sandbox
>and now someone (dudes who
>left because they didn't think
>Utah could host an event
>up to their "standards") wants
>it and is willing to
>make all sorts of play
>to get their hands on
>it.
>
>Time will tell if they really
>want to play in our
>sandbox or if they simply
>want to steal the other
>kid"s toys!
>
>It's really that simple and doesn't
>require hundreds of nonsensical posts.
>
>
>
>Note: some of you will understand
>and some will not. If
>you require an explanation, then
>you're not vested or vetted
>enough and have no equity
>or value of opinion.
>
>Zeke


That sounds more like a post that lumpy or his boy would make, but doesn't surprise me at all that you have now come out of the woodwork Zeke! Your last line especially sucks because people don't have to have been around too awful long to look into things too deeply to know what is going on and see that the wildlife, habitat, and taxpayers of Utah are getting the shaft right up the old wazoo!
 
Hey zeke, remember back after only a couple years of the expo $FW/MDF wanted to leave Salt Lakes sand box and take their really cool toy to Reno's sandbox? Apparently $FW and MDF thought an expo in SLC wouldn't work either. Funny how you kool-aid drinkers have conveniently forgot that.
 
>Like I said not trying to
>argue, just looking for answers.
>but here is the "justification
>statement". As I put in
># 38, everyone of the
>reasoning's could have been answered,
>with some research but lets
>look at # 5 Application
>fee revenue 150 possible
>points
>
>c. Discussion:
>Both organizations would provide a significant
>benefit to Utah wildlife and
>sportsmen
>through expo permit revenue. The Offeror
>B proposal will provide more
>funding directly
>to the state in comparison to
>the SFW proposal. As a
>result, additional points were
>awarded to Offeror B.
>Of a possible 150 points in
>this category, SFW scored a
>97.5 and Offeror B scored
>a
>142.5. In the opinion of the
>State evaluation committee, Offeror B
>provides the best
>value to the State in this
>category.
>
>There you have it their own
>words. Offeror B would
>provide more funding directly to
>the state.
>
>Also how is this score anything
>other than 150 Points to
>Offeror B (100% of the
>points for the offer to
>return 100% of the funds)
>to 45 points (30% of
>the funds returned)? That
>one score would tip the
>total bid to Offeror B
>
>
> Give me a break in
>all of the other excuses.
> 30 year history tells
>us that RMEF knows how
>to put on a national
>convention, and their attendance dwarfs
>the expo attendance, which not
>only benefit our local economy,
>but have more applicants for
>the permits, generating more money
>(speculation but history shows it
>to be true). 4
>star charity navigator rating shows
>they will put the money
>towards habitat, not who know
>what. Securing a location?
>really? being able to
>pull off the draw?
>
>Like I said before, I do
>not care what group has
>the permits, but facts are
>facts, and Utah got the
>short end of the bid
>process.
>
>http://wildlife.utah.gov/pdf/2015-12-18_justification_statement.pdf
>
>And as far as getting better
>deal at this banquet or
>that banquet, 90% of
>the money is going back
>to the state for the
>same habitat projects. It
>depends on what tag the
>consumer wants, and where that
>tag is being offered, and
>how much competition there is
>for that tag. The
>same buyers are going to
>find that tag wherever it
>is. There is very
>little competition for like tags,
>as there are not that
>many tags where there are
>multiples of the same tag,
>and for every tag that
>goes for a bargain at
>ABC banquet there is an
>example of a bargain tag
>at XYZ banquet.
>
>This is my last post as
>I told you I do
>not want to argue, but
>after looking into the facts,
>I see Utah got a
>lesser option, and we all
>lose. As there will
>not be more habitat enhanced,
>as there could have been,
>if only they would have
>accepted the offer that "would
>provide more funding directly to
>the state for habitat projects"
>than the SFW offer.

Let's review that again:
RMEF = 100% of Expo application fees to wildlife.
SFW/MDF/UFNAWS = 30% of Expo application fees to wildlife.

RMEF = 50% of net Expo funds to wildlife.
SFW/MDF/UFNAWS = 0% of net Expo funds to wildlife.

