Hunt expo tags

Tristate said:
It's been posted before. Go look.
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Tri if you could direct me to the post I'd love to read their accounting. I've been to many meetings where Don promised accountability but we got nothing but smoke and mirrors. His favorite response when asked for an accounting is "What have you done for wildlife". I remember when he promised to open the books for Randy Newberg but backed out at the last minute
Wes
 
Wes said:
Tri if you could direct me to the post I'd love to read their accounting. I've been to many meetings where Don promised accountability but we got nothing but smoke and mirrors. His favorite response when asked for an accounting is "What have you done for wildlife". I remember when he promised to open the books for Randy Newberg but backed out at the last minute
Wes
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Go look. It's been posted.

I remember Randy Newberg lying to all of yall and saying RMEF wasn't in competition with SFW.
 
Keystone said:
Ned Ledoux commands a huge appearance fee I've been told?
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I’m sure he does, that why you pay to get to see and listen to him. His fee most like comes out of the fee you pay to attend his performance.

We pay, Ned plays……… that’s how it works any time a performer performs, right?

Do you think Ledoux should sing for you, because you bought a $5 raffle ticket? Sounds like it.
 
2lumpy said:
I’m sure he does, that why you pay to get to see and listen to him. His fee most like comes out of the fee you pay to attend his performance.

We pay, Ned plays……… that’s how it works any time a performer performs, right?

Do you think Ledoux should sing for you, because you bought a $5 raffle ticket? Sounds like it.
Click to expand...

Pretty sure he meant for the fee $fw charges to put on the abortion, that going real cheap on appearance fees gives $fw more profit they keep.
 
2lumpy said:
I’m sure he does, that why you pay to get to see and listen to him. His fee most like comes out of the fee you pay to attend his performance.

We pay, Ned plays……… that’s how it works any time a performer performs, right?

Do you think Ledoux should sing for you, because you bought a $5 raffle ticket? Sounds like it.
Click to expand...


WE pay, Ned plays for sfw.

But if you think a chicken no one ever heard of, and Ledoux who at best is a regional act agent done to keep costs low while still pocketing ton, I can't help you. Outside the Intermountain west, no one knew Chris Ledoux, Ned's less well known.

Don't forget, sfw keeps $3.75 to put on the expo, regardless of what their actual cost is
 
Keystone said:
WE pay, Ned plays for sfw.

But if you think a chicken no one ever heard of, and Ledoux who at best is a regional act agent done to keep costs low while still pocketing ton, I can't help you. Outside the Intermountain west, no one knew Chris Ledoux, Ned's less well known.

Don't forget, sfw keeps $3.75 to put on the expo, regardless of what their actual cost is
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Not that you don’t have every right not to participate, to suggest otherwise would preposterous but when you use the term WE:


“WE pay” presumes you paying to listen to Ned, along with dinner and a seat at the auction.

Your comment suggests your also purchasing $5 raffle tickets.

If you are, you must believe the benefits are worth the investment, if your not buying raffle tickets dinner/auction/entertainment (Ledoux) tickets……… what’s the deal, because it’s my $3.75, and my choice of entertainment. Sorry, I support who and what I want. The fact is, so can you, as it should be. Do what the hell you want with your $3.75……..
 
JB1975 said:
He is frantically searching for more than that screen name.
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You can also search the claims he makes about Newberg/The Don debate.

Newberg goes by Big Finn.

The emails from The Don and Randy posted.

For the new guys, Jason in those exchanges, is Hawkeye in here.


That's why Tri is such a beauty, he thinks there is no proof to challenge his statements "cuz the googler to got no memory"
 
2lumpy said:
Not that you don’t have every right not to participate, to suggest otherwise would preposterous but when you use the term WE:


“WE pay” presumes you paying to listen to Ned, along with dinner and a seat at the auction.

Your comment suggests your also purchasing $5 raffle tickets.

If you are, you must believe the benefits are worth the investment, if your not buying raffle tickets dinner/auction/entertainment (Ledoux) tickets……… what’s the deal, because it’s my $3.75, and my choice of entertainment. Sorry, I support who and what I want. The fact is, so can you, as it should be. Do what the hell you want with your $3.75……..
Click to expand...