(Something you missed)
RMEF = 100% of auctioned tag income to wildlife. (Done nationwide since 2014, per 2.3.3. of RMEF bid.)
SFW/MDF/UFNAWS = 90% of auctioned tag income to wildlife. (No increase above mandated amount previously done or offered.) (The Antelope Island deer tag alone could have delivered $41,000 more to wildlife under RMEF's auction than under SWF/MDF/UNAWS's auction.)

I really like RMEF's explanation of why they give 100% of auctioned tags back to wildlife. "We believe tags are part of the public trust and, therefore, 100% of revenue generated from these tags should be reinvested in the resource." (Yeah, we know, Tristate, RMEF's on the welfare bus.)
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-16 AT 03:24PM (MST)[p]Funny shotgun that you can't remember. That was Wild Sheep who wanted out.... and did pull out of our little sandbox! Same as all the other posts....almost the truth but not quite.

You guys keep chirping and whining though. It looks good on you.

Topgun,
well... never mind.

Zeke
 
Elkfromabove,

How does %100 go "to wildlife"? Do deer take checks or charge? Can I bribe a doe to make a fawn? What is the average income of an elk?

This is the BS I am talking about. Yall talk in the vague generalities which can be twisted any which way the people please and then think you have some ground shaking "facts". A word that gets loosely thrown around here.

Elkfromabove,

YOU DON'T KNOW SQUAT. RMEF knows it. SFW knows it. Your to blinded by your brainwashed welfare rage to catch on.


These are businesses making business decisions in a competitive market for a finite resource.
 
Shotgun. I remember that. I also remember when SFW said they would not go and the Wild Sheep people said they were the draw to Salt Lake and without them the show could not make it. The tags had to stay in Utah and SFW said they would stay and MDF chose also to stay. That was the particular group of ways of the Wild Sheep Foundation. The Sheep foundation wanted to party and Salt Lake was not the place.
As for Hawkeye, what really is your goal. You know what was offered to you that you turned down. A chance to see exactly where the money went. I believe your answer was something like not your problem. You also said that even though you were aware of all the false talk about SFW you could care less. Something like it's not my problem. Your right it isn't your problem but your motive is much more than knowing where the money goes. When audited by a C P A firm separate from the State where 88 cents of every dollar went on the ground. Hawkeye knows the truth but wants to destroy SFW. It's not he wants the truth, he knows the truth. It's I want to distroy.
 
Yea whatever. Maybe it was the sheep foundation that first pulled out of salt lake but $FW and MDF were more then willing to go to a bigger and better sand box along with them. It was announced in MDF magazine that the WHC expo would be in Reno the following year.
 
Birdman, you are delusional. For someone who has never spoken with me about the issues, you pretend to know my motives. Why don't you just read post #24 above. Or you could pick up the phone and call a few of they SFW board members. They know exactly what I want -- the same thing I've posted here over and over again. If you are still confused, feel free to give me a call. I pm'd you my number. If you are going to take our 200 public tags in the name of "conservation," you better be willing to account for the money.

-Hawkeye-
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-16 AT 05:04PM (MST)[p]You're too polite Hawkeye!!! Haven't you been paying attention to all of the Bird's posts the last few years regarding SFW? He knows everything and nobody else better say he doesn't or he'll come up with another dousy of a post like that last one!
 
Birdman , I remember reading the announcement in MDF magazine that the following years Western Hunting and Conservation Expo will be held in Reno. I sent off an email to the UDWR director at the time, I think it was Kaparowitz. Asking if the 200 tags are going to Reno too. He replied back saying he received several other emails asking the same question and he's looking into it. I never heard back from him again. Next thing I hear is the expo is staying in Salt Lake. I believe what happened was $FW and MDF wanted to follow FNAWS to Reno but we're told the 200 tags would have to stay in Utah.
 
Hawkeye, not delusional at all. Referring to conversation you had with board members. You know exactly what I am talking about. You can say what you want and I know it would not look good if you admit it but what happened happened. You can hide the truth all you want. You could shed a lot of light on the truth but you refuse to. You know exactly what I mean. Now I made a statement and you can try your way out of it but truth is truth. Now I am done on the subject.
 