"WE" Means the all hunters pay. Those 200 tags come from "We", they cost 200 would be tag holders an opportunity in order to enrich sfw, which is a minority of Utah hunters.

I do not support Sfw in any way, including this one.
 
Keystone said:
"WE" Means the all hunters pay. Those 200 tags come from "We", they cost 200 would be tag holders an opportunity in order to enrich sfw, which is a minority of Utah hunters.

I do not support Sfw in any way, including this one.
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You seem too be a bit narrow in your thinking about the 200 tags. Not sure if that comes from a misunderstanding about the Expo or some other personal experience that has caused you to believe what you’re saying.

Let me explain why I believe that.

The 200 tags do not belong to “we” by your definition of “we”. Then I said “we” I was using the word to refer to the people who choose to buy raffle tickets and pay for a dinner/auction/entertainment activity, at the Expo. You expanded the use of the word to include “hunters”.

Am I right?

I have no problem with you doing that, as long as you have no problem with me doing the same thing. I’ll assume you don’t mind, in as much as if it’s okay for you to do it, you are okay if I do. ?

The 200 tags represent 200 game animals in the State of Utah. Those animals belong to the State of Utah. The State of Utah “represents” all residents, not just the hunters. The residents are represented by the legislature, made up of individuals elected by these residents. The legislature create bureaucracies and bureaucratic systems that manage State resources. The legislature and the bureaucratic system manage wildlife and every other aspect of the State, including economic, public recreation, etc. etc. The 200 tags have been allocated to the Western Hunting Expo by the State’s legislature and it’s bureaucratic system to create recreational opportunities for both residents and none residents of the State of Utah, raise resources to benefit wildlife in the State of Utah, grow economic opportunities for businesses both inside and outside of Salt Lake County, which in turn pay income taxes and property taxes, which are used to benefit all residents of the State of Utah, not just hunters.

Apparently the majority of the legislature and directly involved bureaucratic agencies believe that these things could and would happen when they approved the original allocation of 209 tags and they still believe it today, after many years of doing so.

There are other events the State does that not everyone agrees with. Those that do……. participate. Those that don’t……. don’t. Some benefit from those events, that may come at a loss……. to those choose not to participate.

Life is hard for some. If we’re naive or lack understanding, it’s harder.

So, I’ll repeat what I’ve already said, for you’re benefit. The “we” your referring, that are Utah hunters do not have anymore right to the 200 tags than any other resident does. How the State chooses to disperse them is not in anyway limited to “we” the hunters. Unfortunate or not, it is what it is.

Registering your frustration with the legislature is mostly like your best option.

In the mean time, I’m out of my favorite salsa mix, that I buy at the Expo, so I’ll be buying a few raffle tickets while I’m in the neighbor. That’s providing I can make may way through the large happy group of hunters that are enjoying the event.
 
2lumpy said:
You seem too be a bit narrow in your thinking about the 200 tags. Not sure if that comes from a misunderstanding about the Expo or some other personal experience that has caused you to believe what you’re saying.

Let me explain why I believe that.

The 200 tags do not belong to “we” by your definition of “we”. Then I said “we” I was using the word to refer to the people who choose to buy raffle tickets and pay for a dinner/auction/entertainment activity, at the Expo. You expanded the use of the word to include “hunters”.

Am I right?

I have no problem with you doing that, as long as you have no problem with me doing the same thing. I’ll assume you don’t mind, in as much as if it’s okay for you to do it, you are okay if I do. ?

The 200 tags represent 200 game animals in the State of Utah. Those animals belong to the State of Utah. The State of Utah “represents” all residents, not just the hunters. The residents are represented by the legislature, made up of individuals elected by these residents. The legislature create bureaucracies and bureaucratic systems that manage State resources. The legislature and the bureaucratic system manage wildlife and every other aspect of the State, including economic, public recreation, etc. etc. The 200 tags have been allocated to the Western Hunting Expo by the State’s legislature and it’s bureaucratic system to create recreational opportunities for both residents and none residents of the State of Utah, raise resources to benefit wildlife in the State of Utah, grow economic opportunities for businesses both inside and outside of Salt Lake County, which in turn pay income taxes and property taxes, which are used to benefit all residents of the State of Utah, not just hunters.