Where did the idea that RMEF knows how to run a national convention come from. I'm tired of hearing people say how great their convention is. Anyone who has attended one knows it's complete BS.
This is from RMEF s website after their 2014 convention.

"Attendance for the inaugural Hunter Christmas Exposition, presented by Cabela?s, was approximately 28,000 at the Las Vegas Convention Center. That figure broke the previous all-time high of 23,000 for an Elk Camp-related expo set in Albuquerque in 2001. The 2013 expo, also held in Las Vegas, drew approximately 12,000 attendees."
Those numbers don't sound too great to me. I challenge all who attended both the Hunt Expo, and the RMEF convention to come on here and state which of the two events was better attended. I'd like to know their opinion on who's show was more successful. There is a claim that more than 86k attended the RMEF convention in 2015, more than tripling the previous year. I believe 86k people probably attended the NFR in Vegas but not the RMEF show that took place the same days. I have not seen what the Hunt Expo attendance was but I've heard over it was over 45k in 4 days. Talking to the vendors who attended both they say there is no comparison between the two events. The Hunt Expo in SLC wins in both attendance and quality. I did not attend the RMEF show so I would like to hear from those who attended both.
 
I don't know why I allow myself to get sucked into this fiasco but I will state some opinions about Hawkeye. I've seen nothing but pure intentions, albeit on the side of RMEF. He responds the way he does because he has a brain and needs not stoop to the levels of some. (Read that twice, topgun)
There are just so many dudes who have no idea about anything except to follow someone with their nose up someone's "wazoo". Hawkeye better not stop too fast! Haha.
It's so fashionable to bash SFW and MM has become THE premier place to do so. Most others have moved on and long figured out that we don't need the drama and puffing that we find here.
Of course RMEF wants the expo....NOW! But only after SFW scratched and clawed to make it into something awesome.
I'm not a koolaid drinker and I know there's always room for improvement. The way to get improvement is to work together but that concept is beyond most folks.
The expo/full curl was an awesome event and those who chose to punish themselves by staying home really missed out on the fun!
Okay, please go back to talking quietly among yourselves.
Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-16 AT 05:54PM (MST)[p]I don't know why I allow
>myself to get sucked into
>this fiasco but I will
>state some opinions about Hawkeye.
>I've seen nothing but pure
>intentions, albeit on the side
>of RMEF. He responds the
>way he does because he
>has a brain and needs
>not stoop to the levels
>of some. (Read that twice,
>topgun)
>There are just so many dudes
>who have no idea about
>anything except to follow someone
>with their nose up someone's
>"wazoo". Hawkeye better not stop
>too fast! Haha.
> It's so fashionable to bash
>SFW and MM has become
>THE premier place to do
>so. Most others have moved
>on and long figured out
>that we don't need the
>drama and puffing that we
>find here.
>Of course RMEF wants the expo....NOW!
>But only after SFW scratched
>and clawed to make it
>into something awesome.
>I'm not a koolaid drinker and
>I know there's always room
>for improvement. The way to
>get improvement is to work
>together but that concept is
>beyond most folks.
>The expo/full curl was an awesome
>event and those who chose
>to punish themselves by staying
>home really missed out on
>the fun!
>Okay, please go back to talking
>quietly among yourselves.
>Zeke

Yea, I know I'm not PC like Hawkeye is Kyle, but show me anywhere that I've ever stated anything that won't be proved accurate IF the SFW/MDF books are ever opened and audited by an independent, disinterested party! Anybody that has read and kept up with this
SFW/MDF garbage the last few years and won't admit that they lack transparency with the money taken from the public trust is certainly a koolaid drinker. Please show me any attempt of the SFW leadership to cooperate and work together with those who want to clear this up. Hell, the Don even backed out of a debate with Randy because he knew he'd be exposed and taken to the cleaners! That Kyle, is as simple and polite as I can be on this subject! PS: Hawkeye was involved and has been trying to get this BS corrected for years and well before RMEF ever got involved with bidding on the next contract, so don't you dare insinuate that he has an outside interest involving RMEF to have this travesty corrected!
 
OH, don't I dare, Mike? Thanks for the warning. Lol

I was stating an irrefutable fact. Put that on your pipe and smoke it, Mike.

I also stated where I believe hawkeye's motives are pure. Did you miss that too, Mike?

This is the same old crap that everyone gets into here on MM, Michael.

Zeke
 
Other then trying to help out the wolf lovers,and a failed mule deer transplant
what has sfw done with all of this money in the past years conservation wise. And taking friends of friends on guided hunting trips doesn't count. I know they bought a guide service/ personal hunting lodge on Alaska but what else
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-16 AT 06:28PM (MST)[p]>OH, don't I dare, Mike? Thanks
>for the warning. Lol
>
***Wasn't a warning, LOL, just stating FACT!

>I was stating an irrefutable fact.
>Put that on your pipe
>and smoke it, Mike.

***Your irrefutable FACT is also a bunch of BS for exactly the reason I stated in that Hawkeye has been fighting this for years and well before RMEF became involved with that contract bid. To even put RMEF in that sentence is exactly the way other koolaid drinkers have been trying to get away from what is actually trying to be corrected. For the life of me, if I was any of you that are involved with SFW to any extent I'd be knocking on the higher ups doors to get this BS taken care of and move on with life. Nope, all I see is excuses and blaming everyone but the people that need to be blamed for the lack of transparency.
>
>I also stated where I believe
>hawkeye's motives are pure. Did
>you miss that too, Mike?

***Nope, didn't miss it at all and if you believe his intentions are pure why not get involved and get this transparency issue straightened out within your organization?

>This is the same old crap
>that everyone gets into here
>on MM, Michael.
>
***Yep, and this same old crap will be on here until SFW takes care of this mess voluntarily, which I'm sure will never happen based on how long this has been going on! Since that will never happen it appears that even legal recourse may need to be instigated at some date and time, but that's up to the Utah taxpayers to decide and proceed with.
 
Hey Michael,
Why don't you straighten out desert point Brian's post (his post wasn't even half-truth)about what "they" bought and who's money it was?
This is the kind of crap that flows on the WWW.
This ought to be good.
Zeke
 
Topgun,

You are a full of crap loudmouth. You have no more facts or knowledge than anyone else on here. You have NOTHING but wild accusations and conjecture. Just because you believe something with rabid zeal doesn't make it a fact. I know your a little old to be getting this lesson now but try for all your worth to let it soak in and give your unearned ego a rest. You wish for something to stink more than you look for good and there is something fundamentally wrong with men that do that. Somewhere in life you were skipped a valuable lesson and we all have to suffer because of your shortcomings.
 
>Hey Michael,
>Why don't you straighten out desert
>point Brian's post (his post
>wasn't even half-truth)about what "they"
>bought and who's money it
>was?
>This is the kind of crap
>that flows on the WWW.
>
>This ought to be good.
>Zeke


How is it crap as of 2 months ago you could look at their fancy lodge in alaska on their website please tell me what a hunting lodge in alaska has to do with utah conservation

Ok Google the wolf delisting and see what part sfw played it's not hard to find

People say rmef is not a local group sfw has been trying to get their foot in the door in Idaho Arizona wyoming.

I will laugh at you if you try to tell me all of this came from member donations
 
Excuse me....... I'm a kool aid drinker. Been on it for around 12 years now. Some days it tastes great, some days I wish it tasted better.

Image that!

Somedays I wish it tasted better!

Like the days when SFW leadership capitulate to folks like the cute little trouble maker in the back of the school bus!

Like days when they tell my friend Don Peay his personality is bit too strong and too direct for tender toed sportsmen and small minded (not weak minded, small minded because they can never see what must be invested in order to preserve and "regrow" interest in hunting in the hearts of a waning public, more interested in the indoors rather than the outdoors).