Apparently the majority of the legislature and directly involved bureaucratic agencies believe that these things could and would happen when they approved the original allocation of 209 tags and they still believe it today, after many years of doing so.

There are other events the State does that not everyone agrees with. Those that do……. participate. Those that don’t……. don’t. Some benefit from those events, that may come at a loss……. to those choose not to participate.

Life is hard for some. If we’re naive or lack understanding, it’s harder.

So, I’ll repeat what I’ve already said, for you’re benefit. The “we” your referring, that are Utah hunters do not have anymore right to the 200 tags than any other resident does. How the State chooses to disperse them is not in anyway limited to “we” the hunters. Unfortunate or not, it is what it is.

Registering your frustration with the legislature is mostly like your best option.

In the mean time, I’m out of my favorite salsa mix, that I buy at the Expo, so I’ll be buying a few raffle tickets while I’m in the neighbor. That’s providing I can make may way through the large happy group of hunters that are enjoying the event.
Click to expand...


The 200 tags don't represent 200 animals, it represents 200 opportunity to take, or not take an animal.

Also, I believe (I could be wrong) you would have to have a current Utah hunting license to use a tag, making you in fact, a hunter by definition.

Further, the "State" benefits $1.25 from each lotto ticket. In exchange they forfeit the actual tag price, be it R or NR. The state also pays for the advertising for the expo. The state also pays the salaries of all the DWR folks staffing those booths.

I'm sure the state, city, county all offered up tax breaks as well.

So who benefits:

Obviously a tag draw person.

Surrounding hotels/restaurants.

Sfw/mdf


Who loses:

Any county not within a small drive to the expo

200 folks who would otherwise had a tag

The vast majority of hunters whom sfw claims to represent

Yes. I agree originally those tags came via legislature. The expansion of, and contracts offered, have come via the WB and upper management of DWR. BOTH of which have been extremely swayed in sfw direction(hopefully the WB will continue it's independence)


Last. If this expo was such a great thing, such a winner, so great for wildlife, citizens, etc,. Are the other 49 states that don't copy it, just stupid?
 
hossblur said:
The 200 tags don't represent 200 animals, it represents 200 opportunity to take, or not take an animal.

Also, I believe (I could be wrong) you would have to have a current Utah hunting license to use a tag, making you in fact, a hunter by definition.
Click to expand...

Only if you planned on hunting, but someone could purchase a $5 chance and be awarded the right to a permit and that someone could make achoice not to purchase a hunting permit that would make the tag essential useless but also make the tag used.

hossblur said:
"State" benefits $1.25 from each lotto ticket. In exchange they forfeit the actual tag price, be it R or NR.
Click to expand...

The state does not forfeit the tag price, if you are awarded the right to purchase a permit then that individual would have purchase a permit at the going rate, R or NR.
Hossblur
If I misunderstood what you meant there let me know but how it is stated there sounds like you are wrong.
 
notdonhunting said:
Only if you planned on hunting, but someone could purchase a $5 chance and be awarded the right to a permit and that someone could make achoice not to purchase a hunting permit that would make the tag essential useless but also make the tag used.



The state does not forfeit the tag price, if you are awarded the right to purchase a permit then that individual would have purchase a permit at the going rate, R or NR.
Hossblur
If I misunderstood what you meant there let me know but how it is stated there sounds like you are wrong.
Click to expand...

Worded badly

The state forfeits the app fee, in exchange for $1.25 lotto. You didn't misunderstand, I wrote it poorly

And yeah, they could not use a tag, which is why I said that tag isn't an animal, it's an opportunity (or not)

Tell me this. Does Sanpete, Sevier, Juan, Beaver, San Juan counties get from the expo?

SLC benefits. But if, as lumpy said, this benefits the state, how? And I mean the counties.
 
hossblur said:
Worded badly

The state forfeits the app fee, in exchange for $1.25 lotto. You didn't misunderstand, I wrote it poorly

And yeah, they could not use a tag, which is why I said that tag isn't an animal, it's an opportunity (or not)

Tell me this. Does Sanpete, Sevier, Juan, Beaver, San Juan counties get from the expo?