I really like the kool aid better when SFW is pro active, rather than re active as they have been in the last three years, attempting to satisfy a few (damn few, in relative terms) who will never be satisfied because they've had their delicate egos ruffled over some stupid thing in the past. Ya I mean the river access, the draw odds, the state wide archery, the 200 tags, the endless issues the 500 pound gorilla has had to "contend with" over the last 20 years. Most guys don't have the stomach for a single dose of conflicting choices in life, let along 22 years of pissing off friends, over one thing or another, let along persevering when even some of his most trusted friend craydad under fire.

I like the kool aid a hell of lot better when SFW is chopping wood and puttin hay in the barn! If you aren't kicking ass in the country right now, somebody else is damn sure kicking yours.

I give a sh!t if you're from Utah, Idaho, Montana, Colorado, Wisconsin, Michigan, California, or any other State, if you think you're an individual, independent, hard ass, stand on your own, motherfather, you ain't squat without political strength, funding, organization, and fearless commitment to your mission, it ain't gonna happen. You don't like the kool aid SFW is pouring, you damn well better find another political, fund raising, ass kicking org to associate yourself with. if you want to do something to grow and preserve hunting and the outdoor way of life because getting on social media, whining, threatening and belittling people that are as a group trying, your doing nothing more than pissing directly in to a strong wind. If your answer is, "I am", and that group's public and private efforts are to under mine a "different group" with a "unique but similar mission" you might consider the taste of whatever it is that your drinking.

If constantly worrying and b!tching about what somebody else is doing make you feel good about yourself, it says a whole hell of a lot, oh yes it do!

Nothing personal intended, but if the underwear fits "wear it".

All the best in your endeavors, Gentlemen!

DC
 
>Topgun,
>
>You are a full of crap
>loudmouth. You have no
>more facts or knowledge than
>anyone else on here.
>You have NOTHING but wild
>accusations and conjecture. Just
>because you believe something with
>rabid zeal doesn't make it
>a fact. I know
>your a little old to
>be getting this lesson now
>but try for all your
>worth to let it soak
>in and give your unearned
>ego a rest. You
>wish for something to stink
>more than you look for
>good and there is something
>fundamentally wrong with men that
>do that. Somewhere in
>life you were skipped a
>valuable lesson and we all
>have to suffer because of
>your shortcomings.

So says the guy that posts not even knowing what was in both tag contract bids and keeps shooting his mouth off, LOL! Sonny the day you teach me anything might only be involving taxidermy, but the more you post I'd swear the glue you use in the shop has ruined what few remaining brain cells you may have had! Anyone that looks into the tax returns alone that these organizations put out can see there is a lot of money going all over the place that isn't on lines saying they have anything to do with wildlife, habitat, or conservation. Try just the one alone that shows close to $500K going out just for consultation fees to the founder, LOL! Ego has nothing to do with my posts on this Forum or particular thread. It's more so that in 30+years that I was involved with LE involving consumer protection that it doesn't take an rocket scientist to look for and see what's going on and wanting it corrected. I'll put up my career righting wrong and helping consumers that have been screwed to your gluing eyeballs in mannekins every day Mr. Troll!
 
Even more troubling was the 2010 donation of $391,000 given to DWR director Jim Karpowitzby by Peay?s first organization, Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife (SFW) just ?moments before the Wildlife Board passed a controversial proposal largely crafted and promoted by SFW to reduce the number of deer-hunting permits by at least 13,000.? The Tribune?s tells us that, in addition, SFW ?recently wrote a check for more than $1 million to the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources.?

Peay and Benson do not have the average Utah hunter in mind either. They get donations to their non-profit organizations from rich donor hunters. Not surprisingly, Peay, recently repudiated the North American model of wildlife management in favor of a privatization of wildlife model. See, for example, ?Sportsmen? stab Theodore Roosevelt in the back. High Country News. By Ben Long. Correspondingly, DWR is more and more giving preferences to rich hunters.

Utah elected offices in general have an air of conflict of interest and corruption about them ? one of the worst in America.