SLC benefits. But if, as lumpy said, this benefits the state, how? And I mean the counties.
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I'm sure every one of those county's have had thousands of acres of habitat improvement with money raised at the expo.
 
JakeH said:
Personally I like the extra opportunity to draw for hunts I probably wouldn't ever have the chance to hunt if they was in the draw. I know lots of people that have drawn tags in the past one of these years i will be one of the lucky ones.

I Really could care less about the expo, but since I'm there, I usually spend a day wandering around to check things out. But if the tags wasn't available I wouldn't make the 3 hour trip over every year.
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There is the hypocrisy. As long as you can get tags you'll ignore all the crap about the expo and SFW
 
hossblur said:
Worded badly

The state forfeits the app fee, in exchange for $1.25 lotto. You didn't misunderstand, I wrote it poorly

And yeah, they could not use a tag, which is why I said that tag isn't an animal, it's an opportunity (or not)

Tell me this. Does Sanpete, Sevier, Juan, Beaver, San Juan counties get from the expo?

SLC benefits. But if, as lumpy said, this benefits the state, how? And I mean the counties.
Click to expand...
I figured it was worded wrong but I needed you to clarify.?
Some of the communities from St George to Nephi along the I-15 corridor probably gets a small amount of revenue with individuals traveling to the EXPO.

I will not argue that the way the last contract was handled was wrong. The State of Utah screwed up and should have awarded the contract to the RMEF.
But I personally believe the money's that is created for conservation of huntable wildlife is worth the 200 tags at the EXPO that any one has a chance of receiving.
We have heard over and over again about how the DWR could put on the drawing of these permits. If the DWR handled the drawing then the money would go into the general budget and that money would be spent on more things than conservation for huntable wildlife.
It is kind of nice to be able to put in for elk, deer big horn sheep, Buffalo, antelope and have hope that you might hunt some other species that is different than the one species that you apply in for during the state regular draw.
Right or wrong, that is my opinion
 
hossblur said:
So none of them want to create the Serengeti of the West? Hard to believe a small group of special interests are so much wiser than all other state agencies nationwide.
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A tag distribution model isn't a wildlife management plan. Quit mixing this up and you may start understanding how foolish your arguments are.
 
ORIONTHEHUNTER said:
Not what i said but nice try. Its the guys who complain about SFW and the crooked expo but then go so they can try to get at a tag. Seems like hypocrisy to me not sure what you would call it?
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I don't think jakeh was complaining about the 200 permits in fact he clearly stated he liked the permits and the 200 permits was the only reason he drives 3 hours to participate.
No hypocrisy there. That was my point.
To be fair there is plenty of hypocrisy to go around.
 
I don’t think JakeH is showing hypocrisy. He specifically stated he likes the extra chance.

I complain about the expo and SFW and I want the tags returned to the public draw. I have played the lotto for tags.

I 100% admit there is some hypocrisy there. If I thought there was any chance of removing those tags and getting them back to the draw if people stopped applying, then I’d do that myself. If half as many people applied, the state would simply approve them increasing the app fee to $10 each.

Heck, now that I’ve said it out loud, they’ll probably do it anyway and only give $1.50 back to the state still.

If there are tags to be drawn, I want a chance. Is it hypocritical? Probably. We all have our hypocrisy.
 
ORIONTHEHUNTER said:
Doubtful
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You would be surprised I guarantee it.

I have seen the lists of projects over the years, and there isn't a corner of this state that has not received money from SFW for habitat projects.

ORIONTHEHUNTER said:
There is the hypocrisy. As long as you can get tags you'll ignore all the crap about the expo and SFW
Click to expand...
How is anything I said hypocritical??? I like the expo, I like the extra opportunity for tags I would never ever have a shot at otherwise.
I don't mind SFW, don't always agree with everything they do and when I don't I voice my opinion on that stuff.
There are other things I like and I publicly voice that as well.
Not sure why you chose to single me out.

ORIONTHEHUNTER said:
Not what i said but nice try. Its the guys who complain about SFW and the crooked expo but then go so they can try to get at a tag. Seems like hypocrisy to me not sure what you would call it?
Click to expand...
You haven't seen me complain about SFW not as a whole at any rate, Like I said I have spoken up when I disagree but have also given a lot of support over the years.
 
Your right I shouldn't have called you out specifically. I still stand by the fact that I believe it's super hypocritical when guys get on here and complain about the expo and SFW, but then stand in line to apply for tags and spend money there.
 
ORIONTHEHUNTER said:
Your right I shouldn't have called you out specifically. I still stand by the fact that I believe it's super hypocritical when guys get on here and complain about the expo and SFW, but then stand in line to apply for tags and spend money there.
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There’s a handful OTH but under 50 I’d wage. Out of all that go, it doesn’t amount to a hill over beans and those hypocrites certainly aren’t going to make a dent in the over all money that changes hands there. A faction of 1% I would guess.

My hell OTH, we can all be truthfully labeled hypocrites over something in our lives. We all do it and if we’re put under a microscope it would most likely shock the hell out of us as to how often we do it.

Maybe you don’t but if not I’m damn proud of you and I would suggest you’re one in 50 million or more.

I have no problem that you don’t support the Expo or one of organizing groups, or the Expo’s participants, but to point out as hypocrites a handful MM guys, is just a wee bit disingenuous….. in my mind.
 
Tristate said:
Go look. It's been posted.

I remember Randy Newberg lying to all of yall and saying RMEF wasn't in competition with SFW.
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Randy’s correct. RMEF doesn’t need state expo tags to exist as an organization. It is no competition. SFW exists because of public welfare tags they get handed every year.

I don’t go to the expo. The way handing out the expo tags went last time was about as corrupt and ridiculous as it comes.
 
Last edited:
Oneye said:
Randy’s correct. RMEF doesn’t need state expo tags to exist as an organization. It is no competition.

I don’t go to the expo. The way handing out the expo tags went last time was about as corrupt and ridiculous as it comes.
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???????
 
While surfing the KSL adds this morning I found an add for an Expo discount for product which we've purchased in the past. I thought about buying their products again but after seeing they support the expo I sent them an email letting them know I could not support a company that supports SFW or the Expo in any way would would no longer purchase their products. Just my little stand.
Wes
 
Wes said:
While surfing the KSL adds this morning I found an add for an Expo discount for product which we've purchased in the past. I thought about buying their products again but after seeing they support the expo I sent them an email letting them know I could not support a company that supports SFW or the Expo in any way would would no longer purchase their products. Just my little stand.
Wes
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Wes, I understand your commitment to not making any contributions, at the Expo or else where. I really do. Just curious how far you are willing to hold the line, so to speak. Are there other’s you would hold out buying from besides this particular product provider.

Is there any product provider you “would buy” from….. that make money at the Expo?

Who would you buy from, if you found out they were selling products or services at the Epxo, or is your answer, “no one, I wouldn’t buy from any of them”.

Think about it a minute before you answer, if you like. It is something you may wish give more thought to, just saying.
 
2lumpy said:
Wes, I understand your commitment to not making any contributions, at the Expo or else where. I really do. Just curious how far you are willing to hold the line, so to speak. Are there other’s you would hold out buying from besides this particular product provider.

Is there any product provider you “would buy” from….. that make money at the Expo?

Who would you buy from, if you found out they were selling products or services at the Epxo, or is your answer, “no one, I wouldn’t buy from any of them”.

Think about it a minute before you answer, if you like. It is something you may wish give more thought to, just saying.
Click to expand...
I understand why companies go to the Expo. A lot of the small ones sell a majority of their stuff at this. So I don’t hold any grudges against the companies involved. Just against the state from bold face telling us 50% is better than 100% guarantee of money, and telling us we’re welcome they hand the tags to SFW in totally unreasonable fashion. SFW and the state are my gripe here. It’s why I simply won’t go. Would have attended and spent plenty on applying and at the expo had the state did the right thing the last time around.
 
2lumpy said:
Wes, I understand your commitment to not making any contributions, at the Expo or else where. I really do. Just curious how far you are willing to hold the line, so to speak. Are there other’s you would hold out buying from besides this particular product provider.