Unlike some states, where you have step aside on a vote if you have a conflict of interest, in Utah you vote yes or no and do not abstain. If you think you have a conflict of interest on a vote, the state?s law says you are supposed to say so at some point before or during the vote. What actually happens is a Utah legislator typical says ?I have a conflict of interest on this mater and I vote (aye, nay) on the bill.? He or she doesn't even have to say what the conflict is. See Utah criminal code on conflict of interest
 
What's this? A level head on MM?
I need to meet this DC dude some day!


Mike, I'm waiting to hear your correction of the very incorrect post of desert Brian's. You have a real propensity to correct folks. Let's see if this time, Michael.

Zeke
 
One of the recipients was State Sen. Ralph Okerlund, R-Monroe, who received $6,500 in campaign contributions from Peay and Ryan Benson, co-founder of Big Game Forever. Okerlund, the Senate majority leader, recommended spending $300,000 this year on Big Game Forever's anti-wolf lobbying campaign.

Figuring out just how much Peay and other officers make in salary or consulting fees is challenging. Money is moved back and forth from nonprofits to private corporations among groups such as Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife, Sportsmen for Habitat, Big Game Forever, Arctic Red River Outfitters, Peay Consulting, World Trophy Outfitters, the Full Curl Society, the Foundation for North American Wild Sheep, seven state chapters of SFW and the Mule Deer Foundation ? which is part of a major wildlife convention where the state gives conservation organizations wildlife tags to auction. The groups get to keep 10 percent of the proceeds for administrative costs. In the case of application fees raised at the 2012 Western Hunting and Conservation Expo, hunters pay in hopes of drawing a difficult-to-get hunting tag, SFW and the Mule Deer Foundation reported $613,572 in expenses of holding the drawing, with the remaining $443,417 actually
 
Some of SFW's fundraising efforts concern me ? especially those taking advantage of hunters' mythical fears that the main reason for the decline in big-game herds, such as mule deer, is predation. Damn the biology or the fact that the reasons deer herds are down are far more complex. Advocating killing wolves, coyotes, cougars and bears to save deer, elk and other big game is a great way to raise funds and gain members. No matter that wiping out predators is ecologically questionable and, except in a few specific units, not particularly effective.

The organization successfully lobbied the Utah Legislature to appropriate general tax dollars as well as raise hunting license fees to increase bounties on coyotes, encouraging the wanton killing of coyotes everywhere. I can't find a single reputable biologist who thinks this action will help deer herds. But the simplistic solution sounds good to uninformed legislators and hunters and helps raise money.

The Utah Legislature also gave an offshoot SFW organization called Big Game Forever a second $300,000 contract to lobby Washington politicians to keep wolves out of Utah. Though a few stray wolves may have wandered into northern Utah, there is no evidence wolves ever are going to be a major problem in the state. There has been no detailed report as to how Big Game Forever spent the first $300,000. The group is not registered to lobby in Washington, D.C.
 
I did know what was in both contract bids. I just wasn't going to pic one little paragraph from one report and decide that was all I needed to know. You were a food investigator. You weren't some FBI badass. You made sure the tomatoes at the grocery were good. YOU DON'T KNOW CRAP. YOU AREN'T A TOUGH GUY. YOU AREN'T GOING TO SOLVE SOME BIG CRIME BY POUNDING SEARCHES INTO YOUR GOOGLER.
 

Similar threads

N
Western Hunt Expo. What is really going on?
2 3
Replies
202
Views
9k
Zim
Zim
Simpleton
Mule Deer Proposal
2
Replies
170
Views
3k
elkassassin
elkassassin

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos

Member Gallery Photos and Videos!

B1D2D894-C288-486D-94B6-4D41F00101C6.jpeg
AF38DD29-B0CA-4F88-857E-18FD5B6E5F1E.jpeg
IMG_9634.jpeg
IMG_9630.jpeg
Screenshot_20220830_095527.jpg
IMG_0156.png
ACD3266A-08B8-467C-9DB9-E16C98C3780E.jpeg
4F045CE9-03BB-493B-998C-57E041BAFD96.jpeg
elk3.jpg
Jacob Montana - jpg.jpg
85407096-5BDD-46EF-9AEB-04B9ECAECBB2.jpeg
ELK 2.jpg
Back
Top Bottom