Is there any product provider you “would buy” from….. that make money at the Expo?

Who would you buy from, if you found out they were selling products or services at the Epxo, or is your answer, “no one, I wouldn’t buy from any of them”.

Think about it a minute before you answer, if you like. It is something you may wish give more thought to, just saying.
Click to expand...
He ain't gonna get much hunting done if he holds that line lol.
 
Oneye said:
All SFW is, is an organization that exists solely off one convention a year where it’s handed 200 tags to exist as a welfare organization sucking off the public.
Click to expand...

That's not entirely true.

They get another couple dozen for their banquets
 
2lumpy said:
Do you remember when RMEF bought a ranch in New Mexico, and used it to hunt elk for RMEF executives?
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RMEF never bought that ranch, it was left in an estate donation. Also, RMEF execs were not allowed to hunt it. They sold it when the family that donated it agreed to establish an endowment with the funds. An endowment that can only be spent on conservation projects.
 
2lumpy said:
Do you remember when RMEF bought a ranch in New Mexico, and used it to hunt elk for RMEF executives?
Click to expand...
Fake news. You might have them confused with the NRA and their ranch in New Mexico where owners of gun companies that make large donations fly into a small nearby airport and come hunt. I know of one such company that has those elk heads on display in their facility. I have no problem with the NRA using their money to fund these hunts they do not have any of my money.
 
SS! said:
you’re the one making the accusations. Tell us since you seem to remember such.
Click to expand...
? No accusation. I don’t know, just asking if the guys making accusations remembered if another org. had been accused by anyone.
 
From 10 years ago -

"I sit on the RMEF board of directors, so feel free to ask if I can provide any answers. Most of the questions are answered in the link someone provided above to the Outdoor Life article.

RMEF received the ranch from the estate of Mr. Torestenson. The transfer and acceptance came with many restriction, one of which required a conservation easement be placed on the ranch to prevent impairment of the wildlife values of the property. When RMEF owned the ranch, they granted the protective conservation easement to Mule Deer Foundation, as you cannot hold your an easement on property you own. Since the sale happened last year, MDF has transferred the easement to RMEF, and now RMEF is on the hook for monitoring and enforcement of the terms and convenants of that easement places on the land.

RMEF could have decided to not accept the land, due to the restrictions that wold come with the land and the complications of running a ranch. RMEF knew they were not experienced at running a ranch operation and it would be a challenge. But, protecting the land in perpetuity was most important to RMEF and the family, so RMEF accepted the ranch, with the many restrictions/challenges, and worked to protect it.

Now that it is sold, some things to know about those sale proceeds.

The sales proceeds are held in a restricted endowment where RMEF can only use money when it has positive earnings. NONE OF THE PRINCIPAL FROM THE SALE CAN BE TOUCHED BY RMEF.

RMEF can only use earnings, which is capped at no more than 5% of the trust balance, annually. So, if the endowment fund loses money, RMEF gets none. If it only makes 2%, RMEF only gets 2%. If it makes 25%, RMEF only gets 5%. The family has set rules as to what RMEF mission-related work the money can be used for, and none of it can be used for overhead or administration.

This is how it should be. The Torstenson Family has been remarkably generous and committed to conservation. Whatever they want with the proceeds of this sale is how it should happen. It is their legacy and it should reflect the values they want expressed.

Though I was not on the board when the decision was made to accept the donation of this ranch, if that situation arose today, I would vote to accept the ranch and take the PR hit RMEF has taken by owning this ranch over the last decade.

In the end, nearly 100,000 acres of critical elk habitat gets put under conservation easement; a large restricted endownment is established that allows more conservation work to be acccomplished. To me, that is what is best for elk and other wildlife, and if it means a few PR hits to get it done, then so be it. That is the mission of RMEF and what conservation leadership is about.

Now, the goal is to find ways to use the endowment earnings in projects that fulfill the family legacy and serve the RMEF mission.
My name is Randy Newberg and I approved this post. What is written is my opinion, and my opinion only.

"Hunt when you can. You're gonna run out of health before you run out of money."
 

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